Why do some people hate Aikido?

Allen,
You are a kick!!!
- George

George,

Thanks!

Allen

So, is the system failing the individual, or is the individual failing him/her self?

I'd guess that it's a bit of both in these cases. Buyer beware; always. Even with the best of intentions from a teacher, people can't assume they're going to get everything they expect to receive, whether it's the ability to fight or anything else I can think of. There has to be some objective mechanism for measure.

Allen Beebe wrote: 10) I met my wife, became a Buddhist priest, met most of my best friends, got my first job, earned higher educational degrees, get to travel around the world, and have received a host of other cherished benefits all through Aikido . . . and I HATE Aikido! (For all of the above reasons and probably others too . . .) How sucky is that?

You know Allen...Denile is not a river in Egypt.

It must be really "sucky" to be you! LOL

William Hazen

William Hazen wrote: You know Allen...Denile is not a river in Egypt. It must be really "sucky" to be you! LOL William Hazen

You betcha!

BTW, I really like this quote:

"Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live in joy."
Joseph Campbell

As I was reading this thread my daughter, who was playing a board game called "Apples to Apples" asked me what "Apples to Apples" meant. As I began to explain the idiom, "Comparing Apples to Oranges", I realized this is what this thread is about; and this is why this and similar threads go on ad nauseam. To see how this idiom applies to this discussion check out this explanation from Wikipedia:

"Apples and oranges" refers to the idiom "comparing apples and oranges" or "apples to oranges", which is used to indicate that two items or groups of items have not been validly compared. The idiom evokes the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an "apple" is faulted for not being a good "orange." Conversely, where the comparison or analogy is valid, the idiom will usually take the form "comparing apples with apples".

Will it never end?

Lloyd Heggestad wrote: Will it never end?

Probably not, so the trick is to learn how to live with that. I find it helps to remember how many times I have had such discussions in the real world: Exactly none. And I'd rather practice Aikido than argue about it.

... hey, that's the most coherent I can be at 1:14 AM!

It may already have been said above, but my impression is that most of the outspoken disrespect for aikido comes from people who do not practice any martial art at all. That makes them very sure of which one is the best, and which one the worst.

For example, when I check the channels of those who write the most rude and dead-certain comments on my YouTube aikido videos, they never have any martial arts videos of their own.

People who actually practice have a much more nuanced and ambiguous view on it all.
I have been fortunate to meet many very prominent practitioners of other martial arts, and I found none of them hateful toward aikido. Quite the contrary.

Ricky Wood wrote: They are all jealous.

yeah!! there just jealous cause they dont get to wear a hakama!
oh wait, neither do i, er.... aah man!

I think pretty much everyone on here defending the nature and aspects of Aikido or the more violent form Aikijutsu, is time on target. My biggest beef is with the nay sayers out there who say Aikido does NOT work in real life. I strongly disagree. Perhaps this stems from fancy demos where nobody gets hurt. Or what little they know of the training in which you ensure your Uke does not get hurt. As a Nage, it is my job in the Dojo to ensure I don't cripple or life flight my Uke. In my indroduction, I pointed out that I have been a Soldier, and I work in a prison. I have seen and done many violent things. When ever I had to "spar" against someone, or be in the center of a Rendori, my Sensai took note of how rough and overly violent I was with other Deshi. As stated in my intro, he pulled me aside and told me we are all here to learn. And that this was not a battlefield or a prison. He realized this is how I was trained. Either do or die. He let me know that it was also my job to protect other students and to take great care to ensure they did not get hurt. This had a profound effect on me. In the Dojo, be kind and gentle. In the prison (and outside world), be as kind as gentle as can be. But when this does not work, by all means do what needs to be done. I have found that dealing with the most violent people (if thats what you want to call them) can be subdued with techiniques that nay sayers say don't work in real life. I think they fail to understand that training in a Dojo, and appliyng techiniques to the real deal, are two different things. Because Aikido tends to be more of a passive art, I think people get the wrong idea. And thus sparks the debate of why people "hate" or say Aikido does not work in real life.

Anthony Stebbins wrote: . I think they fail to understand that training in a Dojo, and appliyng techiniques to the real deal, are two different things.

