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Old 05-09-2002, 04:39 PM   #1
Kat.C
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Confused Run from an attacker?

I'm a little confused by some of the posts on fighting. Everyone seems to be advocating running way from an attacker as the best defense, especially from somone with a knife. Now I think avoiding a fight would definitely be the best thing, but if you are attacked, is turning your back on your attacker and running away really the best thing to do? I would have thought that you would be making yourself an even easier target. I mean, if you run and they chase you and attack from behind surely you are at a disadvantage. Aren't you? I must be missing something as almost everyone is saying 'run' and alot of you have years of martial arts training and some of you have been in fights. So what am I missing?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 05-09-2002, 04:55 PM   #2
Brian Vickery
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Re: Run from an attacker?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
I'm a little confused by some of the posts on fighting. Everyone seems to be advocating running way from an attacker as the best defense, especially from somone with a knife. Now I think avoiding a fight would definitely be the best thing, but if you are attacked, is turning your back on your attacker and running away really the best thing to do? I would have thought that you would be making yourself an even easier target. I mean, if you run and they chase you and attack from behind surely you are at a disadvantage. Aren't you? I must be missing something as almost everyone is saying 'run' and alot of you have years of martial arts training and some of you have been in fights. So what am I missing?
Hello Kat,

'Back-pedalling' will get you in alot of trouble! ...it's far better to turn tail and really run ...you have the advantage of suprise, because you made the move 1st, and you can quickly change direction, again causing your attacker to try & catch up ...plus his strike will not have the same force behind it if he is running, rather than you just standing there and taking it full force.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 05-09-2002, 04:56 PM   #3
daedalus
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One day during class, my sensei waved away my partner for a moment and took a stance accross from me, drawing a bokken. As he started to cut, I blanked. I turned and started to run to the back of the dojo.

He started laughing and said, "At least you moved, so it's a start, but we don't run like that here. You have to face the conflict straight on."

I nodded, and then he added, "Or you run for the door, not for the corner."

Brian
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Old 05-09-2002, 05:47 PM   #4
Kat.C
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Re: Re: Run from an attacker?

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Vickery


Hello Kat,

'Back-pedalling' will get you in alot of trouble! ...it's far better to turn tail and really run ...you have the advantage of suprise, because you made the move 1st, and you can quickly change direction, again causing your attacker to try & catch up ...plus his strike will not have the same force behind it if he is running, rather than you just standing there and taking it full force.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Regards,
Surprise would definitely be an advantage, but if your attacker is faster than you he will catch you. And he might not strike you from behind, he might grab you or tackle you and then hit you. And if you turned and ran you would not be able to see him and so would have no idea what his next attack would be, or when.
Just thought I would mention that I'm not saying that running is wrong I'm just trying to understand why it is the best thing to do.

Kat

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Old 05-09-2002, 07:01 PM   #5
PeterR
 
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Hi Kat;

Retreat and how you retreat is a tactical option dictated by circumstance.

Sometimes it is better to stand and fight, sometimes its better to turn and run, sometimes its better to back peddle and hope the circumstances change. Other times just give up what the person wants.

Look at it this way. You nubile and young are faced with a lumbering ox without a projectile weapon - what would you do?

On the other hand you are now faced with someone with your build, a knife and the desire to use it. Like you alluded - turning your back might be the last silly thing you do.

And now to my favourite running away joke.

Two guys in the woods come across an enraged bear.

Bear: Rarrrrr!!!!
Person 1: Run its a bear!!!

after a few minutes of persuit.

Person 1: Gasp gasp we'll never outrun the bear.

Person 2: What do you mean - I only have to outrun you.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-09-2002, 08:22 PM   #6
guest1234
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I think most are advocating avoiding the situation in the first place--I loved the comment about biker bars and ATMs at 2 am--common sense goes a long way. If you cannot avoid the situation, try to avoid getting so close to another that they can attack you. If you cannot avoid that, try to project the feeling that attacking you is a bad idea (for them). If they attack anyway, as soon as is tactically possible, get way from the situation. This can be an initial outrunning if possible, or after something that evens up the odds (grinding your heel into their instep, or the keys tricks you know already, heck, even an Aikido technique perhaps) but assume you will get cut in doing so.

