Will Aikido really work?

Colleen Boone wrote: I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

As has been indicated by others on this thread: if an attacker grabs your wrist, it's interesting for him to keep holding on to it, because he then has some control over the arm (less chance of being hit) and he can feel what the defenfer is doing and how he is moving (to some extent). Besides that it is quite difficult to change the direction of a committed attack in such a way that it is still a decent attack and during good aikido technique the attacker won't have the time to consider letting go of the wrist or not.
However, if the attacker does let go of your wirst, you should be in the more advantageous position (thanks to good aikido-movement) and adapt to the circumstances. One possibility is a straight entering movement to the attacker's center combined with an atemi of the hand the attacker was holding.

Of course, demonstrations on friends are quite difficult, because you don't want to hurt them, but you do want to show something.

Don't lose your attitude of questioning and keep other arts in mind as you practice Aikido. It's a deep art with many practical techniques hidden a little beneath the surface. Most Aikidoka have very little practical experience handling resistant opponents and realistic situations because Aikido (in general)has practically no competitive practices. This is very unlike other combat arts such as Judo,Wrestling, Boxing. Many aikidoka simply don't understand the practical side and are unable to give good honest questions like these a simple clear answer. They end up spouting theories and philosophy which is not what you need.
Watch what happens in realistic fights like the matches in the UFC, other mixed martial arts competitions, boxing, wrestling and sumo. What you'll notice is that striking is only a small part of the contest. Think of Sumo and the UFC. They both allow hard smashes to the face and body. Yet in such realistic fights, after a few seconds of face strikes, the fighters end in a clinch. Fighting from a clinch involves grabbing the biceps, wrists and shoulders. If either fighter loses control at such short range, one of them is going to get punched in the face, shoved in the throat or tackled at the legs. So, the answer to why bother with wrist grab techniques is, you have to control the opponent's arms. Either he grabs you to prevent punches or you grab him. In either case, short range fighting ABSOLUTELY requires control of the arms thru holding at one of the 3 major points: the wrist, bicep or shoulder. Any technique that works from a wrist grab works almost exactly the same from a bicep and shoulder grab.
The next thing to understand is how to best defend yourself when a much stronger person grabs your arms. Let me tell you what happens in every grappling art like Judo and Wrestling when the other guy controls the grip. You can't move or use any technique. He can shove you backwards into a wall (like boxers corner a guy), jerk you downwards (for kicks to the face), jerk you forwards (for leg tackles) or just jerk you forward and restrain you from behind. In short, wrist grabs are a way to practice how to control the opponent's force. Defending against strikes is handled by forcing the opponent into a clinch.
I didn't learn these lessons from Aikido. I learned them by practicing other arts. Then over time, I began to look more carefully at the drills and ideas in Aikido. Most Aikidoka don't understand these kinds of ideas because they've only spent time practicing Aikido. Such people, including so called "Masters" are good demonstrators and sources of knowlege about AIkido. But they are not good at showing how to use Aikido against experienced, powerful, resistant fighters or against street situations. It was said that Ueshiba didn't accept students that hadn't practiced another martial art. That was quite a correct idea because Aikido isn't such an easy thing to understand at first.
I ended up discovering so many things lacking in traditional Aikido that now I practice what I call Short Range Aikido. It's based on Wrestling blended with Aikido. It's all about using Aikido in purely practical ways to handle boxers, wrestlers, and ground fighters. It has no religious "stuff" mixed in. Yet, I mostly stick to the Aikido's principles of using harmless techniques to overcome my opponents.
Remember ..Don't throw out the baby with the bath water..



Aikido by itself is very hard to understand. The wrist grab question is just one of many other important questions that must be answered if the art is to be used in a practical manner just like Judo, Karate, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or any other practical martial art. Aikido should be held to the EXACT same standard as any other martial art.

Hmmm, I wouldn't say that videos of any sporting match are equivalent to a "real world" fight. Now let me just put out my opinion that fighting and self defense are not the same thing. In a fight BOTH people have chosen to fight, whatever happens to them is their own fault because they chose to be there. In a self defense situation one person attempts to harm the other requiring the person attacked to defend themselves in a way that affords them the earliest opportunity to escape. Big difference.

Anyway I did a Google search for "fight videos" and found a couple.

