Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Dustin Acuff wrote: .... I tend to agree with whoever said that trapping range is very narrow and easily blasted through ....

I never disagreed with it; I had the very same message drilled into me in Wing Chun and Kali classes. Like I said, tools for the tool box.

Trapping, BTW, alos figures into the empty hand portion of Kali, and something else an Aiki* person would have to contend with in that situation, so it all comes back to the original topic.

The only time you will ever need to use Wing Chun type traps is if you happen to find yourself fighting a Wing Chun man who is occupying center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear JKD concepts people refer to trapping, they are talking about an entry, straight blast, head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao or lop sao. Guru Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Burt Richardson, Erik Paulson, and Matt Thornton all train this way, thats basically what JKD concepts are all about, simple, direct, effectiveness We have found that trapping is really more of a range than a technique, so many things were dropped or re worked from traditional Wing Chun trapping methods. If anything, Kali, Muay Thai, and BJJ seem to be used more these days in terms of stand up trapping/grappling/clinch range, as far as a JKD concepts man goes that is.

Correction: my data says at least Thornton and Paulson have even abandoned the straight blast and entry concepts as they are addressed in JKD or JKD concepts.

Matt and Erik are using a variation called a "boxing blast" it is used prior to a neck tie up. Actually you will see many MMA/NHB fighters doing this.

By the way, if any of you are ever up around Portland, drop in the Straight Blast Gym! Matt Thornton is one of the best when it comes to training with aliveness!

P.S. Tell him the guys at JKDU sent ya, youll get an extra hard workout lol

Jay Mills wrote: By the way, if any of you are ever up around Portland ....

Thanks, but which one? Maine or Oregon?

Oregon

www.straightblastgym.com
www.straightblastgym.net

You may also want to check out Team Quest in the same area, ask for Robert Follis.

http://www.tqfc.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

Yup Jay, but it's a different thing At least Matt himself has said it's a different thing and if you watch Belfort vs. Silva then...

Well Jorx, i have trained at the Straight Blast Gym as well as with Erik Paulson, and im telling you from experience that they are doing a variation upon the same theme! It still boils down to range before the clinch, sometimes you blast through using elbows knees and heabutts to a neck tie, sometimes you use a boxing blast, and other times your at the clinch without eaither. It all depends upon posistion and how things are unfolding, thats aliveness!
Yea Belfort trained to be an olympic boxer, what did ya think he was doing that night, typical boxing blast! Good way to get a 44 sec knockout against a fighter like Silva!

You misunderstood me Jay
I didn't mean it is different from the boxing blast, I meant Matt and Rodney King for example differentiate the straight blast from the boxing blast.

Very true, sorry for the misunderstanding!

I also wanted to add that in the middle of one of Guru Inosantos classes a student remarked that trapping seemed useless! Dan replyed by saying that he wouldnt use trapping in an unarmed encounter, BUT, it is an excellent tool for knife and stick fighting, it develops great attributes!

QUOTE]Jo staff might be interesting, but I don't think too many aikidoka probably really know how to apply the Jo very well against escrima sticks moving at full speed.[/quote]

I disagree...

basically to say that as long as both practitioners have the same skill level, then the fight could be classed as a draw as they both are using 4 foot weapons (its just that the kali guy is using his in two separate pieces).

when the kali guy strikes yokomen, jo guy would defend, step back and strike, thus opening the distance.

Jo guy strikes yokomen, kali guy blocks with his left stick, steps in and strikes with his right whilst maintaining the contact with the left (thus closing the distance)

To say that one one has an advantage over the other is nonsense. they both in theory can win!

I remember a time working in a nightclub where two people were fighting. One person picked up a bottle and the other guy who was fighting came charging at him and he dropped it. He was the one then becoming scared and unable to follow through his attack.

The guy with the bottle HAD the advantage! He also could have been an untrained fighter, who know. Maybe a trained fighter would have acted differently, ie, didn't fight in the first place.

Dustin Acuff wrote: Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

Jennifer Smith wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

You hit the target Jensei.

Rod Lansangan wrote: You hit the target Jensei.

Aw, shucks. Garsh,garsh,garsh.....

thanks

Jennifer Smith wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

Of course sometimes.. this is what happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWD4mAwiOk

Note: I love the way that this scene is actually two homages to previous films, the first of course is the scene previously posted from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (even the music is the same), but the second is a nod to "Star Wars IV: A New Hope" (Where Han and Chewie chase the Stormtroopers in the Death Star).
Had to provide additional commentary as per the guidelines for posting video links.

