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Old 08-14-2003, 09:25 AM   #1
C. Emerson
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Whats the difference?

What is the difference between Daito ryu Aikijujutsu or just Aikijujutsu or all of the different ones?
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Old 08-14-2003, 09:41 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Daito ryu is the only art I know of that has a specific curriculm that references aiki -- as in aiki no jutsu. A specific set of techniques that is intended to teach a specific set of principles relating to the use of aiki in technique.

I have seen other arts claiming the teaching of aikijujutsu...almost every single one teaches some varient of what they consider "hard" aikido, or aikido with hard throws, atemi, chokes, etc. Almost every single one of them has no link whatsoever to daito ryu. A few have tenuous links at best.

From my limited exposure to Daito ryu, I'd say "hard" technique is **not** what sets it apart from aikido (strong jujutsu may be a part of what is taught, or not). Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence.

Some notable exceptions would be Toby Threadgill's Shindo Yoshin ryu and Don Angier's art.

My opinion only,

Ron

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Old 08-14-2003, 07:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I have seen other arts claiming the teaching of aikijujutsu...almost every single one teaches some varient of what they consider "hard" aikido, or aikido with hard throws, atemi, chokes, etc. Almost every single one of them has no link whatsoever to daito ryu. A few have tenuous links at best.
One of my dojo regulars has a yondan in Shodokan Aikido and now trains in Daito Ryu in Kobe (an hour by bullet train from his home). He was training in Daito ryu in Tokyo before that teacher died.

His comment was that Daito-ryu is softer than Shodokan Aikido but generally the waza are the same.

Always interesting.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-14-2003, 08:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence.
Ron, I have to admit your post intrigued me very much.

When reading the description you gave I honestly thought that you were describing the Shodokan Aikido we do. The two systems are almost identical from what you give as indicators of strong Daito Ryu influence. Very interesting.

On the other hand, I have also had some experience with Aikijujutsu (not sure if it were Daito Ryu or something else). This was around the same time I started Aikido. A major difference to me was the tendency to rely on devastating atemi on the initiation of contact.

For example, in Shodokan we may do shomen ate to create an opportunity for kuzushi (without actually striking uke) and use that kuzushi to apply kotegaeshi. The Aikijujutsu variant of that (in my experience) was to use shomen ate to pretty much bloody the attacker's face (create as much damage as quickly as possible were the words the instructor used) by striking the centre of the face with the palm and then use kotegaeshi in a very direct way which would usually end in a pin taken very close to the point of dislocation.

Needless to say I stuck with the Aikido which gave me more options than destroying my partner. I will admit however that this is from a style of "Aikijujutsu" that may not have had anything to do with Daito Ryu. As I progressed in Aikido I found that those Aikijujutsu techniques were what I got when I applied the Shodokan training with the intent of doing grievious bodily harm.

Having said that though, I have been exposed to actual Daito Ryu exponents whose techs often appear softer than what we do in Shodokan, and I realise now that like Aikido, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu can be manifested in many many ways and can appear at both ends of the "hard" or "soft" spectrum. Depending on the dojo you encounter there may be no difference at all, besides the picture of the person on the shomen .

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.

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Old 08-15-2003, 05:50 AM   #5
Mark Jakabcsin
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"When reading the description you gave I honestly thought that you were describing the Shodokan Aikido we do. The two systems are almost identical from what you give as indicators of strong Daito Ryu influence. Very interesting."

Remember Tomiki's early certificates from Ueshiba were in Daito-ryu. Also remember that in the late 20's when Tomiki did his most intensive training with Ueshiba, Ueshiba hadn't begun his transformation towards Aikido, but was teaching Daito-ryu. The transformation towards Aikido began more in the mid 30's, when Tomiki, I believe, was in Korea and hence not affected by many/most of these changes.

I believe Tomiki continued to teach what he had learned in the 20's merely adding a teaching method, the orginal 15, in the 50's. Then in the late 50's his (Tomiki's) experimentation began to increase and in the 60's he introduced the 17 Randori techniques and his randori system. Interesting note in his book 10 years earlier he wrote that Aikido would never lend itself well to randori. Obviously he had changed his mind as he experimented and made changes.

Another note, Tomiki taught occassionally at the hombu into the late 60's. I am told by several sources that were there that Kisshomaru frequently argued with Tomiki, telling him that he should not call his art Aikido but should call it Daito-ryu. Remember by this time Aikido was going under a great deal of change and influence by Tohei.

I bring this up merely to point out that it should not be a surprise that folks see a similarity between Tomiki Aikido and Daito-ryu jujutsu, there is a fairly strong link. As far as Tomiki Aikido having aiki no jutsu techniques I would say no. One would have to ask Tomiki Sensei in the next life why that wasn't included. Perhaps he wasn't taught the aiki-no-jutsu techniques. Perhaps he didn't see the value in them. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Who knows, but they aren't there.

Now that doesn't detract from Tomiki Aikido in the least. IMO, one of the greatest things about Tomiki's work is his 'system' for learning/teaching. Very non-Japanese for the era he lived in, very forward thinking.

Ron wrote: "From my limited exposure to Daito ryu, I'd say "hard" technique is **not** what sets it apart from aikido (strong jujutsu may be a part of what is taught, or not). Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence."

This is a good post, although in my opinion it is a better description of aikijujutsu techniques than it is of aiki no jutsu techniques. Either way good stuff. Take care.

mark

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Mark J.
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Old 08-15-2003, 04:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
I bring this up merely to point out that it should not be a surprise that folks see a similarity between Tomiki Aikido and Daito-ryu jujutsu, there is a fairly strong link.
Agreed. It is not a surprise. Just interesting that after almost 80 years of modification and refinement the principles remain the same pretty much. Shows that the more things change the more they stay the same .
Quote:
As far as Tomiki Aikido having aiki no jutsu techniques I would say no.
What do you define aiki no jutsu techniques to be exactly? Do they exist at all in Aikido today or are they specific elements of Daito Ryu alone?

Interesting stuff.

L.C.

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Old 08-16-2003, 03:02 AM   #7
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Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
What do you define aiki no jutsu techniques to be exactly? Do they exist at all in Aikido today or are they specific elements of Daito Ryu alone?
A bit curious about that statement too.

Mark could you give us an idea of your background in both Tomiki's Shodokan system and Daito Ryu.

I understand some Daito Ryu groups differentiate between Aikijujutsu and Aiki no Jutsu but even semantically I don't understand the difference.

I was actually at a Kobudo demonstration where a Daito Ryu group from Osaka participated last month. They said there would be Aiki no jutsu techniques so I paid quite a bit of attention. I saw nothing that I have not seen in a Shodokan dojo.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-16-2003 at 03:06 AM.

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Old 08-16-2003, 10:49 AM   #8
C. Emerson
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aiki-no-jutsu? What is it.
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Old 08-16-2003, 10:57 AM   #9
C. Emerson
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I think that all of the different styles of jujutsu are very interesting. Aiki, daito, jap and then all of the Korean off shoots of jujutsu. It is very interesting when you look at korean arts and how many of there so called traditional arts are off shoots or are based off of traditional aiki or daito ryu jujutsu.

-Chad
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Old 08-16-2003, 11:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I understand some Daito Ryu groups differentiate between Aikijujutsu and Aiki no Jutsu but even semantically I don't understand the difference.
As I understand these things, "Aiki no jutsu" is a series of 53 (?) actual techniques meant to instruct in Aiki.

"Aikijujutsu" is basically "jujutsu" with "aiki", speaking very generally.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-17-2003, 02:58 AM   #11
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Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
As I understand these things, "Aiki no jutsu" is a series of 53 (?) actual techniques meant to instruct in Aiki.

"Aikijujutsu" is basically "jujutsu" with "aiki", speaking very generally.
That part I understand. However, aside from curriculum, what makes one technique aikijutsu and another aiki no jutusu.

As an aside - considering that the multiple uke pinning was referred to as aiki no jutsu in the demonstration I saw last month.

From Nariyama Shiahns recollections.

About the same time there was some special training with a Daitoryu Aikijujitsu teacher in the small dojo in the Japan Budokan and we joined in immediately. During his demonstration he showed a technique that left an impression on me in particular. He was spread-eagled face up on the tatami with four people holding his ankles and wrists and in an instant these four people were thrown off. We had difficulty believing this because it was difficult enough against just one person in randori practice or a match. It was a very strange spectacle but the talk of all my fellow students was that it didn't appear to be a fake technique. Later I asked Tomiki Shihan about it and his unexpected reply was, "I can do that anytime!". However, straight away I didn't believe him and doubt remained somewhere in my mind.

In July 1979, more than ten years later, the 2nd All Japan Competitive Aikido Meeting was held following on from the previous year. It was organised by the JAA and took place in Shihan's home town of Kakunodate in Akita prefecture. He had only just made a comeback from abdominal surgery in August of the previous year and taught with bandages wrapped around his abdomen. I was nominated as his uke for both days. It was an opportunity for him to show me the technique that I had been shown more than ten years earlier by the Daitoryu teacher. He did it very easily and without effort. Once again, needless to say, I was astonished at the depth of techniques.

Small note: Tomiki Shihan was dead five months later.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-17-2003, 09:41 AM   #12
Mark Jakabcsin
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Peter,

My training experience that is relevant to the topic is Shodokan Aikido -- None. Hence my use of the term Tomiki Aikido instead of Shodokan Aikido. While the Shodokan is the largest organization it is not the only one that traces its roots back to Tomiki. We (the group I train with) trace back to Tomiki through Jack Mumpower, who trained with Tomiki and Oba in the late 50's and early 60's. Mumpower was trained before there was a Shodokan, before Tomiki developed randori, and before the 17 randori techniques were developed. Mumpower is a difficult man on his best days and organizations have never been his thing. At some point Mr. Tomiki dispatched a senior student to the US to teach Jack the 17 so we are familiar with them but prefer the 15.

As for Daito-ryu, we (the group I train with) were a part of the Roppokai (Daito-ryu) for a few years. Hosted Okamoto many times here in the US, took trips to Japan to train and trained with Okamoto at other locations in the US when possible. That relationship became extremely difficult and we left several years ago, although we still train and develop what we have been taught. If you like, you can go to Okamoto's site and check out the letter he posted 3 days ‘after' he received our letter of withdraw from his organization.

Back on topic.

The questions posed above: What makes a technique aiki no jutsu? Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito ryu? This topic was discussed at great length over on e-budo (aikijujutsu section) several years ago. Unfortunately some of the best stuff was lost when e-budo crashed several years ago. That discussion is referred to by the e-budo posters as the First Great Aiki War, which occurred P.C. (Pre-Crash). After Crash (A.C.) there have been some decent discussions on the topic that can be looked up with relative ease. Although I caution these posts are not for the timid or easily offend. Tempers and egos flared, sometimes to childish proportions. I certainly acknowledge that at times my participation was not as adult as I would have liked. One other sad note is that two of the posters felt it necessary to go back long after the discussion was over and edit or delete every one of their posts. This is unfortunate since it makes the reading difficult to follow and it eliminates some good info and insight. However, with all of that said, some may still find it interesting reading.

This is a very difficult discussion to tackle in the training hall let alone on the Internet. The first question can take years training to start to understand if ever. Even then opinions can and will vary greatly as seen in the referenced e-budo discussions. IMO, aiki no jutsu is best summed up in the Supreme Courts opinion on pornography. When the Supreme Court was asked to define what makes something pornography instead of art, they basically said they couldn't give a definitive definition but they knew it (porn) when they saw it. Aiki and aiki no jutsu are basically the same, you know it when you see it. The story from Nariyama Sensei is a perfect example.

The big problem when discussing this topic is that each of our frames of reference is different, in some cases very different. If I begin to discuss the basics of aiki no jutsu everyone will simply say, ‘ah yes, we do that too, hence we do have aiki no jutsu.' Example, Okamoto states the three basic principles of aiki are breathing, circular motion and controlled response. Is there anyone on here that doesn't feel breathing and circular motion are part of their basic principles? Probably not. Yet that doesn't mean they are the same or even related, conveying this in words is difficult to the point of uselessness. I didn't use to feel that way but it is hard enough to convey this understanding in the training hall over months and years of practice let alone the written word. To further my point look at the third basic principle of ‘controlled response'. I suspect a fairly large number of you reading this feel that means ‘uke tanks'. It doesn't but when people see good aiki no jutsu and don't have experience with it they can't understand what happened. So they simply believe uke took a dive. It is easier for them to accept that and write it off.

The second question is only slightly easier. Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu? The following is my opinion and I give it knowing that others will disagree, so be it. Chris mentioned that aiki no jutsu technique is a collection of 53 specific techniques. I acknowledge that this was probably true at one time but I don't believe the essence of aiki no jutsu is in a specific technique or collection. Nor is that essence limited to a mere 53 applications. Aiki no jutsu is a concept of application of basic principles that becomes limitless. The 53 techniques are simply a method of teaching the concept, i.e. the techniques in and of themselves are limited, the key is understand the how's and why's and being able to apply those how's and why's.

I bring this up because I do believe that other arts outside of Daito-ryu use and have the same/similar concepts of application. So the answer to ‘is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu?' is NO. The similar concepts of aiki no jutsu can be found in a few other arts, even if specific techniques aren't. The concepts and ability to apply those concepts in a changing environment are what aiki no jutsu is really all about. Others disagree and their thoughts can be found on those e-budo posts…….if they haven't deleted them.

Honestly I feel bad about this post, like I am copping out but it really will take hands on study by interested parties for an extended period of time to begin to understand. No post I could write could possibly convey the knowledge found in experience. In some of the threads on e-budo I wrote a great deal more, perhaps those will help. Sorry.

mark

Take care,


Mark J.
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Old 08-17-2003, 11:04 AM   #13
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
The second question is only slightly easier. Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu? The following is my opinion and I give it knowing that others will disagree, so be it. Chris mentioned that aiki no jutsu technique is a collection of 53 specific techniques. I acknowledge that this was probably true at one time but I don't believe the essence of aiki no jutsu is in a specific technique or collection. Nor is that essence limited to a mere 53 applications. Aiki no jutsu is a concept of application of basic principles that becomes limitless. The 53 techniques are simply a method of teaching the concept, i.e. the techniques in and of themselves are limited, the key is understand the how's and why's and being able to apply those how's and why's.
What I meant was that "aiki no jutsu" is a name of a specific part of the Daito-ryu curriculum. Of course, "aiki" can be applied in other techniques, but then you are using the word "aiki no jutsu" in a different meaning than as the name of part of the curriculum.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-17-2003, 12:08 PM   #14
Mark Jakabcsin
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Chris,

I understood exactly what you meant, not sure if you understood the direction I am headed. By most accounts S. Takeda did not have an organzied curriculum. His son attempted the organization later on. A potential problem with organizing such a thing is that the organization becomes limits and boundries placed on students.

Perhaps S. Takeda understood this limitation and that is why he never attempted an organization of the system. Perhaps he wanted folks to focus on the root principles, understand them and apply them in a limitless fashion. To me lack of boundries is the power and beauty in aiki no jutsu, understanding that IS the curriculum. A rigid curriculum cause folks to disregard anything that doesn't strictly adhere to what they perceive as the cirriculum. What they end up disregarding is exactly what they should be learning. Freedom and creativity.

Therefore, when I am using the phrase 'aiki no jutsu' I am refering to a specific portion of the curriculum. However, I am not limiting myself to a set number of techniques, I am refering to a method of response and application, not specific technique. Based on my understanding at present this understanding of method is far more important than specific technique. Perhaps my views will change in the future. Take care.

mark

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Mark J.
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:00 PM   #15
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Thanks Mark for both the background and the expansion.

Jack Mumpower may have kept to a particular point in Tomiki's developement of his system but is well respected over here. Actually pretty much anywhere. I have a quick question - do you practice the Koryu Goshin no Kata or any of the other kata sets. I must also say (and it relates to your comment about restrictions) is that the kata sets are a framework not a limitation. There is quite a bit of depth to Tomiki's system and again what prompted my post was the assertation that there was nothing comparable to aiki no jutsu within the Shodokan system. A couple of months back we were working on pinning multiple uke's - I failed miserably.

The yondan I mentioned above train in Roppokai - he is very impressed with the teacher and knowing who he compares him to - he must be good. I am thinking of joining him one evening but more I can't manage.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-17-2003, 08:30 PM   #16
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Peter,

One of our Jiyushinkai members has been in Japan now for over three years and has been practicing Daito ryu. He was promoted to shodan about a year ago in Daito ryu. His teacher "borrowed" a couple of our training tapes and kept them for three months, as I heard this story..., and when he brought them back he said that his teacher and others liked what they saw. However, they said we were not doing "aikido" but, in fact, we were doing Daito ryu.

On another occasion at one of our dojo in California, a fellow said that he recognized what they were doing as very similar to part of the Daito ryu catalog consisting of aiki no jutsu. What he was watching was two or our people practicing the Koryu dai san and the dai yon kata. I did not meet this guy but heard that he told our guys that he lived in Japan and had been training in Daito ryu for some years.

I really don't care much what it is called. A rose by any other name....

From what I have seen, on two occasions, of K. Kondo san, there is quite a lot of similarity in Tomiki's method left over from the early years with Ueshiba.

Good discussion guys, Thanks.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-18-2003, 07:03 AM   #17
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Very well said Chuck.

I think what we need to remember in online postings is that something may not appear to be generalised to us, but it may be to others.

By saying "Tomiki aikido has ..... or does not have ...." is an example of a generalisation that does not take into account the different training patterns and unique ways of operation of different schools that follow Tomiki's way of thought, or any other influential individual for that matter. The same elements of creativity that Mark referred to in an earlier post are also in evidence here - different dojos train differently.

This is why I refer to styles and organisations by their definitive name, as we see the different, yet similar replies from Shodokan and Jiyushinkai, both Tomiki-based schools which focus on different elements of his teaching.

Mark himself admits that he trains in a system that takes a certain part of Tomiki's teaching "before there was a Shodokan" and "prefer the 15" to the junanahon. This is another element of that creativity and freedom of expression that is Aikido. But it does not enable one to make sweeping statements of Tomiki's concepts, as there are also other expressions, including the one he personally tried to develop for his own reasons, which is Shodokan.

I agree with Mark there are certain things that are not easily or cannot be put into words. This is why we must very carefully choose the words that we do use.

In the Spirit of Budo

Onegaishimasu

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-18-2003 at 07:06 AM.

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Old 08-18-2003, 08:41 AM   #18
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A different slant?

I've been reading a book called "The Hidden Roots of Aikido - Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu. The author is Shiro Omiya.

The author refers to 'three distinct methods for applying a technique and controlling an opponent" - Daitoryu Jujutsu, Daitoryu Aiki Jujutsu and Daitoryu Aiki no Jutsu, and then proceeds to demontrate the same technique (ippon dori) using each of the three methods.

He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:50 AM   #19
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He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.
Enquiring minds want to know...

Bronson

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Old 08-18-2003, 11:52 AM   #20
C. Emerson
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So i'm clear, daito ryu jujutsu doesn't have any aiki or doesn't focus on it in there techniques. Because if it did it would be named daito ryu aikijujutsu. If not, whats the differance between the two.
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Old 08-18-2003, 12:26 PM   #21
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Re: A different slant?

Quote:
Justin McCarthy (justinm) wrote:
I've been reading a book called "The Hidden Roots of Aikido - Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu. The author is Shiro Omiya.

The author refers to 'three distinct methods for applying a technique and controlling an opponent" - Daitoryu Jujutsu, Daitoryu Aiki Jujutsu and Daitoryu Aiki no Jutsu, and then proceeds to demontrate the same technique (ippon dori) using each of the three methods.

He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.
There's a thread on eBudo somewhere, but Shiro Omiya's credentials are somewhat questionable. Whether he knows what he's talking about or not I have no idea.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-18-2003, 12:27 PM   #22
Chuck Clark
 
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Mr. Emerson,

There seems to be a problem, you should contact Jun, as it appears that you're not receiving all of the posts that have been added pertaining to your original question.

Daito ryu certainly does contain elements of their curriculum that specifically deal with "aiki". Judo doesn't have aiki within it's name, but really good judo certainly has aiki principles in it. Watch film of Mifune Kyuzo, Kodokan 10th dan and you'll see lots of real aiki waza.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-18-2003, 12:30 PM   #23
akiy
 
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
There seems to be a problem, you should contact Jun, as it appears that you're not receiving all of the posts that have been added pertaining to your original question.
Provided you don't have people on your ignore list, this should be post number 23 in this thread...
Quote:
Daito ryu certainly does contain elements of their curriculum that specifically deal with "aiki". Judo doesn't have aiki within it's name, but really good judo certainly has aiki principles in it. Watch film of Mifune Kyuzo, Kodokan 10th dan and you'll see lots of real aiki waza.
Yup. Quite agreed...

-- Jun

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Old 08-18-2003, 10:34 PM   #24
C. Emerson
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Jun, am I on your list?
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Old 08-18-2003, 10:57 PM   #25
PeterR
 
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
I really don't care much what it is called. A rose by any other name....
I think I still prefer to refer to what I do as Aikido although as I stated elsewhere - if my teacher decided to call what he did something else I would follow his lead.

Still the idea that somehow Aikido is an emasculated form of Daito ryu because it does not have this or that comes up frequently enough that my hackles rise.

The Shodokan curriculum is very different from the curriculum of any of the Daito Ryu styles. Hey its very different from any of the other Aikido styles. That means that there are things that I can do better at my level than people from other styles and conversely things that I am less brilliant at. Without a doubt there are waza performed regularily in some dojos that I have never or rarely seen. However, broadly speaking, I'll say it again. At least with respect to Shodokan Aikido and Daito ryu I have yet to see anything particularily unique.

I don't think Shodokan is at all emasculated.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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