Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-13-2004, 11:27 AM   #1
chrisward
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Will Aikido really work?

I have spent several years studying Tae Kwon Do and Karate and I wish I had found Aikido long before (no disrespect intended to any other art), however, I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively, I know you have to have a starting point for training in any art, but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses....
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 11:35 AM   #2
Stethomas
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 22
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Hi Chris

Im in the same boat mate. Not exactly the answer your expecting but i know what you mean about the grabbing of the wrist' i mean who the hell is gonna try & grab your wrist' in a fight.

Not to worry though because im sure the way our Sensei is teaching us is appropriate, maybe we'll learn all the obvious stuff later.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 12:23 PM   #3
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

I look at "Similar Threads" at the bottom of the page and I have to wonder where all the prvious threads on the utility of aikido are. Maybe we can combine them and shunt them to the top of the forum like PAG did on e-Budo with other FAQs so we don't have them recurring every two weeks...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 02:24 PM   #4
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,913
Spain
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
... but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, ...
This is because you don't surf in Hawaii.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=68

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 05:48 PM   #5
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
I have spent several years studying Tae Kwon Do and Karate and I wish I had found Aikido long before (no disrespect intended to any other art), however, I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively, I know you have to have a starting point for training in any art, but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses....
I've been to women's self defense seminars where they focus on the defense a wrist grab, the idea being an assailant would grab the wrist and punch. So it's a valid attack on it's own. (So's a shirt or shoulder grab; I remember seeing a brawl at a hcokey game where two players grabbed each other's uniforms and were pummeling each other with their other hand.)

Also, a wrist grab is used to practice the same techniques you'd use against a punch, just without the added pressure of a fist flying at you.

As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview. If you're really worried about it, while continuing Aikido, cross-train in something like Thai Boxing, shoot, or Filipino martial arts, to cover those areas; the latter two will integrate that with grappling. Failing that, go with the responses that come naturally to you; Aikido should work its way into that in time as it becomes part of your muscle memory. If you are continuing with TKD and karate while doing Aikido, keep doing that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 06:30 PM   #6
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
I look at "Similar Threads" at the bottom of the page and I have to wonder where all the prvious threads on the utility of aikido are. Maybe we can combine them and shunt them to the top of the forum like PAG did on e-Budo with other FAQs so we don't have them recurring every two weeks...
That would be really good!!!

where's the one long one recently on katatetori ?

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 06:33 PM   #7
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
As to the people who are boxing or low kicking, yeah this is a LEETLE bit outside Aikido's perview.
I don't agree.

It may be outside some people's training perview but it is certainly not
outside aikido's perview.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 06:36 PM   #8
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
I know here in the early going of my Aikido training we have been working on wrist grabs exclusively,
how early ?

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 07:32 PM   #9
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 07:47 PM   #10
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.
This reminds me of something actually. When someone tried to rob me once this is exactly what he did, went for my top jeans pocket and wallet with a cross handed grab much like katatedori.

The resulting technique was something we do for our very first grading test from the aigamae katatedori attack as well.

Good one Jo.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 08:35 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,942
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Don't think of it as a wrist grab. Think of it a somebody trying to take something out of your hand. Like your keys or your wallet.
Not to mention, not all encounters are "fights"; men try restraining women as a prelude to both abduction and assault.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2004, 11:20 PM   #12
chrisward
Location: Yukon, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

I am thoroughly looking forward to a long career in Aikido and I certainly appreciate all the feeedback. I just have a lot of question's and I thank you for your assistance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 04:05 PM   #13
Dan Gould
Dojo: Cilfynydd, Pontypridd
Location: Abercynon, Wales
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 49
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

What I expect is that when attacked by multiple attackers, one will restrain while the other attacks/checks pockets, etc. So if you become well versed in wrist grabs, you can quickly get out of the restraint and sort him out before the other one can come in.

Yes, I'm a newb, this is just my expectation and speculation, I don't know this for sure. But it's what I tell myself so I don't think they're useless.

As a side note, I've spent the last 8 months countering off of punches in aikijutsu, and it's not all it's cracked up to be, lol. It is useful though to see both sides of that :-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 08:19 PM   #14
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I don't agree.

It may be outside some people's training perview but it is certainly not
outside aikido's perview.

There seem to be as many types of low-line ---- below the belt ---- kicks as there are for above the belt, yet apart from teaching us a groin kick, the karate dojo I started with didn't address them. It was a hassle when I sparred with friends outside the class who had street experience -- their low kicks screwed me up, although I learned to watch for them in time. Ditto their fakes.

