Will Aikido really work?

I mean, getting Steven Seagal CAN work sometimes though...His meathods aren't completely unfounded.

Duval my friend you know why they work because Mr. Seagal CONSTRAINED with people who go from Gracie Jujitsu to Jun Fan and Kali with Inosanto (who by the way played the role of sticks in one of his movies) so do the same Duvi man crosstrain oh and by the way ask in Cali about the time the 22 y/old shoot fighter choke out Steve boy don't believe me just search and thou will see the truth my Aikido friend The Evil Ways will Continue,......... (until my wife tells me to take the garbage out............. but hey!!!!)

[b] The common question: will aikido work? Is a typical common question. The seriousness of that question changes over years of training. Katatetori is the first part of the attack. It is an excellent way to train. It is a way of training your movement while you are being restrained. You can't focus on the restraint, because katate tori is always "more than that." In gassho, tamonmark

Hello all,

Saito Sensei once said that in a real combat situation aikido will not look anything like aikido in class. He says specifically that it is 99% atemi, the line between omote and ura blurs, and that many of aikido's techniques lose their meaning if atemi is left out. (His tape that accompanies the 5 volume series "Traditional Aikido")
Unfortunately when I was younger and far more stupid (in college =0) I worked the doors at a few of our local bars. Partially for money, but mostly to see if what I was spending 4 days a week and another 3 thinking about and solo training for would work in "real life"...
I found everything that Saito Sensei said to be completely true. I'm an extremely "muscularly" strong individual, but short (5'9''). Me trying to do a beautiful, textbook ikkyo on a 6'5'' out of control, young, in shape college student was rediculous. However, by gradually learning to use the PRINCIPLES of movement that we practiced in class every day, I found breaking up fights, and handling my own to be simple. It never looked anything like class, but the movements were all the same.
I believe there is also much to be learned from true shugyo. Tenacity and mental endurance go a long way in real fighting situations. Many...many times it came down to me being in much better physical and mental condition than the other person.
One more small detail...people get hit in real fights....even us aikidoka...hehehe... Real fights are nasty, dirty, screaming, gouging, biting, pulling, and bloody. The sooner that this is realized and expected, the easier it will be to deal with it in an aiki way. (Just because YOU are training for peace and for the protection of your opponents does NOT mean that they are.)
Yes, MY aikido has worked very well in fights. If I face those who I've trained hard enough to survive against, I will survive...When I face those who are stronger, I will lose...It is as simple as that. Of course, I could walk outside and get hit by a car. (Which I haven't started training for yet) Which is exactly why I don't worry so much about this stuff anymore.

Hope any of this helps...
Beau

Beau I like your thinking man ... you are OK in my book

that was a cool post, and this is my first. hi.

Beau,

Great post but it brings up a question.
"Saito Sensei once said that in a real combat situation aikido will not look anything like aikido in class. He says specifically that it is 99% atemi, the line between omote and ura blurs, and that many of aikido's techniques lose their meaning if atemi is left out."

Roughly how much time is dedicated to training in atemi?

In most of the dojos and seminars I've visited or attended you are likely to see little if any atemi pratice. To me this seems like a weak link kin the training methods of many a adojo.

Chris

Chris,

Training in atemi is something that I personally think needs to change with the student base found in modern aikido. From what I understand, back in the days when Saito sensei and the other predominant shihan were young, aikido's students were well versed in other martial arts, therefore eliminating a need to focus on atemi.

I think another reason why instructors are reserved about teaching atemi is that it makes an easy excuse for beginning students. (I don't know how many times...I've done this myself =0)....I've heard someone that couldn't make a technique work say "Yeah, but I could have just hit you) It is probably far more productive in the beginning for people to learn how to properly apply techniques without "softening" uke up first. I also think that there are many instructors now that have never studied atemi themselves, making it impossible for them to teach it properly.

Beau

Beau,

Thanks for the response. I'm glad to see that at least someone else out there thinks along the same lines! It sounds like you and I are on the same page.

My understanding is that most of O'Sensei's students had some proficiency in other arts so I agree that they would already have gained some skill in atemi. Though I think many people today seem to forget this and believe that all O'Sensei or his deshi did was aikido.

I've also experience the "I could just hit him here" when I have trouble with technique. Here is the difficult line to walk as I agree that to get proficient in the technique you need to work it and learn it.

However, in my personal opinion it would be stupid to not take advantage of other options should you need them. I personally have no problem using a lock to open up striking opportunities. I don't think techniques are really the "goal" of aikido anyway. I see them as tools to train prinicples and options to create more options. But from what I'm seeing from some dojos, techniques are becoming the end goal.

Using ikkyo as an example I know that I sometimes get the uke bent over but then have some difficulty getting them to the ground. If completing an ikkyo is my goal, then I need to learn how to do it while keeping the technique "pure". But if controlling an attacker and ending a threat using the principles I've learned is my goal than I will certainly consider any number of things for this bent-over, semi controlled but oh so exposed attacker.

