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Old 03-03-2015, 08:32 AM   #51
RonRagusa
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
... if we observe the form, with time we can understand the function, and maybe we can infer the intention.
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote:
It is my experience by now that this simply does not work. No way. If you are not explicetly taught what to do and how to become able to do "it", you will never ever find "it". You may repeat the forms over and over, for your whole life. You won't get "it". On the other hand, if a teacher reveals "it" to you, you will produce first results within minutes. Literally.
My direct experience has been otherwise. I was shown the forms, taught the principles that underlie the forms and told to practice with the goal being to embody the principles within the forms. I was never explicitly taught how to manifest the principles via the form; it's something I had to discover for myself. That said, experience based learning isn't for everyone. Some students are unable to rise above the automaton like rote repetition of what they have seen in order to unify the action with the principles.

The problem with your "all or nothing" approach is that it leaves no room for diversity of learning styles. I learn primarily from experiencing the the process and making adjustments on the fly. When you assert that "If you are not explicetly taught what to do and how to become able to do "it", you will never ever find "it"." you are making a generalization based, I suspect, on what you have been told and your individual experience, which you then scale up and apply to the Aikido community as a whole.

Note: Can you please drop the use of "it" and use a proper name for whatever you are referring to?

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted training that the mysteries of the Art of Peace are brought to life." - Morihei Ueshiba

Ron

Last edited by RonRagusa : 03-03-2015 at 08:36 AM.

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Old 03-03-2015, 08:41 AM   #52
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Note: Can you please drop the use of "it" and use a proper name for whatever you are referring to?
Yes. Enough with the "you don't have the secret decoder ring" nonsense.
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:14 AM   #53
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Re: The relevance of origin.

I'll bite.

For me, I think we are not talking about a "secret decoder ring"; we are talking about competency and incompetency to transmit a specific education. If someone says they have the goods but either won't show it or can't teach it, I am suspicious. I happen to believe most of the framed dissemination of aiki instruction, be it secret teaching or over-cooperative uke, is suspect. I tend to interpret "won't" as "can't." The only difference is the honesty of those we work with to fess up they don't know. If somebody really has the goods and refuses to transmit that information through a gendai art, she is a jerk.

The origin of aikido is important to me because first and foremost, I think there is something incorrect about the current system and I am choosing to look at the information that preceded the decisions that originated the current system. If I were grading math homework, I would call it, "checking the math." Second, my access to good instruction is limited, so I have chosen to follow in the education of people I respect to understand how they arrived to the conclusions they arrived at and where that directs their attention and their training. I believe this is the spirit of the "make aikido yours," comments. Not that we are doing different things, but that we should be arriving at similar conclusions and that education becomes a resource for you to draw upon in your creative expression.

When we do not arrive at similar conclusions and instead run into a significant conflict that leaves us with the impossibility that we may not be correctly interpreting the training process. And since it cannot be that I am wrong, the only logical conclusion is that someone else is wrong... Except maybe they're not wrong. An education process allows us to retrace our path and find out where we mis-stepped so we can get back on the path, all without anyone telling us we're wrong. Or, we're right and the education gives us a little better insight to explain why we are right. Knowing the path you tread is valuable because it will show you where you've been, where you are and where you will go.

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Old 03-03-2015, 11:49 AM   #54
phitruong
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yes. Enough with the "you don't have the secret decoder ring" nonsense.
what? you don't have the secret decoder ring? you know, the thing looks kinda green that plugs into the base of the lamp. when it comes on, it has a very sweet, sexy voice that said "you are an idiot! please deposit $5 into the coin slot for the next prediction which will more likely be "you are still an idiot"" those of us who worked with "it" have the decoder rings; otherwise, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves and we would have to content with the regular aikido.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:02 PM   #55
dps
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what? you don't have the secret decoder ring? you know, the thing looks kinda green that plugs into the base of the lamp. when it comes on, it has a very sweet, sexy voice that said "you are an idiot! please deposit $5 into the coin slot for the next prediction which will more likely be "you are still an idiot"" those of us who worked with "it" have the decoder rings; otherwise, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves and we would have to content with the regular aikido.
I have the secret decoder app.

dps
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:56 PM   #56
Cliff Judge
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Note: Can you please drop the use of "it" and use a proper name for whatever you are referring to?
How about "This Stuff"
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:18 PM   #57
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
If you are not explicetly taught what to do and how to become able to do "it", you will never ever find "it". You may repeat the forms over and over, for your whole life. You won't get "it".
On the other hand, if a teacher reveals "it" to you, you will produce first results within minutes. Literally.
Is it correct then to interpret "it" as an internal approach to doing waza? I sometimes use the phrase "whatever it was O Sensei was doing," but I mean a lot more in addition to "internally" driven movement, since I believe he was doing lots of things, but was generally going after something arguably more important, and far more accessible (reconciliation waza). The whole of the "Big Tent" and all that.

