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Old 04-06-2004, 10:59 AM   #76
Magma
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Mark -

Such hero worship is what colors your perception of what you see on film (of Morihei Ueshiba). I look at that and see a man first, so my perception is different than you who sees... "O-SENSEI!!" ...with his magically delicious aikido technique.

Tell me this, if you're still around: Were I to stand - *just* stand - in front of O-Sensei, would he be able to throw me without touching me?

What if I closed my eyes?

Both questions deserve to be answered, I think.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:01 PM   #77
L. Camejo
 
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Lol, reading this thread has been positively hilarious. I think trolls have a purpose in the world - comic relief.

As far as no touch throws go, I have done them a few times with the "right" Ukes. Following Peter's take on the thing, I really believe it to be a matter of knowing (maybe even mentally projecting/otherwise controlling) how the Uke should react and by timing the technique in such a way to utilise Uke's conditioned reflex action in a way that helps you to complete the technique.

Personally I tend to hide my techniques from Uke (i.e. not let em know how I am going to respond until it's too late to resist) by using body language (mugamae), posture, metsuke etc. In these cases Uke does not even know what technique is happening by the time he is off balanced and on the way to the floor. In these cases, no touch throws don't happen for me mostly, as Uke gets no time to react.

However, if I take the same approach but change my timing to allow Uke a split second to see what is coming and react to it, I can get off the throw without having to touch him. The problem is in getting Uke to consistently react in a way that helps the technique instead of hinder it. I remember hearing stories from my instructor about competitors who would step into a shomen ate and take the hit instead of risking arching backward and losing balance to give Toshu a Yoko (partial point).

In one situation I was able to pull off Aigamae Ate (Irimi nage) during full resistance randori. Even as it was happening I realised that what caused Uke to hit the deck was the surprise of seeing the hand so close to his face after attacking, he instinctively pulled his head back, unbalancing himself and as I kept moving through he fell (Ushiro ukemi) just before my hand could touch him. Another person may have decided to duck under my hand, turn out or try something else that would feel natural to them, but not necessarily help my technique.

So I guess the key to getting this regularly is being able to be in the place to give Uke only one option to respond, the one that you want - just like in normal touch techniques.

The fear of Uke getting hit though is important at some level here I think. Ever try a no touch throw with a Bokken? Tends to work much easier .

Just my thoughts.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 04-06-2004 at 12:06 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:52 PM   #78
Doka
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Mark "IF I SHOUT LOUD ENOUGH I MUST BE RIGHT" Balogh - Bye!

I wonder if we are all now on his ignore list?

By the way, if you don't touch Uke you don't throw Uke, they just fall over!



- (the other) Mark
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:03 PM   #79
cbrf4zr2
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Quote:
Goetz Taubert wrote:
So again, just to add another aspect of no touch throw, barely adressed in this thread:

Click on the chapter Taiki and wait for the picture to load up.

You ain't seen nothing yet ....
I have some oceanfront property in Kansas for sale. PM me.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:46 PM   #80
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Larry Murray wrote:
Let's talk about outside the aikido world...
The best no-touch throw I ever saw was during a pro-baseball game. The pitcher grazed the batter's head, the batter charged the pitcher and threw a big haymaker punch. The pitcher ducked and the batter went sprawling. It brought a tear to my eye it was so nice

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:16 PM   #81
kironin
 
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Ki Symbol

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Uke was cooperative - plain and simple.

Fake is not the word I would use - preconditioned is. Yes even with Ueshiba M. or Tohei K.

A simple question - could the same technique be done against a martial artist outside of a selected group - could it be done to me?
I haven't really followed this thread because I have been very busy, but I have had the experience of doing no-touch throws on people not pre-conditioned and on people from other other martail arts. It works. That's all I know. I am not sure what the hoopla is about here.

Now there are some caveats. The first was, I wasn't trying to do a no-touch throw, it just happened because my lead was bang on at that moment and they followed. I am sure if I had been trying to do it, it would have failed in such a non-cooperative situation.

Perhaps not as stringent as those rarer cases but still useful as a challenge are when I do it when it feels right with a student who doesn't know it's coming (only if I really trust their ukemi). They are expecting contact.

The second caveat is that in regular training, where you do the no touch throw over and over again. Yes, I agree with Peter, Uke is being cooperative just like any other kata practice. The point is to work on the timing and connection so that in a real free-for-all your technical training on leading will allow the possibility of a no-touch throw to occur. You are training yourself to lead someone's mind through the visual sense rather than the kinesthetic sense. Just like any other technique in randori, it's likely to fail if you TRY to do it or ANTICIPATE doing it rather than simply be doing what is appropriate and it occurs because of the interaction between nage and uke.

I am very clear with students about what exactly is going on. That like anything we do, there is a continuum. Initially, nothing you do will be no-touch without some form of cooperation. As you get better, occasionally you get it just right, but still within the confines of cooperative practice. Eventually, in cooperative practice you have it down most of the time. Only then in free situations will start to be a possible outcome. It's never gonna be a guaranteed outcome. You can only raise the odds through training and always be prepared to follow through when it doesn't happen.

best,

Craig

ps.

Close your eyes and I guarantee it won't be no touch. ;-) though that can be like uke just standing there and neither grabbing nor striking.
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Old 04-06-2004, 03:50 PM   #82
Goetz Taubert
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@ Edward Frederick

Nice proposal! I'll give you a black painted pair of glasses for your oceanside property.

