Kenbudo vs. Kali vs. European edged arts

Bruce Hammell wrote: as for our filipino friend with his short sticks-I suspect he could wail away on cyrano's lighter weapon, however a heavy weapon like a claidghmhor or flambarge-no contest, the heaver weapon woud win. In a situation where both the euro and the nihonto both have to be drawn- the katana would win hands down-no question simply because the weapon as it's drawn is in offensive mode- wheras the european weap has to be drawn out, and than readied to strike- 3 motions vs one slash. The guy with the sticks-whould have an edge out of the box, simply because he has nothing to draw out. -- Comments? Anyone?? -- Best

This is an old, and tiresome stereotype. FMAs are not just stick fighting. The sticks are there to represent Medium blade, or Machetes. The targets in stickfighting, and simulating the sticks as blade are very different.

Antique Visayan Machete:



Espada y Daga set:

Those are some particularly wicked implements, Thomas!

I know this is twisting the thread a little, but who out there has some experience with Jutte or Sai? That is maybe closer to what I'm fishing for.

I'm trying to replace my Cold Steel S.F. shovel and M1918 Knuckle knife as melee weapons.

Why not just carry a knife?

I do- a Benchmade "Spike". But I'd never cut anyone with it on purpose. I figure if anybody wants to knife fight with me, I'll use theirs if I need one.

Have you ever sparred with small knife?

Billy ... as part of our curriculum,.. . sai is teach, BUT... it can never replace a knife, I recommend for you the old British commando type....... and this is why:
1. weight-is fairly light and easily drawn
2.All (Cuchillo) drills from Kali apply,... plus since is double edge, the parry cut combinations tend to be faster than with a (Daga)
3.it's weight is well distributed,.... so is also good to practice throwing maneuvers, and we use it as part of (Shurikenjutsu) training,and for H2H students
4.it's thin blade is ideal for stabbing drills,... and we found out in Ft. Benin GA, that can easily penetrate the front and sides of the ARMY issue body armor, (Not the porcelain plate of curse)
5.is pretty concealable and hilly durable
6.if you get one with a full serrated blade,.... you are (cocking)...... ......and get one for me for Three Kings day!!!!!!!
NOW lets talk about the Jitte and the Sai: it can be thrown, if sharpen it also can be used as a good stabbing weapon, its main use is as parry, block and locking weapon,.... and its weight makes it a good hitting weapon also,....... but the speed factor is jeopardized because of its weight..... and that is one of the most decisive factors in sharp edge weapons usage,....... against a properly train knife fighter... IE: Espada y Daga, Tantojutsu, Kali and Machete, Indonesian Daggers, (Curvas) Gypsy Knife, ext. your parry or block and lock will probably come to late..... the use of these weapon was mostly, as an arresting tool,..... wile one person on the side, of the one to be arrested was telling him to drop his weapon,....... the other with Sai or Jitte, came close to the arrestee's sword side,.... to,... in case of an attempt to draw,...... catch the sword before it was completely drawn,,,,,,,, in combat,... usually it was use to assist a a fellow soldier, or master that was currently engaged........ but only in rare occasions,... used as primary weapon.
The Evil Ways Are Not Over Yet

Thomas, you mean small as in "the death of a thousand cuts" knife? I couldn't say I have actually sparred with knives, but I have done some with paint markers to simulate it. Admittedly, we were all hacks, but we did quite often use this for drills at one time.

Dave, thanks so much for your input. That was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I think my evil ways ARE over, though, so this is why I'm looking for more defensive weapons which hopefully can hold their own against major, offensive hand weapons.

I have been poked rather hard with a sai before and even with the blunted end it's no party. I thought that would make it or jutte a good choice for thrusting, striking and blocking/parrying. As someone has said before, I think the targets would be different in this kind of exercise- probably wrists, collar bones, pressure points, etc. Arresting is actually more in the nature of what I'm thinking of.

A retired cop I know who is now a Hapkido instructor has some good short stick manipulations that one could probably work into their Jutte repertiore. Isn't short-stick F.M.A?