Advisory for language and of course violence. You'll want to have some type of pop-up blocker on too.

#1

#2

#3

Notice that the fights are between kids....that's because fighting is childish

Maybe Dave Organ can post the clip he has of a real self defense situation. It involves a woman being stomped to death for what's in her purse. It is quite honestly one of the most frightening/disturbing things I've seen.

Bronson

Daren Sims wrote: Its A case. There was a major thread dealing with grabs to the wrist recently. While accepting that it is possible for someone to grab in this way I hope I am not alone in seeing katate dori etc as primarily useful for developing distance awareness within safe practice. As for the general issue ...will aikido work? Yes. Can we talk about something else now? D

LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way. Yonkkyo is a highly effective technique when someone knows how to do it properly, whether on the mat or otherwise.
As for talking about something else...there are many threads for many people to discuss. If a topic doesn't suit your taste, may I suggest you not bother yourself with it. I just arrived here and so for me, this topic is new.

Beau Biller wrote: It never looked anything like class, but the movements were all the same.

I agree...in class, usually everyone is a lot more relaxed than off the mat "fights." This changes the feel quite dramatically unless you have the most splendid sense of timing. I've always been the smallest of my friends, most of which thought the idea of a good time was getting into fights. Go against a wrestler, for example, and you'll often notice the movements have a much shorter range and so instead of those long, beautifully drawn out stretches, you'll see very quick and dynamic explosions of motion or you'll simply slip their hold and have to start all over again. In those quick little explosions, I've found the "hinge-effect" to be a particular thing to be wary of. I have performed a corner-dropping motion (improperly, I might add) only to find the other side of the body swinging around at twice the velocity as the last attack. This is why it's always important to be mindfull of the center (the "hinge) of your attacker, so you can stay inside that naturally induced action and throw or pin or whatever your subsequent action may be.

Matthew Gano wrote: LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way. Yonkkyo is a highly effective technique when someone knows how to do it properly, whether on the mat or otherwise. As for talking about something else...there are many threads for many people to discuss. If a topic doesn't suit your taste, may I suggest you not bother yourself with it. I just arrived here and so for me, this topic is new.

My point matthew is that there are already many threads of this nature. I find them a little repetitive and the only way I can indicate this is to say so.

I have tried to send cosmic ki messages but clearly have not mastered this yet.

Respectfully

D

Matthew Gano wrote: LOL! Yes, it is A case. As for katatedori being used primarily for distance awareness within safe practice, I'd say all forms of attack could be described in exactly the same way .....

I have my own theory about another reason for katatedori. Basically -- and I'm oversimplifying this -- when you get slightly closer than arm's reach of the other person's torso, close enough that your front foot is even with uke's, you are starting to get close enough that your eyes are useless for detecting an attack; even if you can see what's coming, by the time your brain processes what your eyes have seen, it will already be too late. That's why touch sensitivity becomes more important, and why Chinese systems do things like chi sao. Grapplers, who get body to body, also have the issue where they can't see what's going on, so they have to go by feel.

WRT Aikido, while you frequently START at punching range if not farther away, even when doing katatedori, you frequently go to an angle or a range where your eyes are taken out of the equation. Muneteski kotegaeshi is a good example -- if you do a big tenkan that turns your back to uke, you can't see what's going on; your only sensory input if uke has another trick up his or her sleeve is the connection between your hands. That's it! You'd better learn to use it.

So on top of (A) representing a strike and (B) being a valid attack on its own, I think that (C) katate-dori is useful because it fosters the idea of having an attachment to your parnter without making a big deal out of it. Certainly, the idea that your centers are connected bears that out.

It also implies that a nage who loses his grip on uke during a technique is in serious trouble. That said, I don't know if this is valid or not.

But there's that idea.

Please let me know if it makes sense .... ?

Michael Gallagher wrote: So on top of (A) representing a strike and (B) being a valid attack on its own, I think that (C) katate-dori is useful because it fosters the idea of having an attachment to your parnter without making a big deal out of it. Certainly, the idea that your centers are connected bears that out. It also implies that a nage who loses his grip on uke during a technique is in serious trouble. That said, I don't know if this is valid or not.