I liked the bear analogy...not many folks want to try their Aikido on a bear or a lion, but a 240 pound drug crazed felon with a knife is probably not much easier to work with...
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Old 05-09-2002, 08:43 PM   #7
shihonage
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Run, Forrest !
Run !


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Old 05-09-2002, 10:06 PM   #8
thomasgroendal
 
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I always teach running away as an option for an ending to tenkan undo. Particularily with a knife.
My jo teacher's aikijujutsu teacher,(a very very big name that I don't feel like misquoting) used to say he could potentially take a knife. This is a top dog here, not just some schmutz. In aikido we practice sword taking spear taking, and anything else that we might like.
If one of the top dogs of a combative martial art was humble enough to admit that he MIGHT be able to take a knife I think the rest of us might reconsider how far our techniques apply to sincere combative combinations.
Irimi, Tenkan, Atemi, Distraction, then when you have a significant advantage on a deadly opponent, USE IT.
RUN LIKE HELL.
(and run faster!)

Life is choice.
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Old 05-09-2002, 10:56 PM   #9
Edward
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Quote:
Originally posted by thomasgroendal
If one of the top dogs of a combative martial art was humble enough to admit that he MIGHT be able to take a knife I think the rest of us might reconsider how far our techniques apply to sincere combative combinations.
It is not unusual in aikido that a beginner, after a few classes of tantodori with a cooperating partner, feels like God and that no attacker can stop him. The worst thing is that this overconfidence does not disappear with rank but rather increases
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Old 05-09-2002, 11:35 PM   #10
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward


It is not unusual in aikido that a beginner, after a few classes of tantodori with a cooperating partner, feels like God and that no attacker can stop him. The worst thing is that this overconfidence does not disappear with rank but rather increases
Some people only wake up when life smacks them upside the head with a large brick.

No matter what you say or do, these people can not be helped until something happens to them.
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Old 05-10-2002, 12:12 AM   #11
akiy
 
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Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...

-- Jun

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Old 05-10-2002, 05:28 AM   #12
Kat.C
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Kat;

Retreat and how you retreat is a tactical option dictated by circumstance.

Sometimes it is better to stand and fight, sometimes its better to turn and run, sometimes its better to back peddle and hope the circumstances change. Other times just give up what the person wants.

Look at it this way. You nubile and young are faced with a lumbering ox without a projectile weapon - what would you do?

On the other hand you are now faced with someone with your build, a knife and the desire to use it. Like you alluded - turning your back might be the last silly thing you do.

And now to my favourite running away joke.

Two guys in the woods come across an enraged bear.

Bear: Rarrrrr!!!!

Person 1: Run its a bear!!!

after a few minutes of persuit.

Person 1: Gasp gasp we'll never outrun the bear.

Person 2: What do you mean - I only have to outrun you.
Hello Peter,
Thanks for clearing up my confusion, I was assuming people meant to always run away, that it is a decision based on circumstance makes sense. Great visualisations, I hadn't been able to think of a situation in which running would work, but if ones attacker is obviously slower and less agile I'd run, and of course if ones attacker is a bear, guess aikido wouldn't work on one of those
I suppose running would work well for people who can run fast. I do run sometimes, but usually just when walking my dog so he can get a workout,(of course despite the fact that he is twelve he is in great shape and much faster than me ), and it is jogging really,not running.
I am beginning to see why my karate senseis advocated running (and had us do it so much ) perhaps I will belatedly take their advice and start up a running program.
Thank you again Peter

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 05-10-2002, 05:58 AM   #13
Kat.C
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OK, I'm clueing in, as I said in my reply to Peter, I thought people meant to run always and without doing anything else but as Colleen and Thomas posted about getting an advantage against your attacker, then running, it makes complete sense to me now.
Thank you all.

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...

