Run from an attacker?

Brian....

Shhhhh.....that's me screaming.

Depending on the circunstance, I would personally stay, like, lets say I was there with my girlfriend or family while some wild dude attacked us with a knife... Well they could run, I would stay to give them the edge they needed to get the hell outta there... The most important I dont think it is the point of the knife, but who has the knife!... A good knife with some combat technique in how to use it, sorry but that is a worthy opponent, hitting the backpeddal and fleeing that is something that I would ponder, if I detected somehow the guy knew how to use it, but someone like a average junkie or cheap pick-pocketeer, I dont think I would. Like always it depends a lot on the circunstance and in "your/whoever" cold blood to figure out what is really happening. Like someone used to say "I dont run off like a scared dog, I run off like a wolf so I can fight the battle some other day". Guns are amusing, once in the past we're talking about movies and my former kickboxing master just gave his humble opinion "For how faster and how good your technique might be, it is ALWAYS faster to pull the trigger".

In a fast way, in presence of people who could not defend themselfs, I would stick around and face it so they could flee, then time would say if I would flee or face it to whatever end it might be. Alone, if I suspected it was someone with weapons training, and that is easy to see depending on wich kind of knife and how it is handled, well, flee could be a nice choise, and probably would end up in the dilema between a wild pig and a cheetah...

The wild pig runs as much as he can, when he realizes that he is tired and cant run more, he stops, turns back and charges at the cheetah. Cheetah's always win this classic battle.

If the guy was the sort of junkie I am used to see in holland or portugal, or the cheap criminal, that would be a big mistake for him. (or maybe for me ).

"Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."

O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba
The Art of Peace (John Stevens)

Originally posted by SeiserL "Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it." O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba The Art of Peace (John Stevens)

...I believe that was General George Custer's last quote also!

Originally posted by akiy I've heard the concept of moving backwards during randori to be nearly an anathema in aikido circles as it "draws your ukes towards you like a funnel," but it seemed to work OK for him during the randori if I saw it correctly. I believe Georde Ledyard was commenting on how if you go backwards then run a "J" or "hook" pattern off to the side, you'll very often "line up" all of the uke that you have, making them much easier to throw one at a time. Of course, my last attempt at randori (with five attackers) was pretty hopeless and had my instructor commenting on how I (as well as others) needed more work on our randori, so you'll have to take my thoughts with a grain or two of salt... -- Jun

Let me say that I apologize for promoting our own event but it seems relevant to the discussion. We have a Four Day Randori Intensive every year on Labor day weekend. We have been doing this kind of thing for 13 years and have worked out a very systematic approach to teaching randori. The event is open to anyone with solid ukemi skills which would probably be about third kyu or higher. If anyone wants to attend just contact me. I am sure we can put you up so don't worry about that.

I say this because I contsntly hear comments from folks about their randori skills yet very few people actually teach randori. We have worked out what I think is a very good program which isolates the various movement principles of randori and also has some interesting exercies to make them clear but not many people have actually been able to see the program. It isn't usually possible to teach randori when I get invited to teach a seminar due to space limitations and wide experience levels. I did get a chance to do a very abbreviated portion of it for Kimberly Richardson Sensei's folks (as my contribution to helping her husband, Dan, get ready for San Dan). They seemed to find it helpful.

Anyway, I would welcome anyone who wishes to work on this aspect of their Aikido. We will practice about seven hours per day and the limit is fourteen students so it is a very small group so you get maximum attention. My e-mail is: aikigeorge@aikieast.com.

George,

We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona.

This year our focus is on taninsu dori (multiple attackers). We also have a very well developed method of teaching the principles and strategy of this practice.

Wish you were here (and vice versa).

Regards,

Hello Edward,

....say that you are walking down the street, a guy approaches you, pulls a knife out, starts slashing it around screaming: "Satan requires your soul!" ...he's obviuosly not all there, probably on drugs, you can't reason with him, though you can sure try! ...are you telling me you're going to use you 'martail arts training' to handle this situation?!?! ...you have the opportunity to get out of there, but you'd rather go toe-to-toe wih this nut-case?!?! ...*LOL*...you're crazier than he is if you do!!!

...train hard my friend, you're going to need it!