Bill,

You should get a hooked cane and play with it and see what you can come up with. You can take them anywhere, even in airports, so you could always have it with you. After all, no matter how good you are with a bokken it's useless if it's not with you.

Bronson

Bill Danosky wrote: Thomas, you mean small as in "the death of a thousand cuts" knife? I couldn't say I have actually sparred with knives, but I have done some with paint markers to simulate it. Admittedly, we were all hacks, but we did quite often use this for drills at one time. Dave, thanks so much for your input. That was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I think my evil ways ARE over, though, so this is why I'm looking for more defensive weapons which hopefully can hold their own against major, offensive hand weapons. I have been poked rather hard with a sai before and even with the blunted end it's no party. I thought that would make it or jutte a good choice for thrusting, striking and blocking/parrying. As someone has said before, I think the targets would be different in this kind of exercise- probably wrists, collar bones, pressure points, etc. Arresting is actually more in the nature of what I'm thinking of. A retired cop I know who is now a Hapkido instructor has some good short stick manipulations that one could probably work into their Jutte repertiore. Isn't short-stick F.M.A?

I meant, have you ever tried a knife disarm? It's pretty difficult.

I guess one would say short stick is FMA...the sticks are 24"-31" long. but we also do Jo and Staff

Billy.... the small stick is called Yawara, or if it doesn't have rounded type ends,.... its usually called Yubibo or (finger stick)..... it should be 2" longer than the palm of your hand, its techniques can be used, instead than with a stick,.... an iron rod of same proportions,.. with the added bonus than when a fist is made with it, the hit fills like getting struck by a hammer..... since you know Hapkido, all moves can be reinforced by this rod,..... that can be attach to you keys, in case of travel the wooden incarnation can be used.... in case of a more aggressive approach,.... the points can be sharpen, or nails in the case of wood, can be drove in an angle,... leaving the sharp ends exposed....... the drills for yawara are similar to those of a knife,... taking in consideration the fact, that you will be using a different angle of motion, more directed at stabbing type techniques......... NOW......... about your quest of using offensive weapons, that as you said... (hopefully,... will hold their own, against major offensive ones)....... only in cases of people properly learning weapons like Jo, Bo or Hanbo,... because of the reach factor,... but smaller like Sai, Jutte or Yawara you will have to devote an incredible amount of time in practice,... and study of body motions of other styles that dealt with the most probable weapons that you may encounter... plus deep research of the most possible encounters themselves..... and even then,..... you may come up short.... so maybe a cane, will be the answer for you,... if you want to really do this defensive weapon thing... BUT still... it will be very up hill for you,... against a properly train individual, so do some research on the web under names like :
1. Robert Bussy : Hambo or Small Staff

2. Paul Vunak: Knife and Kali Sticks

3. Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu: Tactics applied to urban environment ext.

Tha Snake Hopes That Your New Approach Works

in any case move to Canada the medical plans are much better there (in case your new approach doesn't work pimp daddy) Good Luck Bill but please don't let the freaking Bride Kill You This Time Partner!!!!

Two interesting articles about Japanese vs European swordarts:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

Regards,
Joezer

[quote=Thomas Dixon]
Antique Visayan Machete:



Hey this looks so much like what my gardener use to clear our nearby bush? Maybe he is a top notch Kali master incognito?

[quote=Xu Wenfung]

Thomas Dixon wrote: Antique Visayan Machete: Hey this looks so much like what my gardener use to clear our nearby bush? Maybe he is a top notch Kali master incognito?

Maybe. But some mass produced Machetes are made to mimic Machetes used in Southeast Asia. Like the "Bolo" Machetes you can find at Lowes, etc. are made to mimic Bolos.

Xu Wenfung wrote: < Not sure, but both will lose to a Mongolian mounted archer who has the accuracy to hit and speed to gallop away for second offensive or third... fourth... fifth... et cetera. Boon.

