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Old 03-22-2006, 10:34 AM   #51
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Re: Aiki-Otoshi

perfectly clear, Thanks!

Ron Tisdale
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-23-2006, 01:55 PM   #52
Charlie's Avatar
Location: Elgin, IL
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 165
Re: Aiki-Otoshi

Dan Botari wrote:
…When Kimeda Sensei does it he scoops from just below the knees. He grabs from outside of each leg such that his thumbs and fingers run down the leg towards uke's feet. He then scoops and shifts his hip so that the throwing action is more of a shifting than a lift and throw …
Well it seems from a Yoshinkan point of view that there is a general consensus as to how ‘we' all enter for the throw.

Dan Botari wrote:
…if you saw the picture of Parker sensei then you get the idea of how Kimeda sensei uses his back leg except that he tends to enter deep enough that both of ukes legs are block and uke is unable to step back out of the throw…
This is the first picture from the same sequence of photos that I took the quoted example above from.


Here you can see the actual hiji-mochi attack. This is important because it leads to why my hips end up so low with my feet and legs wide apart.


As Parker sensei enters, my weight and center are forced down and to my rear following a corkscrew like motion that locks up everything from my arm to my left knee via my hips/center. At this point, because of how he entered, I would not try an Aiki-Otoshi throw.

My legs are too far apart to properly ‘scoop' up Uke. Also, since his arm ends up on top of my arm and shoulder, he would probably end up pushing me away before he could enter deep enough to get both legs.

If his arm was under my arm and shoulder you would definitely see a difference in my stance. His leg would be behind both of my legs and I would not be allowed to splay my legs to keep my balance.

I was reading back through this thread and re-read the post by Raul Rodrigo. I think he summed up this topic very nicely.

Raul Rodrigo wrote:
…Sukui nage is a judo throw that looks a lot like aiki otoshi. It is typically used as a counter to a hip throw like harai goshi. As uke comes in and turns to throw, you drop your hips and lower your center. With uke stymied, you lean forward, grab uke's thighs or knees and rise, scooping him up over your thigh and then behind you. One of my judo sensei loved to do the sacrifice version of sukui nage, ie, dropping on top of you and going straight to the groundwork.

Because of the different contexts in which the two throws are used, the technical emphases are different in each art. Aikido stresses entering deep behind uke and using the arm to unbalance him over your thigh. Its really sokumen irimi-nage with a hip, thigh and a little scooping thrown in. Judo doesnt stress the entering, because you are usually already behind uke and even if his hip throw is stymied, its difficult to unbalance a skilled judoka in that way at this point. Its easier to go even lower than uke, grab his ankles and then rise...
I may differ with him on how much ‘scooping' can be found in the Aikido version of this technique, but that is about it.



Last edited by Charlie : 03-23-2006 at 01:59 PM.

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
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