Counter Techniques

Its a pin so tack on Osae and you would have it all.

Alvin Nagasawa wrote: Regarding Counter Techniques. I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started. .

Alvin ; I am sorry to disagree with you. You may be right to say Traditional Aikido is not a competitive martial art.
Tomiki Aikido is competitive...and it is Aikido. The role of uke and tori blur and blend in competition just as they would in the "street" ...unless your technique comes with a hundred % success guarantee?

Tomiki Aikido is competitive...and it is Aikido. The role of uke and tori blur and blend in competition just as they would in the "street" ...unless your technique comes with a hundred % success guarantee? [/quote]


I respect all other forms of Aikido, My teacher S. Yoshioka Shihan 8th Dan Honolulu, Hawaii. Gave his support to the Founder / Doshu an Aikikai Hombu Dojo Japan. As his student it is my wish to follow the path he laid out.
I will on this path discover many differences of options on what is Aikido. I'm not perfect or enlighten in any way shape or form. The world of Aikido has reached thought out the globe. I wish to communicate with everyone involved in what Aikido means to them. There path that they have taken. And hopefully we will all reach that light at the end of the tunnel.

Alvin Nagasawa wrote: I respect all other forms of Aikido

Alvin, in which case why do you not say "MY Aikido is not competitive". I also respect other forms and other ways. Ura waza is exploring the expansion of the story. Do you truly believe that the only story is " one attack defeated by one technique "..can you not imagine a situation where your reaction/technique to an attack is not totally successful ; a situation where the attacker has free will and a free mind to do ANYTHING including ,yes , AIKIDO , in response to what you do?

Alvin Nagasawa wrote: Regarding Counter Techniques. First of all, counter techniques should not be taught to any kyu or yudansha unless by the dojo cho. Any form of counter Techniques is my view, is the improper execution of the attack.and the uke can see a opening. But at this level only a experience and well developed practitioner can Counter the nage or uke. Practicing over and over again polish the individual until they become one. But if one is off in any way shape or form you are left open. usually its the sempai correcting the others attack or execution. There are so many factors involved in learning one technique to a level where one cannot be countered. So my suggestion don't just go thought the motion in your training, be alert, use your Uke or Nage as your shield to protect yourself when its needed. I will agree with the others that have posted there comments on this subject. Aikido is not a competitive MA and lets keep it that way. For those who believe in what the founder started. Well, I wish you all Peace and good will to man. And a Happy New year to you and yours in Y2005. Train safely and respect your training partner and your Sensei. Hope to hear more of your comments in the Aiki Web Site.

Here is another perspective. to teach counter-techniques as a way to point out the flaws in the original technique.So many students don't have an appreciation as to why a technique must be executed exactly. Because of this initial flaw, it is possible to preform a counter -technique. Then the next is to show how to counter that counter-technique. Of course the counter-counter-technique is simply fixing the original technique.Thats is to say, the counter-technique is a good way to show the "bugs"in the initial execution. In this way the student has a motivation to fix and eliminate the bugs.After all we don't preform a technique just-so for stylistic or mystical reasons. Aikido is a martial art. Every detail has consequences. Some (good) consequences are the result we desire. The other (bad) consequences are the results, we are training to eliminate. "Polishing a technique to get it right the first time is striving for the real essence". by E.C.

I just found this thread today. Interesting reading. However I take a completely different approach to the use of counter-techniques.

I like to teach counter-techniques as a way to point out the flaws in the original technique. So many students don't have an appreciation as to why a technique must be executed exactly. Because of this, they don't have an interest in the practice requred to perfect their execution of a technique. It is this initial flaw in a technique's execution that opens the door to the counter-technique.

Hence, I like to teach a counter-technique in three steps. First the basic technique. Then comes the counter techniqued.The natural reaction for students being introduced to counter-techniques for the first time is to question why we spend so much time on practicing the base initial technique when it can be countered. This is the perfect transition to the third step.

Then third next step is to show how to counter that counter-technique. Of course the counter-counter-technique is simply fixing the original technique. That is to say, the counter-technique is a good way to show the "bugs" in the initial execution. In this way the student now has the motivation to fix and eliminate the bugs. After all we don't perform a technique just-so for stylistic or mystical reasons. Aikido is a martial art. Every detail has consequences. Some (good) consequences are the results we desire. The other (bad) consequences are the results we are training to eliminate. Practice is the process where we make our results consistent to ensure we can always get the results we need. For some of us, it takes a long time and a lot of practice to persue perfection.