I think the advantage for any of the these shooting arts would go to the ones used for hunting and war. The English longbowman and Mongolian archer shot at moving targets on a much more regular basis. If they missed they went hungry.
The longbow is better at distance than the Mongolian short bow so if they're standing I think the Welsh/Brits win. Even if you put the Huns on horseback they'd have a hard time getting within shooting distance, in my humble opinion.
Additionally, archers were instrumental in English victories against armored French Kaniggets. I don't think there are any equivalent Japanese archery victories like Agincourt, Poitiers or Crecy (sp?).
The English massed their archers as a separate unit. Did the Japanese?

Dan Guthrie wrote: I think the advantage for any of the these shooting arts would go to the ones used for hunting and war. The English longbowman and Mongolian archer shot at moving targets on a much more regular basis. If they missed they went hungry. The longbow is better at distance than the Mongolian short bow so if they're standing I think the Welsh/Brits win. Even if you put the Huns on horseback they'd have a hard time getting within shooting distance, in my humble opinion. Additionally, archers were instrumental in English victories against armored French Kaniggets. I don't think there are any equivalent Japanese archery victories like Agincourt, Poitiers or Crecy (sp?). The English massed their archers as a separate unit. Did the Japanese?

Yes. And it is even a martial art. The Japanese have (had) the longest long bow in the world, at 7'. Japanese archers were very skilled, because that was their life.

Thomas Dixon wrote: Maybe. But some mass produced Machetes are made to mimic Machetes used in Southeast Asia. Like the "Bolo" Machetes you can find at Lowes, etc. are made to mimic Bolos.

Ah right. But then I live in South East Asia. I used to have one of the machetes that also looked like the pix above when I was in the boys scout and was she was always with me especially during my jungle hike and camping activities. It is called Parang pronunced Phar-Rang. Didn't know it was considered exotic. Sh@t, don't know where I have stored that sucker.

She was especially good for clearing a path through the thick undergrowth.

Boon.

Xu Wenfung wrote: Ah right. But then I live in South East Asia. I used to have one of the machetes that also looked like the pix above when I was in the boys scout and was she was always with me especially during my jungle hike and camping activities. It is called Parang pronunced Phar-Rang. Didn't know it was considered exotic. Sh@t, don't know where I have stored that sucker. She was especially good for clearing a path through the thick undergrowth. Boon.

Oh, ok then. It probably was one of those. They're nice. They can cost about $170 for a real handmade one here in the US, imported from Indonesia, etc.

Man, this is some pretty good stuff, huh?

I like the cane idea. I think the late Micheal Echanis was known for his evil ways and he thought a cane was the best invention ever.

get a cane with a sword in it...mwuahahaha...

Thomas Dixon wrote: Yes. And it is even a martial art. The Japanese have (had) the longest long bow in the world, at 7'. Japanese archers were very skilled, because that was their life.

I don't think the 7' bow was used on the battle field - those used by mounted archers were smaller. English archers did use the long bow for very good effect on the battle field.

I think I'm going back to something Peter R. said about using a bokken as a bokken and not a sword.

This makes a little more sense to me having now emerged from the other end of this intellectual process. Since I am an Aikido practitioner, I'm often using a bokken and virtually never a live blade. I see how this eliminates the danger of katana-related accidents OR intentional injuries.

As we frequently practice jo and bokken, I can apply some jo techniques to the bokken and probably have some very serviceable budo. Plus, that leaves me with plenty of application options for canes, sticks, mop handles and whatever kinds of improvised weaponry are around.

Now I have to practice that with some of you Kali, Fencing and Kendo guys (and gals, of course) to make sure I'm getting my reality checked. I'm sure that will give me a few satora.

Bill Danosky wrote: I think I'm going back to something Peter R. said about using a bokken as a bokken and not a sword. This makes a little more sense to me having now emerged from the other end of this intellectual process. Since I am an Aikido practitioner, I'm often using a bokken and virtually never a live blade. I see how this eliminates the danger of katana-related accidents OR intentional injuries. As we frequently practice jo and bokken, I can apply some jo techniques to the bokken and probably have some very serviceable budo. Plus, that leaves me with plenty of application options for canes, sticks, mop handles and whatever kinds of improvised weaponry are around. Now I have to practice that with some of you Kali, Fencing and Kendo guys (and gals, of course) to make sure I'm getting my reality checked. I'm sure that will give me a few satora.