It is true that Aikido seems to focus on going to locks or throws off attacks from kick punch range, and as such, deals with the range a low kick could be coming from. But as you note, not training against them could be a problem.

The good news is getting "off the line" and getting both hands into play is a good idea. Enough against these kind of attacks? No idea. But better than nothing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 08:20 PM   #15
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Chris Ward wrote:
I am thoroughly looking forward to a long career in Aikido and I certainly appreciate all the feeedback. I just have a lot of question's and I thank you for your assistance.
You're welcome; happy training!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 12:00 AM   #16
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
It is true that Aikido seems to focus on going to locks or throws off attacks from kick punch range, and as such, deals with the range a low kick could be coming from. But as you note, not training against them could be a problem.

Well, personally, here is where there is an advantage of running your own dojo. I can train against them and train students against them.

I have three areas of instruction: Foundation, Art, and Application.
First, the foundation of our style in the form of ki exercises, aiki taiso, and the testing syllabus of techniques against standard attacks. Second is the art of our style: taigi which allows a cursive expression of the basics by focusing on rhythm, largeness in ki, and connection. Third is the Application of foundation and art in anything (eg. daily life, self-defense.etc). I throw a little bit of the third part in beginner classes when I can to help them make the connection to the foundation or in response to
questions.

For application, I strongly believe in experimentation. If you have a strong foundation, experimentation will often answer many questions. In addition, I have found R&D useful. That's Rob and Duplicate.
IMO there have to be some criteria for R&D. It has to be congruent with our aikido philosophy to minimize harm and dissipate aggression in a situation. It has to follow ki and aikido principles taught in the foundation of our aikido.

So I teach classes where we train to deal with low-kicks, a boxer, a smart knife attacker, as well as many other things. It's just part of what falls under application.

Last edited by kironin : 11-15-2004 at 12:06 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 04:58 AM   #17
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
Location: Sunderland
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 124
England
Offline
Smile Re: Will Aikido really work?

Wrist grasps are to initiate beginners into the concepts of circularity. But if/when you become more aware of concepts you can pre-empt attacks and actually get your attacker to grasp your wrist/elbow/shoulder etc etc by presenting whichever one to him before he has formed his attack.
As he is thinking about attacking you, feign an attack on him, eg: uraken (backfist strike) to the face. If you are in the right position he will automatically raise his arm/hand to defend and most likely grasp what is offered. - and there you go!
This is very simplistic as an example but try it.

With more experience you will become aware that 'techniques' are just a finish to a movement, as a full stop (period) at the end of a sentence. Real 'aiki' is being in the right place (where your attacker does not want you to be), with good 'form', moving in an appropriate direction which will initiate blending and flow, to lead, control and dissipate his energy.

To be a little more frank, when you fight or struggle to apply a technique (with an 'I must apply this/that/a technique' mind), it can sometimes be viewed as 'backup to a b*lls up', with regard to real 'aiki' concepts.

Its a long and wonderful learning curve, which like all curves leads back to the source so don't be in too much of a hurry enjoy the journey.
P.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 07:58 AM   #18
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Many people misunderstand grabs. They perform many functions. Often you grab to force someone down (and restrict kicking by pushing body weight down into their feet i.e. they can't kick because the legs are trying to support them). Grabs are also a good initial training method because the contact allows nage to blend more easily (just as in bokken work it is easier to respond to the feel of someone's sword movement than watching it).

Does aikido work in reality. Yes, I have employed the principles of aikido at least four times in fights, one of which was life threatening (a knife). However don't think that aikido does not involve strikes. If there is an opening to strike, you can strike. Aikido is a set of natural principles, not a set of techniques. There are no rules in real fights, aikido is a way to understand body movement.

P.S. I have had my wrist and throat grabbed simultaneously be seperate people in a multiple attack situation, so grabs do happen. (simultaneous nikkyo and tenchi nage solved that one)

Last edited by ian : 11-15-2004 at 08:01 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 10:04 AM   #19
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Well, personally, here is where there is an advantage of running your own dojo. I can train against them and train students against them.
Had a hunch you did something like that.

Quote:
.... For application, I strongly believe in experimentation. If you have a strong foundation, experimentation will often answer many questions. In addition, I have found R&D useful. That's Rob and Duplicate.
LOL!

