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Old 07-13-2005, 03:14 PM   #1
DustinAcuff
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Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:36 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

you will get your ass kicked using empty hand aikido tactics. end of discussion.

Skilled guy who has sticks trumps guy who does not.

Sure, in theory it is possible to do "perfect aikido" and beat the guy...but my bet is the guy with sticks!

Jo staff might be interesting, but I don't think too many aikidoka probably really know how to apply the Jo very well against escrima sticks moving at full speed.

That said, I think aikido is very complimentary to escrima/kali.

Big thing with martial arts training, especially when you start talking full speed, reality based training against mixed tactics such as aikido and escrima is to remember that

1. there are no rules.
2. He who has the advantage will usually win.
3. find the advantage however you can. that might involve picking up an object, finding a buddy, or running..be creative and don't restrict yourself to the paradigm of your training.
4. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, or empty hands to a knife fight.
5. Refer to rule #1...there are no rules.
6. Don't stand and fight unless you know you can win. Better to run and live or appologize, buy time, or beg for mercy than get pounded. Better to retreat and return for another day when you can win.
7. Don't fight for real ever if you don't have to.
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:09 PM   #3
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Kevin,

I haven't seen a better post in a long, long time. Well said.

Chuck Clark
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Old 07-13-2005, 05:36 PM   #4
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I know a few aikidoka that do combine kali/escrima with their aikido training, and by principle, both are complimentary to each other.

I have been to a Dog Brothers tournament where a guy with a bo (little bit longer than our aikijo) went against a guy with a stick and knife. To win with a jo is to use its length against a short range weapons of course. I'm not sure how skilled the stick/knife guy was, but the bo fella kept him away until he used a shomen cut about 6 feet away and hit s/k guy on the middle of the his head.

Until then, I was convinced that aikiweapons won't work against other systems...but that gave me hope.

Anybody starts weilding two sticks at you with grace and confidence..run. But if he looks like an idiot doing it, maybe you take your chance...unless he's playing possum.

Rod
"Man who catch fly with chopstick accomplish anything." -- Miyagi Sensei
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:26 PM   #5
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Boxing wise. Escrima or Kali will win. It is called Mano Mano. The idea of escrima is you train with weapons both hands with either kali (Sticks) or Gulok (machette), the better one gets the shorter the weapon gets, until it becomes a Patalim (dagger length) and balisong (butterfly knives). Hence by the time the 'Escrimador' will get to empty hand they are very good, very fast, and overwhelming. Not really a good idea for static aikido. Aikidoka has to move with escrimador.

We have practiced with boken and Jo against Kali. Boken wise or aikiken wise it is pretty even. I find it hard that I commit to cut or tsuki with either yokomen or shomen, and the escrimador was just feinting. A lot Ai utch (mutual kill) though, and sore foreheads if trained with speed. There is a strong wood almost mystical to the point of legendary called kamagong. The Filipinos used to support train tracks with it, and apparently if one throws it in water, it sinks. Very strong, it can actually take on a boken with weight of the cuts. When the escrimador uses walong palo (eight cuts) it will rain hits, very quick very hard to block with a boken. I tcan even break a good boken if the kamagong is used. However if aikidoka uses a katana it will be different story. Then again the escrimador can shift to the Gulok, and it could get even again.

With the Jo, escrimador lost. I broke my set of Kalis. Very expensive mistake. I had to wait til my next trip to the Phils to get new ones.
Escrimadors cannot dodge or block Toma huch, and we sent kalis flying with normal jo blocks. The length aspect is a winner. The escrimador found it hard to enter.

Taijutsu aikidoka wins, especially the grappling aspect of it. our ikyo, nikyo, and sankyo is just too irresistable. Escrimadors have a karate and judo version of grappling. Our aikido grappling is just beautifully genuine and effective.

just my two cents

Last edited by Tubig : 07-13-2005 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:42 PM   #6
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

The only problem with sticks is, you have to carry the sticks at all times. This would be kind of hard to do in a dance club doing the macranina, or at a violent christmas family reunion etc...
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:56 PM   #7
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Lol. Hear here Roy.

Also there is one aspect of Arnis De Mano or Kali training that Aikido has an advantage... drum rolls please........

UKEMI!!!!!. Kokyu nage, Koshinage, Kukyu Nage, kote gaeshi, and my favourite kumi nage can really be hard if one can't do ukemi out of it. Especially on concrete. OUCH!
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Old 07-13-2005, 10:35 PM   #8
Tubig
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

By the way. If anyone sees any escrimador using a kriss. RUN! it is very deadly.
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:13 AM   #9
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Yes, I will run if being attacked with a Kriss! Here's something many aikido people use that you should run away from. If you are ever in a dark alley, and you are approached by an Aikidoka brandishing a samurai sword, I would also suggest that you run your ass off, whether or not you are armed with sticks with a Kriss
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:30 AM   #10
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Lol. Um..excuse me....if you see a escrimador using any kind of bladed object dont you run anyway?

Solution to not being able to carry kali's all the time: use drum sticks?