Good idea. Take up some Blade classes, preferably something not point oriented....lol

Peter Rehse wrote: I don't think the 7' bow was used on the battle field - those used by mounted archers were smaller. English archers did use the long bow for very good effect on the battle field.

Yes they were.

Thomas Dixon wrote: Yes they were.

You are right - checked last night. Forgot about the short end.

Dear History Buffs,

With respect to advocates of English Longbow superiority, I have some information that may dispel that notion. I got this information from Discovery channel from their "Unsolved History"segment. Specifically the program was trying to dispel the notion that it was not the English longbow that cause the defeat of the French Forces at Agincourt. And I believe they were quite convincing with their theory.

1) Some University Historian were able to measure the average force of impact of english arrow shot from the English Longbow. Then they reconstruct such force and hit them using modern calibrated machinery on armoury from that time. The force generated was not even close to piercing the french armour.

So what cause the downfall of the French Forces? They are:

a) Natural Terrain
Just prior to battle day, it rained and the ground was soaked and muddy. The English forces consisted mainly of peasants foot soldier with little armour whereas the French were out in their finest battle regalia (heavy plate armour). Hence The mobility of the French Forces were severely hampered making them sitting ducks for the swift and light english forces. The French death were just as much accredited to being trampled by their own kins when they got stuck in the mud. Some drown when their heavy armour becomes imbedded in the waterloged ground. In a sense it was their heavy armour that cause the downfall.

b) Attitude
The English were peasants footsoldier whereas the French side made up of mainly nobility. In those days, when the nobility go to war, one of their main incentive for war is to capture an enemy lord alive for ransom to enrich themselve. It must have been a dissapointment when the French find out that there were little incentive to fight for that day.

This what I remember from the program. There are more factors that caused the defeat of the French forces, but the two above is what I remembered most.

Boon.

Xu Wenfung wrote: Dear History Buffs, With respect to advocates of English Longbow superiority, I have some information that may dispel that notion. I got this information from Discovery channel from their "Unsolved History"segment. Specifically the program was trying to dispel the notion that it was not the English longbow that cause the defeat of the French Forces at Agincourt. And I believe they were quite convincing with their theory. 1) Some University Historian were able to measure the average force of impact of english arrow shot from the English Longbow. Then they reconstruct such force and hit them using modern calibrated machinery on armoury from that time. The force generated was not even close to piercing the french armour. So what cause the downfall of the French Forces? They are: a) Natural Terrain Just prior to battle day, it rained and the ground was soaked and muddy. The English forces consisted mainly of peasants foot soldier with little armour whereas the French were out in their finest battle regalia (heavy plate armour). Hence The mobility of the French Forces were severely hampered making them sitting ducks for the swift and light english forces. The French death were just as much accredited to being trampled by their own kins when they got stuck in the mud. Some drown when their heavy armour becomes imbedded in the waterloged ground. In a sense it was their heavy armour that cause the downfall. b) Attitude The English were peasants footsoldier whereas the French side made up of mainly nobility. In those days, when the nobility go to war, one of their main incentive for war is to capture an enemy lord alive for ransom to enrich themselve. It must have been a dissapointment when the French find out that there were little incentive to fight for that day. This what I remember from the program. There are more factors that caused the defeat of the French forces, but the two above is what I remembered most. Boon.

Thanks, it still makes a good story, though. The "crowd" control aspect makes a lot more sense. I do think the archers were good enough to find the chinks in armor at close range but then they could have been armed with any kind of bow.
So it's still the archer not the bow. I do know, from playing the PC gave "Medieval, Total War," they also had war hammers and short swords.

I also remember, and Shakespeare put some spin on "Henry V," the English slaughtered their French prisoners after Agincourt. In spite of the potential fortune in ransom there were so many POWs the English knew they couldn't keep them under control until ransom was paid.