I think this has hit the nail. Do I think Aikido can work? Absolutely! The problems people have with it are due to training method. i.e. there is a significant gap between the dojo application and the street application. Whereas other "live" arts still have a gap, but it is much smaller. What that gap means is, you will still get people who make Aikido effective, but alot is left down to the individual to be able to bridge that gap. I think that's why you tend to hear more "it's the person not the art" statements from co-operative arts like Aikido than you do from live arts like bjj. Because in a co-operative art it is absolutely true - take 20 blackbelts and you will get huge variation in what they can do in a given live situation. Whereas in a live art,10 bluebelts in BJJ you will have a much clearer idea what their capabilities are likely to be imo.

I don't think that is necessarily a good reason for "hating" aikido but I think it is a part of the phenomenum.

Here's a question for you: Why do you care what other people think?

Are you happy with your training and the benefits to your life?

I sure am. I understand the general philosophy of Aikido and what O'Sensei was trying to do after having read about his life. Part of being "At Peace" is to avoid all the background noise in life that doesn't pertain to your own well being. If someone is screaming at me that Aikido is useless, I can ignore that person and continue on with my day. I'm only going to take noitce when I see the first fist/foot/baseball bat come swinging at me.

Do what you do, ignore everyone else. Getting upset about what some random idiot thinks builds tension within, filtering out life's noise is the best thing Aikido has taught me to do. On occassion I tell people I train in martial arts, if they ask, I tell them Aikido, if they say they've never heard of it and as what it is, I hand them a business card (I am not a Sensei) and invite them to observe a class. I deflect disscussion while encouraging participation. Same thing I do on the mat 6x a week.

If people ask why I do it, I just tell them "It's a lot of fun."

Eric Worth wrote: if they say they've never heard of it and as what it is, I hand them a business card (I am not a Sensei) and invite them to observe a class.

While I know what I'm about to say isn't your intent it still may be what the other person is hearing from you.

To put it bluntly shunting a person off to the Sensei to be told anything about aikido smacks of a cult. You as a student need to be able to talk intelligently about aikido and answer some very basic questions. I've run into this in other things and it always sets off my warning signals.

A friend of mine was involved in the Landmark Forum and would rave about how it changed his life. When I asked him what kind of things they did or discussed I was told he wasn't able to talk about it and I would have to go to a meeting to fully appreciate it, and the first meeting was even free

The same thing happened when I stopped into the local Ninjitsu school. None of the students would answer any of my questions. They said I would need to talk to the Sensei. When I asked if the Sensei was there and if I could speak to him I was told that yes he was and no I couldn't. I would have to make an appointment for a free (again) one-on-one intial class/interview with the Sensei and that is when I would have any questions answererd.

Again, both cases set my warning buzzers off. And if I was a person unfamiliar with aikido and met a student who was unwilling/unable to even talk about it and instead pushed me off on some all powerful authority figure for answers to simple questions, I would think it was a cult and wouldn't pursue it.

That of course is strictly my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Bronson

There is a lot of interesting commentary in this thread. I'm glad I took the time to read through the entire thing.

I have to say, most of the people I've told about my starting Aikido have been nothing but positive about it. Several good friends of mine are active participants in the MMA community in Southern California, and not one of them said anything disparaging about Aikido. One did look at me with a confused look and ask why I chose Aikido, but after I explained my reasons, he was perfectly in-tune with what I was talking about.

I realized some time ago that I have never been afraid of being able to defend myself in a physical altercation - I've always participated in violent, full-contact sports (hockey/rugby/boxing/etc) - what I've always been afraid of is being able to control myself well enough in a physical altercation to not seriously injure or kill another human being. That's not bravado, but the fact is that it's much easier to accidentally/incidentally hurt someone using no martial technique at all than it is to safely disarm a situation without seriously injuring the aggressor.

Whether or not the techniques become effective for me any time in the near future isn't really my main concern...it's about getting to the mental state where I realize, when pressed in a stressful situation, that I have the choice to resolve conflicts without resorting to testosterone-fueled machismo and muscle.