-- Jun
Umm, are you referring to tenshi(tenshi is the term for the movement where you back up isn't it?) or something else?

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 05-10-2002, 06:55 AM   #14
ian
 
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I think every situation is quite unique. Whether you should run depends on various factors which include what your opponent has to gain from the attack, and what you have to gain from defending.

i.e. if it is someone attacking you for specific reasons (such as vandalising his car) they may persue you for quite some distance, whereas if they are attacking you to try and look tough, they will be very happy for you to run away.

If it is the local bully and you stand up to them, win or loose you may be able to deter his behaviour. Also, if you have a small child with you or slower associates, you may not be able to run from an attacker.

For me the question of running or not depends on whether aikido for you is just a self-defence or whether it is also Budo.

Ian
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Old 05-10-2002, 08:03 AM   #15
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
Umm, are you referring to tenshi(tenshi is the term for the movement where you back up isn't it?) or something else?
Tenshin would be one way to describe what I'm talking about. I'm also referring to when people are doing kumitachi and kumijo that, oftentimes, their weight is too much on the front foot and people just can't go back to avoid a strike (or somesuch) fast enough.

-- Jun

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Old 05-10-2002, 08:31 AM   #16
Bruce Baker
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First rule of protection

Never forget the first rule of protection or the reason to learn martial arts:

Do whatever it takes to protect yourself, and continue your life.

That particular statement can be interpreted as fighting, or running. There is no material item that you own that is not replaceable. Your life is not a replacable item.

So if you decide to fight, there can be no indecision.

Even if you run, the option to change the circumstances of attacker into victim can not be thought about, it must happen.

Not all of us consider the mindset of the robber, attacker, bully, or murderer? Somewhere between meeting the goals of the robber, to having to fight for your life with a murderer, you training in Aikido will give you a better chance to stack the odds in your favor. Sometimes, this is all you have to change a bad situation into a survivable one.

I know in a couple of street robberies I was involved with in my teenage years, I was able to put off a bad situation by keeping forty dollars handy in a somewhat empty wallet, but in others running was the best solution as it got the mugger arrested.

Consider the first rule, its vast boundarys, and many solutions. Stack the odds in your favor ... practice aikido.
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Old 05-10-2002, 08:50 AM   #17
Edward
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This thread gave me a great idea that I will suggest to sensei tomorrow. Aikido class should include an exercice where uke runs after tori and tries to beat the s**t out of him while tori makes sure not to be caught
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Old 05-10-2002, 09:39 AM   #18
guest1234
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Well, that would be useful only if you let nage do what nage should be doing in that situation: ie, yelling for help ('fire,' actually, is usually more effective), running into another room or building and locking the door then dialing 911, crossing the street against the flow of traffic, jumping on a bus or train, climbing and then removing a ladder, etc... running in circles around the mat is not quite the same thing
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Old 05-10-2002, 09:50 AM   #19
Brian Vickery
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
...running in circles around the mat is not quite the same thing
Hi Colleenn

...I'm with you on this one!

...but Boy, I'd sure LOVE to watch a class doing this!!! ;^)

One of those 'aiki' kodak moments if there ever was one!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:16 PM   #20
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Being able to back up in the same manner as one learns how to enter in aikido is, I believe, a very important and understated principle...-- Jun
What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-11-2002, 06:22 PM   #21
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto
What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?
I've heard the concept of moving backwards during randori to be nearly an anathema in aikido circles as it "draws your ukes towards you like a funnel," but it seemed to work OK for him during the randori if I saw it correctly. I believe Georde Ledyard was commenting on how if you go backwards then run a "J" or "hook" pattern off to the side, you'll very often "line up" all of the uke that you have, making them much easier to throw one at a time.

Of course, my last attempt at randori (with five attackers) was pretty hopeless and had my instructor commenting on how I (as well as others) needed more work on our randori, so you'll have to take my thoughts with a grain or two of salt...