Chris

Xu Wenfung wrote: Hi friends, Just saw this yesterday on my way back from work. Two young male homo sapiens were at each other near where I work (what the argument was all abt, I don't know). One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):- a) Subject A's position b) Subject B's position Please feel free to discuss... Truly, Boon.

Well, as I'm a 6th kyu, I won't even try to say what is the best Aikido-technique to apply, but I think that If I where in Subject A's Position, i would stop attacking, and think about what the heck I was doing trying to whack someone with a walking stick in the first place.

If I where in Subject B's position... probably throw the helmet on Subject A, and run.

But I don't really end up in these kind of situations very often. Haven't happened yet, and if I behave, the chances are slim that I will end up in one.(I hope). And isn't avoiding conflict in the first place Aikido too?

Xu Wenfung wrote: snip ..One subject (let's call him subject A) was holding a wooden walking stick and furiously trying to whack the other subject's head (using shomenushi type stroke). Subject B, was holding a motorcycle crash helmet blocking subject A's attack. Subject A repetitively try to hit Subject B whilst he keep blocking it using the helmet. For discussion / argument / good forum practice sake, how would you handle such a situation if you are in (kindly limit the discussion to aikido techniques/principles):- a) Subject A's position b) Subject B's position Please feel free to discuss...

Boon,

Subject A - the aggressor with the walking stick must be the guy having the problems. Emotionally=anger, physically=walking stick. Solution=cool off.
Subject B - the guy defending with the crash helmet. Cool guy who did not counter-attacked but parried the strikes with his helmet, maybe giving A the opportunity to cool off - Good aiki technique.

What would I do if I'm B? For a start, my Nolan open-face helmet cost me > than a grant, using my helmet is out of the question. Since A was using the shomenuchi type of strikes, off-line avoidance would suffice. If he had changed to a yokomen strike, I would apply a heavy-handed strike to point on his hand (behind the thumb) causing him to drop the cane. From experience, I think the fight would have ended before it actually begun.

That's just sen.

David

Aikido doesn't always work in a "real fight"...
One of my sempai once got into a fight with a minibus driver.. The driver attacked and my sempai reacted by putting him in an ikkyo pin... The driver promptly protested (something like: "Hey! Hey! Not like this! Not like this!" )
Obviously, some people think that if you are "fighting" somebody, you have to trade punches and kicks... So, using silly things like pins and throws doesn't count!

Regards,
Joezer

^^ LOL! Thanks.

Hormat,

Mas Mike

I know people here are from all over the world and live in different situations, but don't you really get to a point in your life when you don't worry so much about being attacked or in a fight? I know one thing that I have learned in my very short career in Aikido is to be aware of your surroundings and what's going on around you. And as Christian said, "Isn't avoiding conflict part of Aikido too?" I don't think I have been in a fight since I was in the 8th grade. I don't like fighting, but I like Aikido...ALOT. I didn't start Aikido at this late point in my life to learn how to beat people up. I just felt like I had to do something for myself and I'm glad I did. I know other people have their own reasons for doing Aikido, but sheesh, I have seen so many different threads on this forum and others about the same subject that I sometimes think some people are obsessed with it.

I think it is normal to ponder the martial effectiveness of your training in situations. While it often proves to be a fatal trap type paradigm, it is one we all fall prey to from time to time. This is a martial art and at the base level most of us want to believe that our training will hold up.

What is "fatal", IMHO, is fear, that mainfest itself in "situational training", that is trying to apply aikido, or any martial art, to a particular set of events like a gun point mugging, or a knife point mugging, there are too many variables to consider to adequately prepare yourself for that particular situation.

Also, IMHO, there is not an "art" (aikido) specific response that is appropriate. You use what you have at your disposal.

I do think Aikido or any decent martial art can prepare you to be a better person, carry yourself with more confidence, hone your situational/environmental awareness skills, and prepare you martially to fair much better with conflict. All those things are good.

I think as a western society (U.S.) that one of the things we are grappling with is fear. This is the real enemy in my opinion.

Outside of the physical aspects of the art, I was curious if put in a situation where you must defend yourself, the Aikido mentallity has been even more a benefactor then a technique? I just recently earned my 7th kyu, and before I started Aikido I reacted a lot of emotion and not off of logic. In my short period of training, I've learned so much mentally. Controlling adreinaline and your "Fight or Flee" instincts seems SO important. I know most arts teach a certain amount of discipline, but to me I think Aikido revolves around it.

Chris Ward wrote: but unfortunately in every effort in which I have had to defend myself noone was grabbing my wrist, they were either trying to kick me low, like in the knee or shin, or trying to box me while they bounced around in a circular motion. I can only assume the futher I get along in my training I will learn how to defend myself in these respects? I apprecaite any and all responses....