Gene Chang
Harvard University Aikido Club

Me, as uke, I practice reception of every technique as a counter. Right from the beginning as I'm attacking I try to change direction, timing, rhythm and speed of attack. Even during pins. If technique is well done, my counter failed, if technique is crap, my counter is done. It has nothing to do with competition, it is simply feeling of technique. I can do it with eyes closed every time. I don't need to finish my counter with classic aikido technique; off balance and a simple throw in third point is enough.
Of course, beginners are not aware of this process; they don't understand all openings in their techniques. So I don't need any words to help them, they see the physical results. In the same time I develop spontaneous reaction and any classification is useless. I found it much more benefic then well defined counters ex: sankyo against nikkyo, ikkyo against ikkyo….
More experienced instructors do it with me, so I can find openings in my technique and work on it. Without this kind of interaction aikido is dead.

NagaBaba,
I agree that as uke, it is very instructive to always be feeling for any openings that may develop that would allow an atemi or countering technique. However for the readers of this thread, it is important to make this a positive training experience for nage. This is especially important if nage is less experienced. It would become a safety problem if this descends into a wrestling match,

Training as the mutual polishing of both partners. When I am in the role of uke, learning to feel how openings develop is very helpful for developing understanding of problems to avoid when it is my turn to be nage. The delivery of an atemi or a countering technique is not essential (but often fun) to the self-directed improvement.

Gene

Peter hit the nail on the head - kaeshiwaza techniques are part of training. They are more complicated to understand than henka waza, but no different in application. Also, kaeshiwaza may not have a place in beginner curriculum, but that doesn't mean it should be restricted in instruction.

Kaeshiwaza is a great way to learn about timing, technique, balance and openings. Why would you deprive your students of that opportunity?

Jon Reading wrote: ...Also, kaeshiwaza may not have a place in beginner curriculum, but that doesn't mean it should be restricted in instruction. Kaeshiwaza is a great way to learn about timing, technique, balance and openings. Why would you deprive your students of that opportunity?

In Jason DeLucia Sensei's classes, we start learning kaeshiwaza practically from the beginning. First we learn a technique; then after we've practiced it, we learn something else to do if the first technique fails; then we learn a third technique to use similarly. Sensei tells us to use them like "Rock, paper, scissors" -- as soon as we know one fails, we're in position for the next and the next, and so on.

It's not that difficult; we're learning new techniques anyway, so why not present them in a way that teaches us how they lead into each other?

Wendy Rowe wrote: First we learn a technique; then after we've practiced it, we learn something else to do if the first technique fails; then we learn a third technique to use similarly....

I believe what you are describing is more along the lines of Henka-waza (changing from one technique to another). Kaeshi-waza are reversal techniques. Nage attempts a technique, leaves an opening, and uke uses this opening to do a counter technique.

Of course I could be wrong

Bronson

Bronson is correct.

Bronson Diffin wrote: I believe what you are describing is more along the lines of Henka-waza (changing from one technique to another). Kaeshi-waza are reversal techniques. Nage attempts a technique, leaves an opening, and uke uses this opening to do a counter technique.

My mistake, not my sensei's; I must have gotten a wire crossed somewhere. Or, in the immortal words of Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live, "Never mind!"

Now that my henka/kaeshi confusion is cleared up: We generally practice one technique over and over, on both sides, then do the same with its variations as I'd said. For our next step, we use those techniques in "swapping throws" -- the partners take turns doing techniques on each other (or trying to do techniques on each other; they don't always work), choosing from what they know that fits the situation. It's more controlled than randori since they're taking turns, and it gives the partners an opportunity to look for openings left over after the partner's attempt and to exploit those openings. THAT'S kaeshiwaza, right?

I don't get the connection some draw from Kaeshi-waza to competitive nature. In our dojo, we learn Kaeshi-waza once the student is mature enough to learn them. As one progress, one comes to realize there is not a list of techniques and possible counters, rather each technique has lots of opportunities for easy, un forced, execution.

Kaeshi-waza is just learning of another opportunity to perform the technique in another context. This context is slightly more difficult some times, though is should not be for the experienced student.

The nature of Randori we practice, with a blur of Tori & Nage (both attack and react freely) creates situations in which students come to use Kaeshi-waza even before they learn it formally, they feel the opportunity and go with it. And no, that Randori is not competitive and one does not keep any score on it.

Amir

Just my two cents worth from the Yoseikan perspective. We have an entire kata of reversals that is learned at Dan ranks but we teach students from day one that any technique can be reversed. It is especially true when new students start with the, "well I could just do this if you do that" conversations. I appreciated the discussion of how we all approach reversals and it is easy to see that we have a language barrier with regard to how we name each technique.