I think the universal answer to that question is that people tend to hate what they don't understand. This is a well tested and far reaching concept. This is why we have religious wars, racisim, bigotry, and other things that don't compliment us as a species. Specifically in the martial arts, people tend to stick with what they have learned and put the potty mouth on everything else. I have had people tell me the Aikido doesn't work and when I press them, there are so many wrong ideas and misconcpetions, that I am not sure what they hate but it isn't Aikido.

My humble opinion
Scott.

Scott Kelley

"Happiness is not a reaction, it's a decision." -- J.S. Kelley

Aikido class information - www.aikidoofatlanta.com

To manage your martial arts organization please visit www.MartialManagement.net

Grant Wagar wrote: Why do people hate Aikido?

Is the correct answer, "Cuz some people are haters."?

Well, that's the thought that struck me. The question seems to presuppose the hating is about it's object. Maybe sometimes. Sometimes not.

DH

People hate martial arts for one reason only.

They do not understand it and feel threatened by it. It forces them to realize that what they are doing might not make them the 100% unstoppable killing machine they think they are.

Further more, It calls into question what they have been taught. Just like high school kids, you want everyone to be like you to justify your beliefs. If they won't go along, then there must be something wrong with you.

It's that simple.

I am very critical of many martial arts, aikido included. But I would never say I hate aikido. I would say I love the scientific method and I encourage it to be employed during training. I would also say I despise bullcrap, and I hear it spouted a lot (in many martial arts, my own included). I do my best to call it out when I see it, no matter judoka, bjjer, or aikidoka.

Ricky Wood wrote: They are all jealous.

Probably

I mingle a lot with BJJ and Judo practitioners. They say that it's more because Aikido somewhat falsely portrays martial effectiveness (in a demo probably)...one BJJ blackbelt just used three words (full of s--t) In contrast, their art (i train a bit myself) always try to be realistic in training.

I have scanned this thread, read a number of the postings critically and here are some replies from my point of view on a number of things that came along:

I do think it is a relevant question to ask what people like or dislike about aikido. Not for the sake of changing aikido to suit either opinion, but to see aikido reflected in the eyes of others. Reflection at any time is not a bad thing in my opinion.

To me it is important because the longer you practice the more partisan you become towards aikido and the more aiki-logic you seem to accept. With aiki-logic I mean things that are logical to nobody but aikidoka. You see aikidoka move on the mat and it is just silly to everybody but them. It doens't make sense, not only because people do not understand it, but because it is based on an intellectual construction (in analysing action and reaction) that at times is flawed.

I believe a part of the dislike is simply because aikido is different. It's just like the kid in the playground that stands out from the crowd. He is different and gets picked on. So what? It doesn't mean he has less worth or is less than anybody else. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that he is worth more or is better than anybody else. If he stands up in the crowd and sayshe is better (technically and/or philosophically superior) than everybody else because he is different, he will catch some flack, and understandably so. This seems to happen with some aikidoka.

As for thinking about superiority let alone arguing about it, to me within the context of aikido, is completely pointless and useless. As far as I know nothing in or about aikido is about superiority. People seeking or claiming superiority are treading road which will certainly not lead to anything near what they hope for. And the question that pops into mind is why do they need it?

Then a bit off-topic, but it came into the topic,(though it is some time ago) and at the risk of this seeming to be too much of a PR-message: Kicking, or Keri-waza is relevant to Aikido. As some may know I have put in some research into the incorporation of kicks in aikido and that I have written a book about the subject offering a clear technical and theoretical context and a number of Keri-waza techniques. The arguments against kicks are always the same. Every technical and/or philosophical argument not to include kicks has an equally valid (or more valid) opposite argument to include it. Actually IMHO most arguments boil down to: 'We haven't been taught, so we don't do it.' The dislike for Keri-waza by people with no or limited knowledge and/or experience with them actually mirrors the dislike of Aikido by people who have limited knowledge and/or experience with Aikido.

Back to the topic and more recent postings: Often you can hear people say: "Aikido doesn't work." To me it is a strange thing to say: I often retort and ask them, when doesn't it work, where, against what, what is the context of it not working. And in what way does something not work, what is the result you are judging its merits on? It may make more martial sense to shoot an attacker in the head: but does that constitute something that "works?" Tell that to the judge.
More often than not, as in this thread, the thread, we look at UFC. It seems that the UFC arena is the place where universal efficiency is decided nowadays. If you don't make it there, your art is useless and not a real martial art. And BJJ comes ou the winner because it rules in that arena. An arena controlled by more rules actually than known in aikido.