Good point Michael. I'd even go so far as to say that even when we have favourable conditions for visual detection we should aim to gain "hands on"" as quickly as possible when we close the distance on our partner. I read somewhere about the amount of frames per second required to fool the sense of sight as compared to the amount of pulses per second required to fool the sense of touch. The sense of touch was extremely much more difficult to be fooled from the research. It was done by folks developing force feedback controllers for video games. This indicates that it may actually be more accurate than sight in detecting very subtle stimuli, all things being equal.

The idea you gave for touch and sensitivity awareness is probably why techniques from grabs are practiced from beginner to expert level in Aikido training as well. It's our way of feeling the movement of our partner to be more in tune and figure out the best technique based on movement. I don't think training from grabs alone will ever develop the sensitivity skills one gets from something like Chi Sau or even Tegatana Awase, but it does start one on the path to understanding how movements affect each other and finding optimum methods to do so through sensitivity.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

Daren Sims wrote: My point matthew is that there are already many threads of this nature. I find them a little repetitive and the only way I can indicate this is to say so. I have tried to send cosmic ki messages but clearly have not mastered this yet. Respectfully D

I understand. I assumed your message was implying I shouldn't have responded in the vein I did because you were saying it was redundant. Your final remark, asking to talk about something else, reenforced this idea in my mind. Sorry I misunderstood you.
Keep working on those cosmic ki messages.
Bambatte!
Take care,
Matt

Michael Gallagher wrote: But there's that idea. Please let me know if it makes sense .... ?

I think that was beautifully said! I wish I were so articulate!
Take care,
Matt

Wrist grabs make a lot of sense when you consider two equally skilled lightly armed opponents fighting - the context of most jujutsu of which Aikido is one particular form.

I find that in resistance work (both Judo and Aikido) getting hold of the wrist is a very common tactic.

Looks like the wrist thread is back with a vengeance...

I guess its down to style....my aiki background uses this for developing distance at an earlier stage and later as a tool to develop awareness and use of centre through the point of contact. Pretty much along the lines as eloquently stated by Michael.

My vale tude experience rarely saw wrist grabs from standing, to me there was more trapping and locking on the arm and elbow, but I can see their relevance if you come from a background of using competition as a basis for development particulary what I know as Tomiki perhaps.

I'll adjust my original statement to say that within my own experience this is practiced to mainly promote distance awareness and to give an opportunity to study relative positions and body movement dynamics rather than as a direct method of assault.

I'll accept that for others it can be used differently...see previous threads for the full gen on this.

Cheers

D

Larry Camejo wrote: ..... I don't think training from grabs alone will ever develop the sensitivity skills one gets from something like Chi Sau or even Tegatana Awase....

I wasn't sure of that myself; you're probably right on that.

but it does start one on the path to understanding how movements affect each other and finding optimum methods to do so through sensitivity. Just my 2 cents. LC

Got yer money's worth, I think.

I don't see why there's so much controversy over how "real world" katate techniques are. I have seen a lot of fights break out from shoving and sort-of standing grapples. One person shoves or "comes at" the other, the defender puts up his hands, and there you go.

Hmmmm.....well....my opinion on this one is that katate dori is more a stepping stone for the tsuki's. You train the movements so you can see that you do the exact same thing when somebody wants to punch you.
In a real fight between 2 men....it is very unlikely to be holding someone's wrist....
That is why katate dori is mostly trained go no geiko. Because it has little real Martial worth.

In my dojo we call go no geiko the ice form. Than we go to the next 'level' the water form, ju no geiko where the movement is fluent (ki no nagare). And than the last 'level' of training ryu no geiko the gas form....where it is not sure who began the attack.....

So when you get grabbed by someone......your Aikido is not 100% because that grab could've been the same as a punch, and you don't try to do a technique when you've already been punched....

So do not think of every thing to be realistic....more as something you have to do to get the technique right.

Correct me if somebody thinks I am wrong....I came here to learn

Stijn,

Not sure I am really following exactly what you are saying, so forgive me if I assume or misunderstand your post.

I am doing alot of Mixed Martial Arts/BJJ style fighting right now in my training. One thing I am finding works fairly well on opponents is to approach them in a judo fashion, offering my hands sort of. More times than not they will grab or attempt to control my arms moving towards the clinch. Using kokyo style motion I am able to reverse the grab in a downward facing hand and grasp their wrist. Then, using a slight tenkan I enter into a classic judo style arm bar with my arm over top of theirs. From there, I either ride the arm down, or more often than not they consolidate on the arm to protect it and I reverse tenkan into a classic kotegaesh, taking them to the mat. From there I mount them and hold a decent hiji gatami until they tap or if not that I go into something else from the mount.