I understand aikido has ukemi for a reason, but anyone have any idea how to get a hold of the pesky stick swingin little bugger?
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Old 07-14-2005, 01:01 AM   #11
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Yes, I do! Chop the swinging little bugger with a samurai sword.
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:11 AM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

it is difficult to get in to get ahold of the sticks, but basically you need to close distance rapidily and clinch so he cannot hit you. from the clinch there are a multitude of things you can do. Biggest thing is to realize you will get hit, it will hurt, so you cannot hesitate and must go in fast and violently. Protect vital areas as you get hit.

Really the clinch is not much different from kokyu and irimi tenkan, just done a little closer in
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Old 07-14-2005, 06:49 PM   #13
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I agree with Kevin. Get in quick and dirty. You can also use Judo throws or leg lifts to throw him over and from there on the ground, you will have even more options. Do philipino stick martial arts clubs generally include ground fighting in the classes?
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:59 PM   #14
AikiSean!
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

From what I understand, Kali praftioners apply the exact same techniques with weapons, as without. They strike very very well empty handed applying the same principles.
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:18 PM   #15
Tubig
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I am not sure actually if they have ground work. I have never heard of ground work in arnis de mano and escrima. I do not think they do ground work as extensive as jujutsu or wrestling. I also noticed that they do not train on mats, hence they do not really do ukemis. However I noticed that they have and specialised in the same maai fighting distance as aiki. You are right though, they hit and hard and accurately and a lot of it. If you watch 'Bourne Identity I and II' They used Escrima and arnis de mano for the fighting scenes. In fact they used Mano mano for most of the fighting scenes. Mano mano is an effective empty hand or boxing fighting style. Trust me I have tasted it literally in the streets of Manila. I haven't really seen the Visayans (Visaya is the birth place of the art) fight it off, because I am not from there though.

Last edited by Tubig : 07-14-2005 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 07-15-2005, 10:35 AM   #16
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Hi all,
I've been reading the forums for a year now, but I didn't want to join until I had actually started training in Aikido. I've been doing Aikido for only a little over a month, but I've been studying Remy Presas's Modern Arnis for over four years.

There is a story arnisadors like to tell about Professor Presas when he was young in the Philipines. He used to accept challanges in those days. One of the men challenging him was an expert in the Sinawali style, using two sticks in the fast weaving patterns often thought of as the signature of the Filipino arts. He was weaving very fast creating a wall of sticks in front of him. Professor Presas simply used a long stick and crashed right down the middle on top of the other guys head, knocking him out.

Back to Aikido, I can't speak as an authority at all, not even having kyu rank yet, but I would think that a similar strategy would work with a jo or a ken. From my FMA experience, we are taught that when going weapon vs weapon, it is often best not to block the weapon or to attack the body right away, but to destroy the other's weapon hand or arm. The superior reach of the Japanese weapons would be good for this strategy.

Also, I wouldn't assume double stick on the part of the FMA practitioner. As an Arnisador, I would feel most confident going after an Aikidoka with a single stick. That is when the "live" empty hand really comes in, and when the trapping and stick grappling get fast and furious. Still, I think in this case, the Aikidoka would do best focusing on tai sabaki and irimi, taking the Arnisador's center right away. There is little chance the Aikidoka's hands are faster and better trained than this particular oponent, but he or she is likely better at maintaining their own balance and taking that of their Filipino adversary.

Just my thoughts. Again, I am a rank novice at Aikido, and still only a student of Arnis.

Sincerely,
Stan Archacki
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Old 07-15-2005, 12:29 PM   #17
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts?
With all the stories that I've read about Ueshiba, I have a hard time believing he couldn't beat any of them...being that he's Aikido, that's the bar to compare to.
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Old 07-16-2005, 12:44 AM   #18
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I agree completely Jean, I'm just curious about how to go about it, and there have been a number of replys outlining do's and dont's from people who know what they're talking about more than I do.

Well said though!
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:17 PM   #19
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
We normally have stuff come up like Aikido vs Muai Thai JKD TKD Boxing BJJ Judo, etc. I got to wondering, what about the philipino knife/stick arts? Even my sensei has little idea how it could be done without suffering too much. Anyone who has trained escrima or another similar art have any idea how to deal with a skilled practitioner wielding two sticks/knives?
You would be in serious trouble, to say the least. The main issue WRT sticks IMHO is the speed of the weapon -- in combat, the tip will be coming at you anywhere from 120 to 200 miles an hour, and it's not unusual to change direction very quickly. You may not even see it; you may not have a lot of time to deal with it. Knives are lethal -- period. You would be hard pressed not to be cut up real bad, perhaps fatally so.

Also remember that systems like LaCoste/Inosanto Kali are comprehensive systems dealing with many weapons and many categories of empty hand tehcnique. So in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY EVENT you ended up in altercation with a "highly skilled" FMA person, he or she would have a heckuva lot of tricks up their sleeves, some easier to deal with than others.

I'm not saying up or down which "side" would win (thank you, BTW, for giving me a renewed appreciation for the wishbone's point of view), but pointing out the difficulties you would face.