-- Jun

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Old 05-11-2002, 11:55 PM   #22
Chocolateuke
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running

I suggest if people wanna know about criminal mindset and tatics of not getting attacked ( this can really supplement training) to go http://www.diac.com/~dgordon for some info, also Marcs book street E and E is a good book on not just running but stragisticly running meaning having a plan, running isnt just running but make barriers run somewere safe, ect. Although the language gets kinda bad he says some good stuff!

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 05-12-2002, 10:28 AM   #23
Brian H
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Tactical J

In the police academy they teach the retreat and move to the side as the "tactical J". Usually it is practised as moving to the strong side and turning your body so your pistol is away from the attacker. The theory is that an attacker (particulatly a drunk one) will have more difficultly tracking you than if you went staight back. (basic stuff to an aikidoka) However, I would submit to you that this type of technique is best suited to someone who is armed/and or willing to counterattack. The movement lets you take control of the timeing and distance of the engagement, but is not an "escape."

Turning and running is basicly a two step process, and the attacker only has one step (i.e. pounce on the good guy etc.). A workable Aiki answer is to enter DEEPLY with irimi as you are attacked. If you find yourself in a position where atemi or a technique is possible, then have at it, if not run like hell passed the attacker. The he has to turn and chase, so the slower responce is forced on him.
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Old 05-12-2002, 11:21 AM   #24
Choku Tsuki
 
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high-tailing it

Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto


What did you--Jun, or anyone else who saw it at the expo--think of Matsuoka spending so much of his randori running backwards?
The feeling I got watching this was mild disappointment. It's fair to suppose he used all that mat space because it was there. Brace this against this fact: for anyone the Aiki Expo Friendship Demonstration is a 'life or death" situation because of the amount of attention the demo would receive, the scrutiny, the inevitable criticism, it's wide dissemination via videotape. Especially for the demonstrator but also the ukes. So, no one is perfect. Running backward is one of the things I have never heard as a good randori strategy, so that was not a positive.

For randori I charge the strongest uke on either end; like Jun says that lines them up. I like an irimi technique first; I think randori is about taking charge and psychology is important too. Running backwards also sends the wrong message.

I remarked to Jun (before Ikeda Shihan's demo) that it seemed (from my perspective) that in general uke were more nervous than nage, and uke tripped up the demos more than anything else.

I found the demos exciting. Some were intentionally humorous. One just sad. One exceptionally inspiring, a few impressive, all entertaining.

--Chuck
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Old 05-13-2002, 10:16 AM   #25
akiy
 
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Re: high-tailing it

Quote:
Originally posted by nyaikido
Brace this against this fact: for anyone the Aiki Expo Friendship Demonstration is a 'life or death" situation because of the amount of attention the demo would receive, the scrutiny, the inevitable criticism, it's wide dissemination via videotape. Especially for the demonstrator but also the ukes.
Eek! How come no one told me that!? I should have put on my fancy hakama! And had my dogi dry cleaned and pressed! And had my hair done!
Quote:
I remarked to Jun (before Ikeda Shihan's demo) that it seemed (from my perspective) that in general uke were more nervous than nage, and uke tripped up the demos more than anything else.
Frankly, I was somewhat nervous beforehand. My teacher said not to worry that it would "just be like keiko" (meaning he'd be throwing me the same way he usually throws me any way), and it turned out to be pretty much just that. Of course, after the first technique (a relatively soft ikkyo), it did just turn into pretty much what I experience when I take ukemi from him so it wasn't all that different. Our whole demo seemed really short, though -- probably just a couple of minutes in length.

I'll say, though, it was quite a rush to walk onto the mat with a few hundred people applauding with flash bulbs going off. Quite a difference, say, from going up for my last dan test just a week before the Expo (albeit with less than half a day's notice!).

But, hey -- I was only one uke out of four for my teacher (two of whom were sixth dan). I have to put it to the instructors here on these Forums like Georde Ledyard and Chuck Clark who actually put on the demonstrations themselves -- not to mention Peter Goldsbury who was one of the headlining instructors of the entire Expo! Hats off to them!

As far as moving backwards in randori (the topic of this thread...) goes, does anyone else have thoughts on this matter?

-- Jun

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