Most people I roll with now on a regular basis have learned not to even try and grab my arms and will even walk backwards and try to fight me from a distance instead of entering. that leaves them punches, kicks, and then moving to a quick shoot...but that is another story.

It may not look like good aikido, but the principles are all there, and I have personally found that wrist (kote) techniques to be very useful and applicable.

Although they do build into more complex, powerful attacks, a wrist grab is still an attack. If something happens in pub/street etc, and your opponent grabs your wrist, you'll have experience receiving that attack. Better to have practiced from this and have a response other than, "Oh SH*T! Now he's attached to me and I'm gonna have to beat him to death"

T
They still confuse the hell out of me though.

We sort of get into a mindest that techniques involving the wrist begin from katate dori - or something similar where someone attempts to control us by grabbing our wrist. Given the right situation, what prevents you from grabbing their wrist and transitioning into a technique, such as kote gaeshi or shiho nage? Food for thought?

In the situation posed by Xu Wenfung, Subject B should have put the helmet on his head. That way it protects his melon while freeing both hands to fight. Just my opinion.

Michael Gallagher wrote: As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview. If you're really worried about it, while continuing Aikido, cross-train in something like Thai Boxing, shoot, or Filipino martial arts, to cover those areas; the latter two will integrate that with grappling. Failing that, go with the responses that come naturally to you; Aikido should work its way into that in time as it becomes part of your muscle memory. If you are continuing with TKD and karate while doing Aikido, keep doing that.

as it turns out i've seen a match between Kung-Fu and Aikido and for anyone who thinks aikido won't work against kicks i can tell you the aikido guy excecuted a near perfect tsuki kotegaishi on the Kung-Fu guy's foot. That was also the fastest spin on a high fall i've ever seen.

Many people also may not know (for lack of appropriate classes ((not bashing any sensei))) that the concept of moving off the line as seen in Aikido weapons training ca be used with punchyes and kicks (unless you are facing an experianced Thai Boxer...then you should run because i saw ong bak and i'm afraid of that guy now...) all the way!

Howard Dyke wrote: We sort of get into a mindest that techniques involving the wrist begin from katate dori - or something similar where someone attempts to control us by grabbing our wrist. Given the right situation, what prevents you from grabbing their wrist and transitioning into a technique, such as kote gaeshi or shiho nage? Food for thought? In the situation posed by Xu Wenfung, Subject B should have put the helmet on his head. That way it protects his melon while freeing both hands to fight. Just my opinion.

When I am rolling in my MMA hardcore stuff I grab wrist constantly. Judoka are very adept and doing this I am finding. If nothing else you can use it as anchor point and gradually move up uke's body to lapel grab or upper sleeve grab for a koshinage, osotogari are iriminage.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: When I am rolling in my MMA hardcore stuff I grab wrist constantly. Judoka are very adept and doing this I am finding. If nothing else you can use it as anchor point and gradually move up uke's body to lapel grab or upper sleeve grab for a koshinage, osotogari are iriminage.

Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap.

However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training.

If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this.

As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done

Happy friday!

D

Daren Sims wrote: Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap. However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training. If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this. As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done Happy friday! D

Daren Sims wrote: Grabbing the wrist is an option in some circumstances...especially competitions where both competitors are trying not to concede an inch and you need to try every angle to close the gap. However perhaps the issue with wrist grabs is how you use them in your personal training. If you are using them as part of a development process working up to more challenging attacks....or whether you are using them within an attack or resisting an attack then you will have a different view on this. As long as you don't confuse the two and start fighting your uke as he takes you wrist....or even worse...take two deep breaths and lower your centre as some bar room brawler grabs you and pulls you in to meet his five head... then no harm done Happy friday! D

Very good point!

Bang! You are dead . No it doesn't work.

Boon, who is very sad it doesn't work,

The answer to everyone question is yes aikido does work in this art the more you train the faster you will find an opening so you can take attacker off balance put him in a nice strong aiki hold and send him away from you , or you can stay close and pin him for submission/complance. Aikido has proven postive more than once and helps me in my police work .