Whats the difference?

OUCH!!

Peter, I think this issue strikes a thin place on your epidermal covering somewhere.

I have a pretty good eye (picked up over the past fifty years of practice) and I do see some similarities in principle and form between some of the Daito ryu stuff and Tomiki Sensei's earlier stuff. I don't think Shodokan is emasculated at all. I think it's Nariyama san's image of what he learned from Tomiki Sensei. There are other senior people in the Tomiki (JAA) group whose stuff does not look like the current Shodokan form. There's no problem with that, in my view. It's the way of things.

I don't do either Shodokan or Daito ryu but there are some similarities in my form that is recognizable as coming from that family.

When I look at principle and form, I try not to pay attention to individual style in the analysis so much. There's room for us all, to be sure. If it really works, there's no need for us all to look like peas in a pod.

By the way, it sounds as though you're having a great time on your trip. I'm sure your wife is having a great time with family, etc. Enjoy!

Cheers,

Sorry Chuck I used your post as a jumping off point - it wasn't really directed at anything I thought you meant.

I was referring not so much to this thread as to a commonly stated point of view that Aikido is an emasculated form of Daito Ryu. Check out e-budo where you have people with less than three years in their art convinced they know something no Aikidoist could possibly comprehend no matter how long they study. A view that was touched on by one of Mark's posts - although I must say he was eloquent enough.

Since what I do is Aikido that broad brush paints me and my teachers, and I do think that view is misplaced. Yes it's a pet peeve - I have a few.

I know Shodokan Aikido is not emasculated, you wont even catch me wringing my hands as to whether Aikido works or not. I do think there are training regimes that limit what Aikido can do but that is another question.

My vacation ended two weeks ago - pity it was real nice but I did miss the regular training.

First I want to thank Larry Camejo for politely putting me in my place. I used very sloppy language in my early posts on this thread, which resulted in an overly broad statement. I should have thrown in some phrases like 'In my experience...' or 'From what I have seen...'. I certainly have not experienced every style, type or sect of Aikido, not sure that would even be possible. Therefore it is possible that aiki no jutsu resides in one of those areas I haven't experienced. Heck I'll even concede it could reside in a style I have seen and I just didn't get to see/experience it. I concede to the possibility but I honestly feel that possibility is very, very small. Just my opinion. Larry, thanks for keeping me honest, I will try to be more careful in my word choices.

Peter,

I feel that you have read a sentiment into my posts that is not there. I did not state nor did I imply that Tomiki's legacy is emasculated. My personal feelings are very much the opposite. I am a Tomiki fan....possibly fanatic. I frequently go on buying binges on e-bay purchasing as many different editions of his book as I can (I intend to collect them all). I love reading his work and think about learning to read Japanese just so I can read his work that hasn't been translated (unfortunately I am language impaired so the chances of that happening are right about zero). I think it is a crime that some folks have video of Tomiki and Oba in the 50's and 60's and refuse to share. TAR AND FEATHER THE GUILTY I SAY!!

With that said it doesn't change my opinion about aiki no jutsu, but it doesn't mean I believe his system is emasculated or inferior. First what aiki no jutsu is or isn't is all opinion. Ask 10 different folks and get 10 different opinions, that's just the nature of this beast. Secondly, aiki no jutsu isn't the end-all be-all of any system, it is simply one more problem solving method that 'might' come in handy.

Having aiki no jutsu or not having it doesn't detract from the sheer brillance of the training system that Tomiki developed. Almost every time I work in his system I see new reasons 'why' he developed his system as he did. He was a trained and talented educator and designed his system with that knowledge. His basic 15 (17 if you prefer) cover an amazing amount of ground.

In a relatively small amount of techniques he illustrates the basic movements, body positions, postures, balance lines, entry lines, etc. that encompass some 2000+ Daito-ryu techniques. Some may find that hard to believe but break down almost any Daito-ryu jujutsu technique into it's components and with few exception each of those components can be found in the 15 basic, if one understands what Tomiki is trying to teach with each technique. I believe that was his goal, to create a basic set that students could use as a Lego set to put together in a limitless fashion. Kind of the ABC's of Aikido (Daito ryu. Unfortunately, of the folks I have discussed this with few actually see what he has left us.

Sorry, I went off on a little rant of my own.

What can I say? We both have different experiences and therefore different conclusions. For what it's worth I think you are in a mighty fine system. Enjoy.

mark

Chad Emerson (C. Emerson) wrote: Jun, am I on your list?