That said, do you really have to worry about this? I'd wager that any Kali/FMA people in your area are earnestly training in their arts just as you are training in Aikido; and especially anyone with Guro Dan Inosanto in their lineage (like me) would be more inclined to crosstrain in Aikido (like me) then try to start a fight (like some yahoo who'd have no busniess in either art).
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:20 PM   #20
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Do philipino stick martial arts clubs generally include ground fighting in the classes?
I can't speak for other systems, but LaCoste/Inosanto Kali does. It's part of the grappling system, Dumog.

I keep saying that although Kali begins with the stick, it's about everything, really. You name it, they got it!
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Old 07-17-2005, 12:23 AM   #21
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Mike, unfortunately not all the people in my immediate area have the best mentality. A good portion do not. I live 40 minutes from Fresno and 2 hrs from Stockton, home of Antonio Somera and known as the cradle of Kali in north america. Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot. I'm asking in general for informative purposes, but being an EMT who will soon be in LA I need to know what I can just for that "what if".

Just to clarify, most of the people who are seeking the art for knowledge are probably good people, but this is something that people who are only first or second generation immigrants teach out of their basements. Those are the people who scare me.
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Old 07-17-2005, 07:30 PM   #22
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Mike, unfortunately not all the people in my immediate area have the best mentality. A good portion do not. I live 40 minutes from Fresno and 2 hrs from Stockton, home of Antonio Somera and known as the cradle of Kali in north america. Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot. I'm asking in general for informative purposes, but being an EMT who will soon be in LA I need to know what I can just for that "what if".

Just to clarify, most of the people who are seeking the art for knowledge are probably good people, but this is something that people who are only first or second generation immigrants teach out of their basements. Those are the people who scare me.
Oh, I see. Well, you're right, I can't help you, because the only Kali people I know are out here in Central New York and connected with Guro Dan Inosanto.

If you haven't done so already, your best bet would be to see what you can find out from LA law enforcement or EMT guys about what they typically run into on calls involoving Filipino Americans. Obviously, if a lot of guys are beaten, stabbed, choked, or otherwise obliterated by Filipino American suspects, there is cause for concern. However, not every Filipino American is a Filipino martial artists; some of the old timers didn't teach what they knew and those strands of knowledge died out. Guro Kevin Seaman likes to tell the story about how when Guro Dan went home to Stockton to look into FMA (at the urging of Ed Parker), he was very surprised (to put it mildly) to find out that his father, his uncle(s), and even the barber who had cut his hair since he was a little kid were all FMA masters! "But we didn't think you were interested," his barber said. "You were more interested in the football and the baseball. So we didn't teach you anything!"

Obviously, Guro Dan got his jaw reconnected to his skull afterwards. Point is, yeah, it's a cause for concern, but maybe not one to panic about. The law enforcement and EMT guys out there will give you a better idea about what you're most likely to run into than some anecdotes about scary masters. As to a "what if," I can't think of anything to suggest that you could learn right away, assuming I could even describe it over the 'net, so for the short term, mind what you know: Pay attention to everything you've been yelled at other than the techniques, like the initial entry and zanshin.

For the long term, once in LA (assuming you're moving there; mea culpa if I'm wrong on that point), you could take Kali at the Inosanto Academy ( http://www.inosanto.com ); that combined with continued training in Aikido/Aikijutsu will help you.

Sorry I couldn't help more; hope this is useful.
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:32 PM   #23
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
The main issue WRT sticks IMHO is the speed of the weapon -- in combat, the tip will be coming at you anywhere from 120 to 200 miles an hour, and it's not unusual to change direction very quickly.
In Aikido, we don't worry about the tip of the sword...or the jo...or the whatever. They are extensions of the ego. Master the ego, you'll own the toy it plays with...even sticks.

Or, if you don't like that way of saying it, the body doesn't move unexpectedly--even if it's just a fraction of a second--there's notice of movement...that's one of the things Aikidoka are training to catch.
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:41 PM   #24
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

One of the things that I noticed in my introduction to sticks was that there are a lot more angles than I thought, and some of the ones that didn't look like much, turned out to be pretty nasty. While a stick in untrained hands is likely to come in a path akin to a shomen or yokomen, in the hands of a trained fighter, the angles might be something you are a little less used to seeing.

Chris
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:44 PM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Jean,

I certainly understand what you are saying philsophically..but extensions of the ego, or not....you had better be focused on the "here and now" and protecting your own ego (body) if you have some skilled sticks flying at you.

Most aikidoka are not trained to catch sticks...as much as we'd like to think we are good enough to see those movement in a moment of mushin..I have yet to see this demonstrated very effectively with full force.

In a dojo, in a controlled environment...yes.....in a full on assault..no.

Maybe you could hook up with the Dog brothers and do a demo for us?

I hate to see aikidoka have their heads full of stuff that will get them killed or hurt.

I am as philosophical and elightment seeking as they come...so I hear ya!

Just like to try and balance it with a good realistic paradigm and comon sense though!
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