Cromwell Salvatera wrote: Boxing wise. Escrima or Kali will win. It is called Mano Mano. The idea of escrima is you train with weapons both hands with either kali (Sticks) or Gulok (machette), the better one gets the shorter the weapon gets, until it becomes a Patalim (dagger length) and balisong (butterfly knives). Hence by the time the 'Escrimador' will get to empty hand they are very good, very fast, and overwhelming. Not really a good idea for static aikido. Aikidoka has to move with escrimador. We have practiced with boken and Jo against Kali. Boken wise or aikiken wise it is pretty even. I find it hard that I commit to cut or tsuki with either yokomen or shomen, and the escrimador was just feinting. A lot Ai utch (mutual kill) though, and sore foreheads if trained with speed. There is a strong wood almost mystical to the point of legendary called kamagong. The Filipinos used to support train tracks with it, and apparently if one throws it in water, it sinks. Very strong, it can actually take on a boken with weight of the cuts. When the escrimador uses walong palo (eight cuts) it will rain hits, very quick very hard to block with a boken. I tcan even break a good boken if the kamagong is used. However if aikidoka uses a katana it will be different story. Then again the escrimador can shift to the Gulok, and it could get even again. With the Jo, escrimador lost. I broke my set of Kalis. Very expensive mistake. I had to wait til my next trip to the Phils to get new ones. Escrimadors cannot dodge or block Toma huch, and we sent kalis flying with normal jo blocks. The length aspect is a winner. The escrimador found it hard to enter. Taijutsu aikidoka wins, especially the grappling aspect of it. our ikyo, nikyo, and sankyo is just too irresistable. Escrimadors have a karate and judo version of grappling. Our aikido grappling is just beautifully genuine and effective. just my two cents

Props to you Cromwell. I used to train extensively in Arnis & Mano-mano and I have to say, I'm not sure if I know more than you do (and I'm a Filipino). I admire you for having a strong interest in our martial arts.

Inocencio Maramba wrote: Of course sometimes.. this is what happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWD4mAwiOk Note: I love the way that this scene is actually two homages to previous films, the first of course is the scene previously posted from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (even the music is the same), but the second is a nod to "Star Wars IV: A New Hope" (Where Han and Chewie chase the Stormtroopers in the Death Star). Had to provide additional commentary as per the guidelines for posting video links.

Oh yes.....I remember my sankyu demo so well,too....and that randori at the end. Whew.....They just don't do it like that anymore...LOL.

OK, I'll leave this thread to the 'big dogs'.

Whats next... wait let me guess...ah.... Aikido vs a Ninja Turtle?

........well Aikido techniques would work well against say Leonardo but... Donatello is a totally different story!!!

O-sensei vs. Master Splinter - that's what I would like to see!

Rafael Ayala wrote: O-sensei vs. Master Splinter - that's what I would like to see!

he he he. Maybe Aikido vs. BJJ (Aikidoka stays still waiting for an attack, Jitz guy drops to his back waiting for the Aikidoka to go down onto his guard.

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: he he he. Maybe Aikido vs. BJJ (Aikidoka stays still waiting for an attack, Jitz guy drops to his back waiting for the Aikidoka to go down onto his guard.

After five minutes of that, they give up and go for a beer.

R

Too funny....but you know, I could see this happening!

Another point i would like to add to this, it's a passageby miyamoto musashi, from the book of 5 rings!

People put virtue into the length of a long sword/jo etc and think they can win by their distance from their opponent. For this reason they prefer a longer weapon, a common saing " A hand longer by an inch has the advantage" is information quoted by those who do not the martial arts. Without knowing the principles of the martial arts, they would win at a distance by using a longer sword. Because of their weak hearts.
When the opponent rushes in then the longer your sword the less efficient it becomes. Accordingly you will be unable to handle your sword freely, it becomes so much baggage, and you will be at a disadvantage to a man with a short sword.

What if you were in a place with short top, bottom and sides with your long sword? or if you were intent on using a long sword butonly had a short sword you may come to doubt your martial art and enter a bad frame of mind.

Remember the large goes with the small, it is not a matter of disliking the longer weapons, but a matter of disliking the mind that PREFERS the long, a long sword is like having many men in battle, while the short sword is only a few men, Do large and small armies meet in battle?

In martial arts we dislike such one-siednessand narrowness of minds!

"....as long as both practitioners have the same skill level, then the fight could be classed as a draw as they both are using 4 foot weapons (its just that the kali guy is using his in two separate pieces).

when the kali guy strikes yokomen, jo guy would defend, step back and strike, thus opening the distance.

Jo guy strikes yokomen, kali guy blocks with his left stick, steps in and strikes with his right whilst maintaining the contact with the left (thus closing the distance)...."

I agree with Graham Butt on this. I think that as long as the guy with the shorter weapons can penetrate the maximum reach of the longer weapon, then he is straight onto the advantage. However, if the guy with the longer weapon can keep the opponent on the tip of his weapon, then he will remain on the advantage and will result in a draw.

I think it would also be possible to utilise empty hands aikido against kali, despite the speed of kali but again this all boils down the skill level of the practitioners. i find kali very useful for sticky contact and trapping, as i did with aikido and when sparring, can feel where my opponent wants to go whether using aikido or kali.

Basically my opinion is that it all boils down to the skill of both practitioners.