So you can put them on quickly beeing confronted with pictures, you may not like. Hope you'll feel better soon.
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Old 04-06-2004, 04:30 PM   #83
willy_lee
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Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
The second caveat is that in regular training, where you do the no touch throw over and over again. Yes, I agree with Peter, Uke is being cooperative just like any other kata practice. The point is to work on the timing and connection so that in a real free-for-all your technical training on leading will allow the possibility of a no-touch throw to occur.
I like very much of what you are saying, but I wonder: is there any good in training no-touch throws in regular (kata) training then? Wouldn't it be better to train the touching throw, and explain (later) that this can manifest itself without actual contact under quite specific circumstances? You can still work on timing, connection, and leading, but students won't be tempted to try no-touch throws when they can't.

Just throwing that out there
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I remember hearing stories from my instructor about competitors who would step into a shomen ate and take the hit instead of risking arching backward and losing balance to give Toshu a Yoko (partial point).
And if people will do this to avoid a point in a contest, they may do this in a real fight too. Lots of situations where you'd rather take a punch in the face, especially if you can slip it enough so it doesn't hit flush, than fall down onto the ground, where you have lost mobility, initiative, face, are vulnerable to boot parties, etc. Unless nage has a knife. That changes lots of things.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:44 PM   #84
Chris Birke
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"Wouldn't it be better to train the touching throw, and explain (later) that this can manifest itself without actual contact under quite specific circumstances?"

Hmm... that seems pretty logical.

"And if people will do this to avoid a point in a contest, they may do this in a real fight too. Lots of situations where you'd rather take a punch in the face, especially if you can slip it enough so it doesn't hit flush..."

A strike to the jaw, neck, eyes, groin is too much, but I'd cover that and take one or two of almost anything else if it meant I was getting close enough for neck or body control. I've shot on people who hurt their hand punching my the top of my head. (sprawl first, THEN strike!)

Lots of strikes (often taught as "devistating") are actually more "nearly useless" against someone who is pissed off or trained.

The best example of this is the rear elbow strike as a defense to the bear hug.

I had to bite myself not to laugh when I watched a teacher set this up then wiggle in an attempt try to make it look deadly and convincing. The point of the elbow made no contact with anything. No space was created. It was more of a rear tricep strike... "This is absolutely why you never want to get this close to an Aikidoist!" *sigh*
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:46 PM   #85
kironin
 
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Quote:
Willy Lee (willy_lee) wrote:
I like very much of what you are saying, but I wonder: is there any good in training no-touch throws in regular (kata) training then? Wouldn't it be better to train the touching throw, and explain (later) that this can manifest itself without actual contact under quite specific circumstances? You can still work on timing, connection, and leading, but students won't be tempted to try no-touch throws when they can't.

Just throwing that out there

=wl
Well, maybe it's not politically correct in some corners but I think no-touch throws are by and large a waste of time for beginners to practice in general. It's really for upper kyu levels and dan levels to begin glimmer what is possible. At that point kata training should be taking on more subtle nuances of interaction and students are already very familiar with "touch" throws. If anything you are trying top get them to start to really appreciate how little force is necessary if rhythm and connection are good.

There really is too much to teach already to less experienced students without trying to get them to grok no-touch throws. They may see it happen and sometimes as I may add it in to demonstrate what's possible given the principles they are learning and what is a natural extension of what they are learning.

Craig
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:00 PM   #86
willy_lee
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Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
Well, maybe it's not politically correct in some corners but I think no-touch throws are by and large a waste of time for beginners to practice in general.
I like this very much! Especially from someone who teaches Ki Aikido
Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
I've shot on people who hurt their hand punching my the top of my head.
I've heard people advocate head-butting into punches. If you're getting hit anyway, might as well try to break his hand for it.

Boxers are taught to keep a relaxed fist until just before impact. If you force the impact before a boxer expects it, you may well crunch some knuckles. And your forehead is one of the thickest bits of bone in your body.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:00 PM   #87
Doka
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One thing that is definitely of benifit for beginers to practice is no touch avoidance. Moving off the line of attack without palming it!

It is often the hardest lesson my students have found to learn - to move!

As for the no touch "causing Uke to fall" - well that is all about timing and position. If the attacker is trained as a striker (which most Aikidoka are not!), then this is virtually imposible, as a trained striker (eg. Kung Fu, not football ) will attack on balance. The throwing EVERYTHING in to it attacker will be easy, as he throws himself at you, you are not there, he falls, but you haven't thrown him (stuck record, I know ).

It can work, but why risk it? Palm the attack and maintain control. I believe control to be a vital part of Aikido, on the part of Uke (not to hurt their Sh'te/Tori/Nage ) and on the part of Sh'te/Tori/Nage to have control over their Uke and themselves (so as to not their Uke).

Peace
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:26 PM   #88
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
One thing that is definitely of benifit for beginers to practice is no touch avoidance. Moving off the line of attack without palming it!

It is often the hardest lesson my students have found to learn - to move!
Oh yes. Lots and lots of taisabaki drills for us.

I also agree with the difficulty of dealing with a trained striker. In fact unbalancing a grabber by not being where he expects is a cake walk when compared to someone who understands how and when to deliver a punch or kick. Of course the opposite side is that someone who trains long and hard at anything is not usually the type to go chasing after little old me. A wild puch is just like a grab in this respect.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-06-2004, 07:49 PM   #89
Chris Birke
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That's why mirco crocop is a scarey, scarey man.
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