Regards, [/b][/quote]

OK, instead enter into hamni, draw pistol and place front sight on Mr. "Coo-Coo for Coco puffs". Give loud and clear verbal commands for him to drop weapon and lay on ground. If he fails to comply AND moves toward you or a third party in a threatening manner, fire into center of mass until hostile action has ceased.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

Originally posted by George S. Ledyard We have a Four Day Randori Intensive every year on Labor day weekend. We have been doing this kind of thing for 13 years and have worked out a very systematic approach to teaching randori.

Drool...

Originally posted by Chuck Clark We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona.

Drool, again...

Some day, I'll make it out to Seattle, George. And also, some day, I'll make it back to your Shochugeiko, Chuck...

-- Jun

Originally posted by BRIAN H OK, instead enter into hamni, draw pistol and place front sight on Mr. "Coo-Coo for Coco puffs"....

Hi Brian,

...now this is the best response so far! When faced with a weapon, stay out of that weapon's effective range & deploy a superior weapon!

Bravo!

Originally posted by Brian Vickery Hi Brian, ...now this is the best response so far! When faced with a weapon, stay out of that weapon's effective range & deploy a superior weapon! Bravo!

That's why I always carry a grenade with me...

I think I would be one of the dilusional Aikidoist since my answer to the knife-wielding maniac would be Aikido: run or deal with him/her without killing or permanent damage. Self and friends before attacker. BTW: I've been in situations like this... it's still worth it to me.

Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me.
Have fun.

Originally posted by Jim ashby Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me. Have fun.

You know, both times I've had a sharp object enter me: once a piece of glass, which was a stupid move with garbage and the other a knife which was a stupid dojo trick, I didn't feel a thing. No pain at all other than the realization that something had just gone very wrong.

I suppose having it stuck in my ribs might lead to a different experience.

Originally posted by Erik You know, both times I've had a sharp object enter me: once a piece of glass, which was a stupid move with garbage and the other a knife which was a stupid dojo trick, I didn't feel a thing. No pain at all other than the realization that something had just gone very wrong.

Hi Erik,

While I was training in Colorado last month, Peyton Quinn talked about the 4 knife attacks he was involved in, in which he got cut in all of them. 3 of them he didn't even see the knife and didn't realize until after it was over that he got cut ...no pain, just lots of blood. (The 4th he saw the knife coming & knew that he got cut.)

...so he had the same experience as you had getting cut! Strange deal!

Regards,

Originally posted by Jim ashby Run if you can. Getting stabbed hurts. Trust me. Have fun.

I definately agree.



Might not hurt when it happends but I hate having to wait to heal.

I also think pulling a gun hurts and leaving someone unable to walk or see hurts. Anyway.

Back to the thread topic:

In fencing this run or not run thing is also very important. Since running is not an option (if you go off the end of the strip you loose a point) a retreat is always tactical. You speed up so your opponent follows, slow down so they think they're close enough to attack, speed up to make sure their attack doesn't reach and score because they've over-reached and can't defend. It works _great_ on anybody as long as you can pull it off.

The key in pulling it off is footwork: if you slip anywhere you loose the maneuver and your opponent is going to roll over you... I think this is the same problem in running from an opponent. You need to know: how sharp a turn can you make? how fast can you stop? fast can you run? How decisively can you turn around and depart.... it's not something you practice in the dojo and it does take skill.

--Krzysiek

My experience was unusual for the UK, I was actually armed at the time of the attack. I was not as aware as I should have been (or as aware as I am now, all the time) and I too didn't see the knife. I originally thought I'd blocked an uppercut to my stomach and, after the attacker was no longer willing/able to continue the encounter, I looked at my left arm where the knife was still stuck. Damn it hurt!!! Still does on cold/damp days, I also lost some fine motor skills and feeling in my fingers. Like I said, run if you can.
Have fun.

Originally posted by Chuck Clark George, We're just getting ready to start our annual Shochugeiko (hot weather training) tomorrow. Five days of 6 - 8 hours of training per day at the Jiyushinkan in Tempe, Arizona. This year our focus is on taninsu dori (multiple attackers). We also have a very well developed method of teaching the principles and strategy of this practice. Wish you were here (and vice versa). Regards,

So much training, so little time! I would love to come down to play sometime! This year is already full though. I've been working huge amounts of part time security work just to cover the traiing I'm doing this year. Need to clear the Expo, Boulder Camp, etc. off the credit card before I even think of another trip to make.

We did just purchase a digital camcorder so that we can put some of the stuff we've worked out onto video. That would make it a lot more accessible than it being just for the folks who visit us directly.