Quote:

IMO there have to be some criteria for R&D. It has to be congruent with our aikido philosophy to minimize harm and dissipate aggression in a situation. It has to follow ki and aikido principles taught in the foundation of our aikido.

So I teach classes where we train to deal with low-kicks, a boxer, a smart knife attacker, as well as many other things. It's just part of what falls under application.
Sounds .
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 11:02 AM   #20
Miguelspride67
Dojo: ShugyoShin Dojo/ Sto. Dgo.
Location: Santo Domingo D.N
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 44
Dominican Republic
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Isn't katatetori also used because it is a stable and useful introduction to the concept
of ma-ai? It's also an easier beginner's position than the more likely (in a real-life
altercation) mune- or sode-dori.
Hope this helps -
Robin Wilton

thread Why katatetori is used in aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2004, 08:23 PM   #21
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Hi friends,

Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...

Truly,
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2004, 01:41 PM   #22
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Hi friends,

Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):-

a) Subject A's position
b) Subject B's position

Please feel free to discuss...

Truly,
Boon.
For both A and B, the same thought popped to mind: With the high line "blocked," go low, as with a groin kick. A could use it offensively, going high with the stick and going low with the kick. B could use it defenseively, blocking high and kicking low.

Of course, if both kick low at the same time, their legs smash together, and you get a stalemate.

The foregoing assumes they are actually fighting. If they are just clowning around, the kick can likewise be faked.

May have more to do with the other things I've done than Aikido (although this would fall under "apply atemi"), but what came to mind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 08:16 PM   #23
Shannon Fry
Dojo: Ten Chi Kai-Watsonville
Location: Corralitos,Calif.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4
United_States
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

I would recommend that subject B projects the helmet towards subject A (This will distract A) At the same time of projection,subject B would enter subject A resulting in a Shomen-uchi Irimi nage four direction throw.

Shannon
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 09:16 PM   #24
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Will Aikido really work?

Quote:
Shannon Fry wrote:
I would recommend that subject B projects the helmet towards subject A (This will distract A) At the same time of projection,subject B would enter subject A resulting in a Shomen-uchi Irimi nage four direction throw.

Shannon
During the confrontation, subject A was hitting using a cane walking stick rapidly and as a spectator I feel that the strike was rapid... however the strike doesn't look powerful enough. I guess, a little bravery is in order... if subject B was to be brave enough to take a single hit, enter and do irimi nage or tenkan shiho nage, I guess subject A will be floored.

Another more direct method may be to throw the helmet at subject A's face and proceed quickly to do a mune tsuski aiming at the gut to floor subject A. (Not very aiki though)

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2004, 11:47 PM   #25
Adramalek
 
Adramalek's Avatar
Dojo: Okami Ryu Ninjutsu
Location: Carolina
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 20
Puerto Rico
Offline
Evil Eyes Re: Will Aikido really work?

Hi Chris , as long as you use common sense it will work, for exp: if you practice Aikido and on the bus stop I point a gun at your head, if you just use Aikido your family will miss you this Christmas, but if you pretend to start crying act scared and trembling while am getting comfortable, because you are giving me the response I wanted ,you can put a standing arm bar and disarm me, if am bigger and you start talking and when am listening you knee me on the crotch and then go for a throw , It has a fairly good chance of happening, but if you are talking about taking on a guy who has 2% body fat, that practices boxing and his punches are to fast for you to apply a Kote Gaeshi, or a guy that is just much bigger and stronger, pal use Physics , he will rip your brain out and eat cornflakes out of your skull wile watching Oprah by the time you do something , so CROSS TRAINING IS THE SOLUTION [u] I practice Aikido whenever I can to refine my movements on throws and to help with my Water Techniques in taijutsu, I use Brazilian Jujitsu for ground fighting , and boxing for my striking , even having formal training in tanto jutsu doesn't stop me from calling a fellow instructor in Decuerdsas escrima to polish my Knife , so look at your weaknesses and think like O Sensei , he didn't practice just one type of Jujutsu so Why should you just practice one , why talk in just one language, why have just one girlfriend jeje... OK you understand by now if not you will understand wile waiting for medical attention on the emergency room of some hospital, when you try to get all Seagal on some big dude , always remember Physics apply to us All!!!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido does not work at all in a fight. joeysola General 1930 07-09-2012 02:51 AM
Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward Red Beetle General 358 10-10-2006 11:43 AM
Way of the Warrior on Discovery timcraig General 58 09-13-2003 12:18 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate