A dojo in my area!!!

"Aikido is very lacking in quality control. Fraud hurts people and needs to be called for what it is."
Unfortunately, it is becoming worse. I know of one organization where the chief instructor recently promoted himself to 6th dan. Egos. It's good to do the research but also be cautious of the sources. Some appear to be very impressive until you look and realize that a lot of the stuff is made up.

Hi Jack,

I'm a student at the American Institute of Martial Arts. I've been there about three months now. So far, my experience there has been very positive. The class sizes are small, so you get a lot of personal attention. The environment is nurturing and comfortable. You learn by doing, always working out with a person of higher rank, often a black belt. Sensei Liedke is an excellent instructor, patient and gentle. He has been running the school and teaching there for 20+ years.

Rob Liberti has implied in his response that Sensei Bob Liedke is a fraud. That is a very serious accusation to make with out any proof. I don't think you should judge a man or his school based solely on the ramblings of a stranger you met on the Internet. I suspect that there are some ulterior motives involved in that accusation. Sounds like Mr. Liberti has a chip on his shoulder.

As for Sensei Liedke's credentials; I wouldn't even know how to begin to check out something like that. Perhaps you could start by asking Sensei Liedke about his training. He's very easy to talk to. When and what ranking was he awarded? By whom? Under what circumstances? Ask about his resume. See if you are satisfied with his response.

I wouldn't judge the school with out checking it out first. Observe a class or two. What are the students like? Are they learning? Are they enjoying the class? What kind of vibe do you get?

I've been to other Aikido schools. Some were very good. Some were not so good. American Inst. of Martial Arts is excellent, at east in my humble opinion.

The school emphasizes the practical application of Aikido for self defense. Not "traditional" perhaps, but I don't think this is a bad thing.

I hope you reconsider your decision to go somewhere else. You should at least give American Inst. of Martial Arts a visit and check the place out.

P.S. I was recently at a weekend Aikido seminar in Rhode Island. I don't remember seeing Mr. Liberti there. There were over 100 people there. I didn't get a chance to talk to all of them and find out what school they were from. I don't know how Mr. Liberti does it

Most dojos offer one to two weeks of free training before you enroll. I would encourage you to ask if this particular sensei extends any type of free trial offers. This way it can give you an idea from personal experience if you feel like this is a good enviroment for your training needs or not. Good luck.

Jack Robertson wrote: Hi everyone! I'm thinking about joining this dojo: http://www.ctaikido.com/ Does anyone know anything about the sensai of this dojo, Bob Liedke? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

Chris Porto wrote: As for Sensei Liedke's credentials; I wouldn't even know how to begin to check out something like that. Perhaps you could start by asking Sensei Liedke about his training. He's very easy to talk to. When and what ranking was he awarded? By whom? Under what circumstances? Ask about his resume. See if you are satisfied with his response. I wouldn't judge the school with out checking it out first. Observe a class or two. What are the students like? Are they learning? Are they enjoying the class? What kind of vibe do you get? I've been to other Aikido schools. Some were very good. Some were not so good. American Inst. of Martial Arts is excellent, at east in my humble opinion.

Well, if it's excellent then a couple things about improving the website.

His bio mentions a lot of things outside of aikido and the fact that he has published many articles in karate and kung fu mags, but it doesn't ever actually mention from whom he learned Aikido. Aikido being a relatively young art, this is highly unusual for some one so highly ranked not to have a well known background that is in some way directly traceable to Morihei Ueshiba Sensei. Any 6th dan around in the US is bound to be at least a student of a student of Ueshiba Sensei.

Lose the videos at the bottom of this page
http://www.ctaikido.com/samurai_history.htm

Liedke and his uke must have surely just been having a bad day. Maybe he just had a cold and felt a bit stiff and awkward and wasn't feeling well and things got a tad sloppy, it happens. Maybe his uke was just trying too hard for the cameras to make basic mistakes in wielding a sword. It must have been nerves because everytime he just dropped his sword even though Liedke's techniques never allowed for any ability to control the weapon in his techniques.

Those videos are ummm... interesting.

It's a simple thing really. When I go to seminars, I normally look at the sign up sheet and scan down the list of home dojos. Also, if someone stands out as really good or really bad it's common to ask someone you do know, "Who's that person and where do they train?".

Also, about spotting Mr, Liedke's students: I've worked with some of Mr. Liedke's former students (who trained with him for 10+ years) and I can recognize their "iriminage" a mile away. In all honesty, they have some skills. They do generally have good ability to take falls (not the way I would do it now, but they way I did it a few ranks ago myself. Ranks that were legitimately recognized by hombu dojo - that is.

And that is the topic at hand "rank fraud." I can produce 5 people who support my claims, and he will not be able to find 1 to support his white hakama.

Ted Tine sensei was Mr. Liedke's teacher at Hwangs. He is 82 years old, and still around. By all means, please go confirm what I have said by contacting him. Other aikidoka that were also around back in the day - and are still around now - who can confirm what I posted would be Donnald Haley, Tom Petchinshy, and later Walter Salazar who trained with Bob Liedke for many years. You can also ask John Yuglowski sensei about him as well. I'd be happy to help you contact any or all of these people. A long while ago, I personally went to visit him and asked him who promoted him to shodan and he did not answer the direct question.

Mr. Porto, you only have trained for 3 months and aikido is already very important to you. Think about how much more important it must be to those of us who've put in many years - and how we must feel about some guy who didn't pay his dues and who is currupting what we love in our own area. I invite you to come visit my class at Yale. If you are not a student there, I'll have to sign you in so feel free to email me and we can set it up. If you give me enough notice, I can probably have two or three of the people I mentioned in that class and you can hear it directly from them. (You can visit me anywhere I teach, it is just that Yale would be closest for you.)

Also, I'll be happy to visit any other aikido sensei in the area with you and we can train together there and ask that teacher's opinion. I admit I don't know Mike Sidebottom sensei but he's relatively new to the area.

If you don't want to do any of that, please continue to visit as many dojos as possible and watch videos of Saotome sensei, Sugano sensei, Waite sensei, Saito sensei, Osawa sensei, Tessier sensei or just about any teacher who can name the people that taught and promoted them.

For example: My current teacher for the past 14 years is William Gleason sensei. His primary teachers were Yamaguchi sensei and Takada sensei. He has been under Saotome sensei for the last 20+ years. In May, 2003, I tested for sandan at Shobu Aikido of Boston under Saotome sensei and Gleason sensei. My uke's were Gary Small sensei, Satoru Sato sensei, and Justin Picott. There is a video of that test. I can produce similar statements for my shodan and nidan tests as well.

Ask Mr. Liedke do do that for ANY of his ranks and judge what happens for yourself.

To the aikiweb folks - so how do you check rank out with Hombu dojo?

Rob: I had to check rank several years ago on someone making claims that did not make sense-he kept having excuses why he could not provide me with a certificate. Peter G. helped me with the contact name-my computer crashed or I'd give it to you. You could also contact the aikikai directly or your home organization headquarters. I always verify ranks. When the aikikai did not list him and then the USAF did not have him listed it was an instructor' fraud-he claimed he was tested and then the guy ran with the money. The story kept changing. After we kicked him out, he came back later and claimed he had been doing speed and it was the drugs-he finally admitted he was not a shodan. I guess he figured in a smaller town he could get away with it.

John Riggs wrote: Rob: I had to check rank several years ago on someone making claims that did not make sense-he kept having excuses why he could not provide me with a certificate. Peter G. helped me with the contact name-my computer crashed or I'd give it to you. You could also contact the aikikai directly or your home organization headquarters. I always verify ranks. When the aikikai did not list him and then the USAF did not have him listed it was an instructor' fraud-he claimed he was tested and then the guy ran with the money. The story kept changing. After we kicked him out, he came back later and claimed he had been doing speed and it was the drugs-he finally admitted he was not a shodan. I guess he figured in a smaller town he could get away with it.

Probably Mr. Tani, he's head of the international section at Aikikai Hombu. I've always had good response times to email sent to hombu, but I send them in Japanese. I have heard (although I have no evidence) that English inquiries sometimes take a little bit longer (which makes sense, I suppose).

Best,

Chris

My Japanese isn't fluent but I'm thinking "Robert Liedke wa nan dan desu ka?" might do...

What's Mr. Tani's email address?

Thanks!

That's the name. Thanks Chris. I don't know the e-mail.

wow, this thread has gone way of topic, and I wonder if the op is even studying aikido anymore, but when I read Mr. Liberti's response, I had to add what I know, that Mr. Liberti also trained with Juba Nour sensei and Yahe Solomon sensei at connecticut aikikai, which Mike sidebottom sensei now runs...so it's all interconnected, isnt it? And as for the illustrious Mr. Leidke, there are people who would question Mr. Liberti's pedigree, so what of it, if someone walks into that dojo and likes it, go for it. Isnt that the pot calling the kettle black?
Aikido in this country is a mish mosh, and each person does what he or she likes. More traditional, go to Sidebottom sensei. More self defense, Mr. Liberti. etc...It's all good, isnt it?

It's one thing to have a verifiable pedigree from a legitimate source. Rob's can be verified with the World Headquarter's Aikikai. Check out some of the earlier posts regarding the lineages in question. Basically, it appears as though the lineage follows the sokeship stuff that goes on in the arts. It goes something like this: someone gets a dan rank (generally not higher than 3rd) and feels they have surpassed their teachers. They then get in contact with a soke organization and make up their own style which they are of course the grandmaster. Then they get a bunch of fancy ranks and titles often from other arts they make up. Professor, doctor, soke, etc. Anybody can do this and there are groups out there that sell this stuff without ever checking a credential. So you end up with someone having a slew of 6-10th degree ranks in arts they made up. They then breed other lineages. The only one they are kidding or duping is the public who gets impressed witht the ranks without knowing anything about the arts. Its sad really.

Hi Tom.

To be fair, I said my "current teacher" not my "only teacher ever." I liked training under Juba sensei but my main teacher has really been Gleason sensei. I pretty much exclusively do Gleason sensei's aikido. Feel free to call Shobu Aikido of Boston and talk to anyone or email Gleason sensei - his email is on www.shobu.org.

I did train with Yahe sensei as my ppartner under Juba sensei when Yahe sensei first came back from Japan for like a summer. However, I can only remember visiting Connecticut Aikikai 3 times after Juba sensei left - so I don't think I should count my experience under Yahe sensei in my "pedigree". I honestly don't know Mike Sidebottom sensei but I wouldn't mind meeting him. So how interconnected is it really?

Tom, please check out the panther productions video tapes if nothing else. Unfortunately it is certainly NOT all good.

Rob (and to anyone who can name their teachers all the way back to Osensei, you are welcome to call me Rob as opposed to Mr. Liberti.)

Rob Liberti wrote: My Japanese isn't fluent but I'm thinking "Robert Liedke wa nan dan desu ka?" might do... What's Mr. Tani's email address? Thanks!

You can contact aikido@aikikai.or.jp and they'll forward it on to the appropriate person.

Best,

Chris

Tom Kaluzynski wrote: Aikido in this country is a mish mosh, and each person does what he or she likes. More traditional, go to Sidebottom sensei. More self defense, Mr. Liberti. etc...It's all good, isnt it?

Inevitably, the response to a lineage questions evokes this kind of response - the person in question is skilled, good at teaching, kind to small animals, etc.. The problem is that a lineage question has nothing to do with skill, either at fighting or at teaching. If someone is claiming rank that they do not have then they are lying - and whether or not they they're good at what they do or not has nothing to do with that. How smart you are has nothing to do with whether or not you actually graduated from XXX University.

Now, some people claim that it doesn't matter whether or not a claimed lineage is real or not, that the skills are all that matters. If so, that's good for them, but if the skills are all that matters, then why the lie?

Best,

Chris

Tom Kaluzynski wrote: Aikido in this country is a mish mosh, and each person does what he or she likes. More traditional, go to Sidebottom sensei. More self defense, Mr. Liberti. etc...It's all good, isnt it?

Hey, I have some training in neuroscience. Had a little surgical experience on animals. Good enough I figure to practice on my own and figure out how to do brain surgery. So what if I am not an M.D. or have a license. I figure I know enough and am smart enough to form my own medical school that recognizes me as fully certified to do my own unique form of brain surgery. It will be better than others because I am going to even change what little I learned from those schools with all those established credentials. Then I am going to market videos of my new method of brain surgery so others who have never had any training in brain surgery will be convinced to do it my way.

After all, licensed M.D.s borrow techniques from each other and train with each other, so neurosurgery is all a mish mosh.

If you get a brain tumor or your child has spina bifida, hey come see me!

It's all good, isnt it?

Good points Chris.

I think this all gets down to ego or money. Being a legend in one's own mind. Or, wanting the lofty titles to edge out the competition. I agree on the skill issue. This has shown up under other threads where such people are adamantly defended by their sychophants as being skilled beyond belief. When it is pointed out that it's not the skill issue its the lie issue they still don't get it. I believe it was in one thread someone pointed out that their country had laws (England I believe) where you could be held accountable for that behavior. Here you can do what ever you want with the only recourse being threads on martial arts sites that trample on your pedigree.

So let see. I can get a bunch of like minded martial artists/aikidoka and set up my own soke organization. I've studied some shotokan, taekwando, tai chi and stick fighting in the past (no real signficant rank in any of them but who cares). I like atemi-waza/kyusho jitsu (strikes and pressure points) so I could set up a separate art of my own and call it something atemi aikido or taikali aikido or whatever. Since I set it up I'm now the grandmaster. My bylaws of course state that the grandmaster of the style is automatically a 10th dan. I can then either set up my own soke organization and register the style with it or dial up one of the many others out there and get them to register it. I can set up a couple of other styles along the way and make myself 6th or 7th dan just to make my credentials look more legitimate. I can then can throw in a few other lofty titles like professor or doctor (that one's not fair since I earned one). Then I become Doctor, profession, soke grandmaster of my style. Wow-impressive. Actually, since I don't have a Ph.D. the doctor one should be awarded by one of the soke organizations that gives them out (wouldn't want anything legitimate here).

See the problem. That was so scary I set off my own b.s. detector and I have some legitimate credentials that are generally higher than some of the people doing this kind of stuff. It's dishonest, ego-centric, fraudulent, etc., etc. Everything any of my students earn after that would be bogus in terms of ranks. Again, this has nothing to do with my skill.

That's a good point about neuroscience, etc. --I was even going to bring this up in my post in that aikido IS NOT like neuroscience; it's more like an art ie visual or dance, where each person has his/her own view of what is "good" or "effective". Hence the disparity of views--obviously one man's aikikai=nirvana being another man's ki society=nirvana, entirely subjective.
I admit to being the devil's advocate in a sense-but my point was there is no standard such as passing the bar for law or your mcat score, because aikido is subjective. So although it may piss you off if a certain instructor isnt "adequately certified" to your standards and may, indeed be "certifiable" another person may adore this person's technique and think they are the most amazing teacher ever. That's the state of aikido in this country.

Tom Kaluzynski wrote: That's a good point about neuroscience, etc. --I was even going to bring this up in my post in that aikido IS NOT like neuroscience; it's more like an art ie visual or dance, where each person has his/her own view of what is "good" or "effective". Hence the disparity of views--obviously one man's aikikai=nirvana being another man's ki society=nirvana, entirely subjective. I admit to being the devil's advocate in a sense-but my point was there is no standard such as passing the bar for law or your mcat score, because aikido is subjective. So although it may piss you off if a certain instructor isnt "adequately certified" to your standards and may, indeed be "certifiable" another person may adore this person's technique and think they are the most amazing teacher ever. That's the state of aikido in this country.

It's not about whether or not they're adequately certified, it's about whether or not they're lying. I might be doing a great job at a company and yet still get fired for saying that I went to Harvard when I actually didn't - the problem isn't my work performance, the problem is my integrity.

Best,

Chris

Thanks guys.

Tom, I respect your aikido and still think of you fondly. If you're willing to train with a fraud like me, you are welcome to visit anytime - and I'll even invite you to teach.

Love, Rob
(or Mr. Liberti, depending on your Keito)

Tom Kaluzynski wrote: was even going to bring this up in my post in that aikido IS NOT like neuroscience; it's more like an art ie visual or dance, where each person has his/her own view of what is "good" or "effective". .

You missed the point entirely.

If we are talking about dance/art then obviously what is good is in the eye of the beholder. Neurosurgery (not neuroscience) is partly an art. It takes great technical skill. The precise trained movements can in themselves hold a great deal of visual beauty. Perform them without a patient and they can be appreciated purely for the aesthetics. Without a patient anyone can safely mimic them. A little training and a mimic can with continued practice produce something that many might find more pleasing than the movements of a trained neurosurgeon. However great harm might might happen if their good performance is done with a patient.

Aikido likewise is artistic but requires sober technical evaluation when it comes to self-defense. If you are dancing rock-on. If you market yourself as a self-defense expert in Aikido then there needs to be a rather ruthless honesty and personal integrity. (There should be a special place in aiki-hell if your self-promotion has your students believing you have self-defense expertise/skill/understanding that you don't actually have.) Such personal integrity would very likely extend to not misleading the public with made up rankings. Sure in a real self-defense situation, technical training is only part of the picture, but when the blind lead the blind and something gets passed off as mastery that isn't, it's the student that could suffer injury or death from not having that part in their favor just as the patient could suffer from having a mimic instead of a neurosurgeon.

If someone is willing to give a false impression to the public of their training background, then it's legitimate to question how honest their teaching is.

That's a separate issue from how fun their classes are or how well they teach what they teach or how the good the person or group judges what they do to be. As long as there is no patient, no harm is apparent.

whoa guys, I wasnt debating the morality of this type of situation, or if it's right or wrong. I was merely pointing out that it exists, and is here to stay. It's not going away. I mean unless we get the aikido special forces out or something, but then who is going to decide who is the real deal?. I agree with the idea that it isn't right to make up ranks, but it does exist. I guess what I was trying to say is there really are no clear guidelines, even ikkyo is different, and ukemi fuhgettaboutit. That is inescapable, as it is subjective, give me that point. I mean, there wouldn't be so many different styles and ways if this weren't the case. There are different schools of thought in medicine, but the basic premise is pretty uniform. ie mcat etc.
Mr. Liberti, I actually never did train with you. I know a few people who know you, that's where I got your info. I'm not even in connecticut any longer. But good luck with your school.

Oh and some more background on me I am in arizona at this time and am a theatre manager here.( also, what does "keito" mean, I've never heard that. ) That's why I have such affinity for the arts etc. as a self proclaimed artist, I see the correlation on so many levels. But yes, art is always in medicine/neuroscience as well. It's a way of looking at things. I guess I see the other side too much sometimes. again I am NOT condoning the "frauds" it;s just to some people, for example, Mr. Liberti's credentials wouldnt cut it, sorry. This is just what I've heard from the people I know, mind you. I;m not really into aikido politics etc.

Well Tom, luckily, you and anyone else are invited to check my credentials out for yourself. Several options including the proper email for World Headquarters is provided on this thread. Verify any way you like...

I admit that I'm bad with names, and my memory has been worse due to the sleep deprivation of having an almost 1 year old son (in 2 days!). I had you confused with an aikido guy named John who's last name reminded me a whole lot of yours. He and I trained together at Juba sensei's place a long time ago. When you said you knew I trained at that dojo and I saw your last name and I put 2 and what I thought was another 2 together and got 4. Regardless, it turns out that I don't know your aikido enough to say I respect it, so I take back the endorsement - but you and anyone else are still welcome to try my waza out anytime you are in the area.

The funny thing is that my waza is pretty strong now, and it would be way more ego gratifing to pretend that I came up with my current level of ability on my own. Like, I was in a field and suddenly a golden light came down and all of a sudden I could hold sandans in kokyu ho like an anchor and throw my best sempai in ikkyo. The problem is that would just be totally disrespectful to Gleason sensei's effort to teach me. This is the reason I don't think it would be fair to give teachers I trained with like 3 times credit for teaching me.

Keito is the word to describe lineage for martial arts as opposed to family lineage.

Thanks, Rob, for the explanation. I am sure your aikido is miles ahead of me. I truly hope you do well. Thanks again, for your kind explanation.