I would also like to note that some folks indicate that having a technique reversed means you did not do the technique correctly to begin with. That is true for beginners but for those who have practiced and teach, every technique has an opening. In Yoseikan, our logo of sky, mountain and river extends outside the circle of our patch in recognition of this. As Master Hiroo Mochizuki points out, there is no perfect technique. Every technique can be countered, if you possess the knowledge, sensitivity and ki to find the opening.

We do a light randori (kyeoi randori) that is a continuous "feedback" loop if you will, that is application of technique, reversal of that technique and so forth. It teaches each student that there is no perfect technique and the sensitivity to find new answers. We call this a conversation in Yoseikan - I ask, you answer, I answer and ask again, etc. The fall comes when you are asked a question you cannot answer. Then we begin again. Again, every technique can be reversed, if one possesses enough answers to the questions asked.

Phil Farmer

Although you asked for Aikido techniques, I believe reading Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do could be quite enlightening. He doesn't explain too many formal techniques, however he does bring to light many similiar ones. I've personally integrated some of his ideas into my own classes. Hope it helps!

That's interesting. I absolutely don't agree that every technique can be countered.

I think that as long as the person is doign the right thing, at the right time, in the right position then you should not argue. If your technique accounts for those factors then the uke should take ukemi and there should be no other options besides the suicide/kamakazi responce - and I have hope that I'll learn how to deal with that kind of thing optimally as well.

Rob

Rob Liberti wrote: I think that as long as the person is doign the right thing, at the right time, in the right position then you should not argue.

Exactly. And if the person you are training with is better at the above than you are or is able to predetermine your intended path and then blend with your movement and redirect it, then chances are that person's Kaeshiwaza will be more likely to end up in a completed technique, unless of course you can use his energy and apply a reversal of your own.

The beauty of counters and its effect on raising the level of our practice is that we can use the energy of "correct, centred and stable" movements and destabilise or redirect them in a manner to aid in our own technique. Kaeshiwaza is not only a reactive practice, but a proactive one where we learn to quickly read (and intuit) the motion patterns of our partner and find ways to use it to our advantage. In this way all techniques can be countered if the correct combination of sensitivity and technical knowledge are combined. It's like going with the flow so you can change the course of the river imho.

The key to having "uncounterable" technique may lie in being continuously sensitive to slight changes in your partner's movements so that you can cancel or render ineffective any movements your partner may use to counter your initial technique before he executes them. Of course this gets to the point where the one who is more sensitive and quicker to apply an effective response is the one who is able to execute a technique that cannot be cancelled or countered.

I actually use this a lot when we practice kaeshiwaza, I will give my partner a false sense of security that he will get off a relatively easy technique and remain totally relaxed and compliant until the instant when I reverse his technique and apply one of my own. It works beautifully in resistance randori. Of course if he is sensitive enough he can counter my counter and off we go, which is why relaxation is so important to maintain one's sensitivity in the midst of applying technique, especially during resistance practice. But the key is to catch them when they are almost 100% sure that it is impossible to escape, sort of like moving at the very last second in tai sabaki and letting your attacker believe that he has hit you when you in fact have him as you evade and he is plunged into a vacuum of total confusion - (mental kuzushi?).

Just my 2 cents.
LC

I agree. In the ideal situation, you should be able to do something fairly unstoppable by most people provided they give an honest and commited attack. In reality, there are often weaknesses which can be exploited and addressed by collaborative practice.

Here is a related story I heard: After Yamaguchi sensei had been a shihan for several decades, someone apparently said to him something like 'it must be nice to be able to do shomenuchi ikkyo to anyone' and the story goes that he responded 'yeah, I've really felt like I could do it to anyone these past couple years or so'. So, while I think the ideal is attainable, I think that the bar is set pretty high and that is just for shomenuchi - which is more of a symbolic attack than anything else.

Rob

Roger Evans wrote: I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido. Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc. Information would be greatly appreciated Roger Evans

I'm sure more qualified people than myself have already replied, but I think if you consider counters in terms of principles it makes it easier. Every technique can be countered, provided there is enough slack in your own position (ie-you're not too over-extended).
With shihonage I've countered by dropping the engaged elbow and turning toward them, ending up ura, but I had to engage my own center first and reach through my palm; I've countered by simply reaching through my palm to "push" nage backward. Sometimes, I counter it and sometimes I come close to doing so and sometimes I'm nowhere near it...lately, via a lack of training, it's usually the latter.
Sankkyo can often be countered if you're able to bend your pinkie and then drop your elbow...I learned a very cool nikkyo counter where instead of going down as uke, we entered and put out wrist on our own chest, dropped our center and pivoted. If your timing is good, you'll throw nage or off-balance him enough to do something else.