Hi Chris, I'm sure you've been given great answers by now, but I'd like to chime in if for no other reason than to think about what you just said here.
In a gaurded position with your arm(s) out, often people will try to suppress the lead arm and attack through that area. I've had it done to me. This is a case for wrist techniques. Another example is that if you remove the wrist, the vector of attack is still directed at you, whether it's closed fist or not. You still need to move your body/hara based on this so you aren't in the path of that intention. When asked similar questions, i compare a wrist grab to a relatively low punch. I've been taken down very quickly with a wrist grab (yonkkyo); as quickly as if I had been struck by a powerful punch...it's much like the one-inch-punch concept of generating much power in a short distance.

Matthew Gano wrote: In a gaurded position with your arm(s) out, often people will try to suppress the lead arm and attack through that area. I've had it done to me. This is a case for wrist techniques..

Its A case.

There was a major thread dealing with grabs to the wrist recently.

While accepting that it is possible for someone to grab in this way I hope I am not alone in seeing katate dori etc as primarily useful for developing distance awareness within safe practice.

As for the general issue ...will aikido work? Yes.

Can we talk about something else now?

D

I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

I'd say then that you need to learn how to move your body in such a way that more than 90% of what you are doing now with your arms can be done instead with your movement and the 10% left of that arm movement is a result of the body movement. Iwork on this every day - every practice. Keep on training...

Colleen Boone wrote: I have a similar question of the effectiveness of aikido in techniques that require Uke to continue to grab for the wrist. when showing friends or whoever some of these techniques I've asked them to grab my wrist and they go to grab it but don't continue to go for it. so in a real life situation would the attacker continue to go for the wrist or change the attack? I would think they would change the attack instead of following the leading hand

I've developed a rule of thumb over the years that if something pops up in more than one martial art or training program, it's probably important and you should pay attention to it.

I once participated in a women's self defense seminar where one of the techniques practiced against was a wrist grab. I've seen a counter to it in Kali, too, the idea being the other person has grabbed with one hand and is punching with the other one, something Aikido also looks at.

So it's a valid attack IMHO.

Michael Gallagher wrote: I've developed a rule of thumb over the years that if something pops up in more than one martial art or training program, it's probably important and you should pay attention to it. I once participated in a women's self defense seminar where one of the techniques practiced against was a wrist grab. I've seen a counter to it in Kali, too, the idea being the other person has grabbed with one hand and is punching with the other one, something Aikido also looks at. So it's a valid attack IMHO.

Michael is correct imho.

Often we can look at something out of it's intended environment and come to incorrect assumptions. In the dojo even though Uke is grabbing you he is most often not "seriously" attacking you. In the case of the serious attack they often do hold on to either strike you or prohibit you from striking them or hitting with a weapon, so it is a very valid attack imo as well. This also comes from personal experience being attacked as well. Sometimes it's not too healthy to overanalyse things without correctly understanding the conditions under which it is supposed to be happening.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

For those talking about wrist grabs, my instructor often demonstrates how katate dori comes about.

Esentially, it's similar to marote dori, start with a shomen (or similar), nage blocks, uke cuts down nage's hand grabs the wrist, continues the cut and punches nage in the face. By grabbing the wrist and continuing the cut you pull nage down into your punch, which makes them easier to hit and puts their weight in a spot where their hips are hard to engage.

The point at which uke grabs the cut down hand is the point that nage can engage techniques from a wrist grab. For berevity and to make timing easier, in class we usually just start from this point statically, but uke should still have engaged hips and be trying to drive nage's weight down so they can't use their hip's easily.

One of my sempai showed me "The Aikido Attack" technique the other night: You point your finger in the face of your opponent and voila- Katate waza!

If I see someone put their hand in a fire and get burned I don't need to put my hand in the fire to know it's hot.

In our dojo we are lucky enough to have several police officers and a gentleman who works in the state mental hospital (he probably has the most real life technique experience of anyone I've met). They ALL tell me that wrist grabs (with and/or without striking with the other hand), two handed front chokes, collar/clothing grabs, etc are common "real world" attacks. The people attacking aren't usually taking a fighting stance and trying to "duke it out"...they are often enraged and fully commited to your immediate destruction.

When they tell me it happens I believe them.

One of the cops that used to train with us said that in his experience when people have "attacker mind" they behave a lot like an attacking dog i.e. they will "attack" the first thing they come to. So if you stick your hand in their face they usually won't just walk into it but will deal with it in some way...either by attempting to knock it away to get to your body or they'll grab onto it in order to control your body.

Again, I believe him.

As for asking your friends to grab your wrist so you can show them the technique....they aren't, in my experience, attacking. They usually don't give any energy or even attempt to have any type of "attacker mind". The one time a friend actually threw a strike at my head like he was trying to damage me I almost dropped him on the back of his skull (we both ended up falling as I tried to catch him as I didn't have nearly the skill needed to slow it down once I'd started).

Anyway, just my thoughts. Yours can, and probably should, vary.

Bronson