No one is on my ignore list.

-- Jun

Mark Jakabcsin wrote: Some may find that hard to believe but break down almost any Daito-ryu jujutsu technique into it's components and with few exception each of those components can be found in the 15 basic, if one understands what Tomiki is trying to teach with each technique. I believe that was his goal, to create a basic set that students could use as a Lego set to put together in a limitless fashion mark

I have zero experience in Tomiki's approach, however what you expressed here sounds a lot like the kihon dosa we use in Yoshinkan aikido.

Appologies to Mark and Chuck and any innocent by-standers. I just felt a need for a rant.

Mark: No need to thank me for anything. I have been guilty of the same for a few times myself.

On another Daito Ryu / Aikido relations note, I was wondering if anyone had experience with both the Aikido (generalised) and Daito Ryu training / application of metsuke in doing technique, tactics etc.

I remember watching a video of K. Kondo speaking about the importance of metsuke (almost as a technical system in its own right) and the "deeper" elements of proper metsuke training. We do exercises to train metsuke in Shodokan, but I was wondering what the differences may be like with the Daito Ryu way of approaching the concept.

It would be nice if someone with some DR and Aikido experience could shed some light.

Domo

L.C.

My experience in Daito ryu is limited, so I can't speak to any details. Generally, I would think that the gaze would be more direct. I believe most aikido goes for a softer focus. Something about risking getting "captured" by the opponant.

In the yoshinkan I've heard people speak of a more direct focus to a specific eye, for instance, for a specific purpose. I'd think there would be more specifics in the daito ryu approach.

While I'm not much into "secrets"...I would echo John Stevens here. There are not so much secrets as there are things that should be transmitted personally. I would think this would apply to some things in both aikido and daito ryu.

This would be one of them, in my opinion.

Ron

Larry,

Following is a passage from Kenji Tomiki's book 'Judo and Aikido' that relates to your question about the eyes. This passage can be found on pages 33-35, 5th edition. I am in a hurry and typed it very quickly and didn't proof read so any typo's are all my fault.

mark

"When you are confronted with an adversary or are fighting with him, it is an important question where you should fix your eyes. In case it is yet to be seen by what means, from what direction, and at what moment the adversary will attack you, on what part of his body should your eyes be fixed?

"The eyes are said to be the window for the mind. They are an index to your mind. Where the eyes are fixed, there the mind is concentrated, and naturally the will is attracted. Where the eyes are kept, there the mind is also kept. The problem of the eyes resolves itself into the question of mentality, "Where should one fix one's mind?"

"There is a book of secrets in fencing entitled ‘Fudochi Shimmeiroku' (Divine Book on Imperturbable Wisdom), which treats the problem in a plain manner. It is said to have been written by the learned Buddhist priest Takuan (1573-1645) for Munenori Yagyu (1571-1646) who was a celebrated master swordsman and fencing instructor to the shogun. It gives an explanation of the problem of the mind according to the Zen doctrine. The author speaks of the fudoshin (imperturbable mind). If the mind is drawn to the forearm, it is kept off the face and vice versa. If your attention is attracted to the abdomen, it is distracted from other spots. Fixing of the mind on one point results in neglecting other points and engendering an opening for a blow. So your attention must not be drawn to anything in particular. Thus the priest concludes that not to fix your mind on one point is to keep it everywhere on the body, to bring it into play at will any moment.

"Takuan also cites as an example the Senju Kannon (Thousand-handed Goddess of Mercy), and says that as attained the supreme wisdom she is not harassed by evil passions and can act with perfect freedom, so that she is able to use her thousand hands as she pleases. Thus the author warns the students of martial arts that they should not allow their mind to be distracted by fear, fright, misgivings and delusions about their adversary. This corresponds to the proposition in the secrets of judo: "With an open mind enter into the mysteries of nature, and with inaction master the principles of changes."

"When confronting an opponent, you should fix your eyes on his face with the eyes as the center. Take care not to open your eyes wide, turn your pupils, wink or fix your gaze only on a particular part. It is important to obtain practice in keeping your eyes on the opponent's face, and moreover see him from head to foot and on both sides. And it is an ideal for the eyes that they will become able, as the old saying goes, ‘to see through the opponent's mind with the inward eye.'"

And people wonder why I'm lured into Tomiki's world.