I am reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin who is a Dutch Film maker and who made a docuemntary about Dutch special forces in Afghanistan. We talked about aikido, self defense, and the context of self-defence in Afghanistan. The conclusion was that the application of self-defnense principles used in Aikido would not work in Afghanistan. At best you would get shot, the worst you would have your head caught off. Conversely however, the principles of self-defense effective in Afghanistan would not work in our society. (The principle there is that if somebody looks like he is a threat you should shoot him and kill his family before he does the same to you. Force is what works there). So anyway, our conclusion was that if self-defense is about protecting yourself and those around you against harm in any way, what actually "works" totally and profoundly depends on the context.

The only good thing I can see in a discussion about Aikido's (lack of) effeciency, which always comes back in the Aikido world is that at least most Aikidoka have enough sense to look at their art and what they are doing critically. I just hope that we manage to look at it from a broader perspective than what we need to beat somebody.

To me the only way for Aikido is to move forward. Some people might say all Aikido can ever be was shown in what O Sensei did. I choose to believe that what O sensei did was a starting point for Aikido and that it can grow, technically and philosophically. I think that a certain amount of self-doubt, humility(humbleness?) and just plain knowing you don't know anything is a good thing. Uncertainty leads to growth. Knowing it all (or think you do) leads to stagnation and invites dislike.

Mark

PS: please excuse the long posting

Read my blog on A.J.
Will go part of the way to explain it......

https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3104

Of course most would disagree but then again I think of aikido as an addition as other martial arts....... no one martial art has all the answers ...... take what is useful and discard the rest.....
Tony

Mark Stokmans wrote: I have scanned this thread, read a number of the postings critically and here are some replies from my point of view on a number of things that came along: I do think it is a relevant question to ask what people like or dislike about aikido. Not for the sake of changing aikido to suit either opinion, but to see aikido reflected in the eyes of others. Reflection at any time is not a bad thing in my opinion. To me it is important because the longer you practice the more partisan you become towards aikido and the more aiki-logic you seem to accept. With aiki-logic I mean things that are logical to nobody but aikidoka. You see aikidoka move on the mat and it is just silly to everybody but them. It doens't make sense, not only because people do not understand it, but because it is based on an intellectual construction (in analysing action and reaction) that at times is flawed. I believe a part of the dislike is simply because aikido is different. It's just like the kid in the playground that stands out from the crowd. He is different and gets picked on. So what? It doesn't mean he has less worth or is less than anybody else. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that he is worth more or is better than anybody else. If he stands up in the crowd and sayshe is better (technically and/or philosophically superior) than everybody else because he is different, he will catch some flack, and understandably so. This seems to happen with some aikidoka. As for thinking about superiority let alone arguing about it, to me within the context of aikido, is completely pointless and useless. As far as I know nothing in or about aikido is about superiority. People seeking or claiming superiority are treading road which will certainly not lead to anything near what they hope for. And the question that pops into mind is why do they need it? Then a bit off-topic, but it came into the topic,(though it is some time ago) and at the risk of this seeming to be too much of a PR-message: Kicking, or Keri-waza is relevant to Aikido. As some may know I have put in some research into the incorporation of kicks in aikido and that I have written a book about the subject offering a clear technical and theoretical context and a number of Keri-waza techniques. The arguments against kicks are always the same. Every technical and/or philosophical argument not to include kicks has an equally valid (or more valid) opposite argument to include it. Actually IMHO most arguments boil down to: 'We haven't been taught, so we don't do it.' The dislike for Keri-waza by people with no or limited knowledge and/or experience with them actually mirrors the dislike of Aikido by people who have limited knowledge and/or experience with Aikido. Back to the topic and more recent postings: Often you can hear people say: "Aikido doesn't work." To me it is a strange thing to say: I often retort and ask them, when doesn't it work, where, against what, what is the context of it not working. And in what way does something not work, what is the result you are judging its merits on? It may make more martial sense to shoot an attacker in the head: but does that constitute something that "works?" Tell that to the judge. More often than not, as in this thread, the thread, we look at UFC. It seems that the UFC arena is the place where universal efficiency is decided nowadays. If you don't make it there, your art is useless and not a real martial art. And BJJ comes ou the winner because it rules in that arena. An arena controlled by more rules actually than known in aikido. I am reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin who is a Dutch Film maker and who made a docuemntary about Dutch special forces in Afghanistan. We talked about aikido, self defense, and the context of self-defence in Afghanistan. The conclusion was that the application of self-defnense principles used in Aikido would not work in Afghanistan. At best you would get shot, the worst you would have your head caught off. Conversely however, the principles of self-defense effective in Afghanistan would not work in our society. (The principle there is that if somebody looks like he is a threat you should shoot him and kill his family before he does the same to you. Force is what works there). So anyway, our conclusion was that if self-defense is about protecting yourself and those around you against harm in any way, what actually "works" totally and profoundly depends on the context. The only good thing I can see in a discussion about Aikido's (lack of) effeciency, which always comes back in the Aikido world is that at least most Aikidoka have enough sense to look at their art and what they are doing critically. I just hope that we manage to look at it from a broader perspective than what we need to beat somebody. To me the only way for Aikido is to move forward. Some people might say all Aikido can ever be was shown in what O Sensei did. I choose to believe that what O sensei did was a starting point for Aikido and that it can grow, technically and philosophically. I think that a certain amount of self-doubt, humility(humbleness?) and just plain knowing you don't know anything is a good thing. Uncertainty leads to growth. Knowing it all (or think you do) leads to stagnation and invites dislike. Mark PS: please excuse the long posting