Rob Liberti wrote: That's interesting. I absolutely don't agree that every technique can be countered. Rob

I think it depends on the relative positioning. There is definately a point where you simply cannot negotiate, and the better you are, the less "negotiating" uke will be able to do. However, every motion itself can be redirected, and in this sense, any technique can be "countered." I tend to not like the word "counter" because it implies a reactionary mind-frame to me, but with proper balance and awareness, one can harmonize with any movement and make it their own.

I think that not acknowleging counter techniques from day one is dangerous and unmartial. I've done many martial arts and I often find brilliant opertunities to use them while I'm uking. Of course since it's training I've never actually put them to use but I know they're there. Ju-jitsu especially seems to offer plenty of of ways of distrupting and countering. Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to. I think Aikido is very much about "the expected" where everything fits very neatly into a series of kata with an uke that co-operates and is harmonized with us. This isn't a healthy envoirnonment in my opinion and throwing the occasional spanner in the works would be very useful in making sure that we don't settle into a mindset which expects a predictable series of events and in turn makes us into automatons (Tori mind). "Uke mind" is not the same mindset as someone off the street who wants to attack you. Even when Uke resists I find that they are resisting the technique rather than resisting me. I might have an uke on the floor during ikkyo struggling to lift my entire body weight, which incidently I don't have a lot of, with their shoulder when it would be so much easier for them to move to the side and stand up or sweep my leg and push me back thus tipping me over.

Also my experience of counters is that they are essentially Aikido techniques to counter Aikido techniques rather than usually fairly common sence ways as described above.
Returning to the idea of sweeping (or reaping), I've noticed being free from counter attack during a technique in Aikido usually means that uke's fist can't reach tori's jaw and this is often demonstrated. Often though uke's fist will quite easily reach well past tori's balls and uke's legs can quite easily sweep tori's feet or uke ends up in a position to put in a round house kick etc. I think these qualify as counters.
Yet this kind of thing doesn't exist within Aikido and so it's regarded as not existing. Thus the first time most Aikidoka are likely to see it is when their attacker uses it and at that time none of their training will be relevent. So I think it's important to occasionally point out these things during training so that at least if it happens in real life it isn't a total surprise in a potentially life or death situation.

Alex Lawrence wrote: Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to.

Hi Alex,

I am wondering why you would do this? And if you disagree with this idea, why would you train at such a place?

Charles

Alex Lawrence wrote: Often I find that I take ukemi not because the technique requires me to but because I am expected to.

I can relate to that -- much of aikido training is being in harmony with the other person, either as uke or as nage... and countering a technique may or may not be appropriate. Sometimes, you need to instruct the nage how to perform the technique properly by putting yourself in the position you should be in had they executed it correctly. On the other hand, a firm counter can be used to tell nage that they're still not doing it right, and why. As Tohei Sensei use to say, "Case by Case".

Uke's job is to constantly be on the offensive without self-endangerment -- the technique isn't over until the pin is compete (and if zanshin is proper, not even then). And the simplest counter is often the most effective -- atemi.

IMHO, if one is uke for someone of ones' own level or higher, and you feel you have an opening for a punch, kick, or grab (and the other person is not going to inadvertently injure you, or you them, in the showing of this "opening"), then go for it. If the opening is "real," then there is a flaw in the execution of the technique. You have to test their defenses to see if what they are doing is really effective.

Sometimes, in practice, what I saw as an opening was just another opportunity to experience pain . More often, it mean that the nage had not yet "found" the complete technique, yet, and was either out of position (not in a safe place), or poorly executing the lock or throw (e.g. entered with their elbow extended, begging for a counter). Sometimes, too, it was because I was being a poor uke, and was not committing to the original attack and was already looking for a secondary opening.

IMHO, gentle atemi and such counters are another way of telling uke, "that's not IT, yet." Usually, actions speak louder than words to convey the message, and express it more eloquently.

I take ukemi because I feel that I am learning an art and it's a "when in rome" thing.
I stay in the dojo because I like the place and the people and I've done other arts so I know how to look after myself. Also I've started back at Ju-jitsu. All this means that I can just do Aikido for the enjoyment of doing Aikido.