Just an FYI, bjj is not the winner of MMA fights. Good MMA fighters have a lot more then bjj. If MMA has taught anyone anything it should be that you have to have a strong focus in both striking, takedowns, and ground work to be a complete fighter. Nothing else.

Don, thanks for correcting me. Let's nuance that by saying that grappling skills which are a focus of BJJ training are indespensible in UFC fights and quite often if not most of the time, matches are decided on the floor.

What interests me however is that, from all the things I said in my posting, you would decide to react only to the BJJ part. Perhaps the rest does not interest you, you've heard it all before, it is such drivle you are deciding to spare me or perhaps you just agree with everything but the BJJ remark ;-).

I am curious as to why only that sparked enough interest to react upon.

@ Tony: thanks for the link. It made for an interesting read. There are parts I certainly agree with. The danger though in my opinion is that catering too much towards aikido must be effective will do as much damage as catering too much towards aikido must be all about harmony, love and peace. Once again I think the truth (if it exists) lies somewhere in between, a hard place to find it. Life (and aikido) would be easier if the turth were simpler. It would be a lot more boring too.

Mark Stokmans wrote: Don, thanks for correcting me. Let's nuance that by saying that grappling skills which are a focus of BJJ training are indespensible in UFC fights and quite often if not most of the time, matches are decided on the floor. What interests me however is that, from all the things I said in my posting, you would decide to react only to the BJJ part. Perhaps the rest does not interest you, you've heard it all before, it is such drivle you are deciding to spare me or perhaps you just agree with everything but the BJJ remark ;-). I am curious as to why only that sparked enough interest to react upon. @ Tony: thanks for the link. It made for an interesting read. There are parts I certainly agree with. The danger though in my opinion is that catering too much towards aikido must be effective will do as much damage as catering too much towards aikido must be all about harmony, love and peace. Once again I think the truth (if it exists) lies somewhere in between, a hard place to find it. Life (and aikido) would be easier if the turth were simpler. It would be a lot more boring too.

I just use search to find posts with UFC, bjj, or mma in then comment

In all seriousness, I really didn't have any other issues with your post. I'm just not much of a me too kind of guy.

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: Read my blog on A.J. Will go part of the way to explain it...... https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3104 Of course most would disagree but then again I think of aikido as an addition as other martial arts....... no one martial art has all the answers ...... take what is useful and discard the rest..... Tony

Exactly!