I had another thought about the OP and in an effort to consolidate my basic thoughts:
Things have a habit of changing over time, for better and for worse, depending on the situation. In studying the history/origin (although, which origin? Since each one has its own origin story to continue with backward through time) we can see how things have changed. One piece of learning affects another. Practicing mae otoshi and ikkyo, as one example, lends to finding commonality of essence within the differences of form.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-03-2015 at 03:27 PM.

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Old 03-03-2015, 03:38 PM   #58
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Practicing mae otoshi and ikkyo, as one example, lends to finding commonality of essence within the differences of form.
...er...whatever the Tomiki Ryu equivalent to ikkyo would be.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:54 PM   #59
lbb
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
How about "This Stuff"
You know...smileys are all well and good,a nd I'm not saying this is true of you, or Carsten, or anyone specifically, but when people insist on speaking in vague terms, it's often an attempt to obfuscate. And when there's an attempt to obfuscate, it's often to hide the fact that you ain't got nothin'. It's particularly effective when you insist that those who don't see what you see are blind or stupid or ignorant, and that only the most discerning and clued in will see "it". It's a common tactic of frauds, and so I think that if you're not a fraud, you really should have every possible motive to avoid conducting yourself in this way. I don't understand why this kind of behavior is still so prevalent here.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:39 PM   #60
kewms
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You know...smileys are all well and good,a nd I'm not saying this is true of you, or Carsten, or anyone specifically, but when people insist on speaking in vague terms, it's often an attempt to obfuscate. And when there's an attempt to obfuscate, it's often to hide the fact that you ain't got nothin'. It's particularly effective when you insist that those who don't see what you see are blind or stupid or ignorant, and that only the most discerning and clued in will see "it". It's a common tactic of frauds, and so I think that if you're not a fraud, you really should have every possible motive to avoid conducting yourself in this way. I don't understand why this kind of behavior is still so prevalent here.
I think there have been endless discussions in this very forum about "it," and if nothing else those discussions have shown that internal power, aiki, and related phenomena are not easily summarized in a sentence, or even a paragraph. And so, if one wishes to have a conversation without getting bogged down in endless rehashing of definitions, it is necessary to use some sort of shorthand.

But then, since you've been around at least as long as I have, and have participated in at least some of those discussions, you probably know this as well as I do. So what is *your* purpose in accusing other people of bad faith?

Katherine
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:47 PM   #61
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
... when people insist on speaking in vague terms, it's often an attempt to obfuscate.
To step away from questions of motive ... this recurring problem has been a plague for ... lo, these past 2,500 years, no less:

Quote:
Kong Fuzi 孔夫子 (Confucius) wrote:
"A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve.
If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things.
If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success
.
When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish.
When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded.
When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot.
Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately.
What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect."

Analects, Book XIII, Chapter 3, verses 4-7, "The Rectification of Names" (tr. -Legge)
Let us try to call things by their right names, so that affairs be carried to success... and the people know how to move hand and foot...

If we cannot find or agree on the name, then we must start at a more basic level where the names are not in question -- and only then can we work upward to resolve the conflict at the level where the War of Names arises.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:52 PM   #62
lbb
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But then, since you've been around at least as long as I have, and have participated in at least some of those discussions, you probably know this as well as I do. So what is *your* purpose in accusing other people of bad faith?
Read for content, Katherine. I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I said that because frauds often use mumbo-jumbo and obfustication as their tools, if you're on the up and up, it's in your best interest to avoid these. And since you've been around that long, Katherine, you know quite well that more than a few people in these discussions have played the "you just don't get it" card, over and over and over again. And I understand Erick's point, that clarity without common ground is difficult. But take it seriously, don't just blow it off.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:29 PM   #63
nikyu62
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Brian Sutton wrote: View Post
Their seems to be some debate but also genuine interest in this thread I started. May I recommend a book titled ;The Voice of Knowledge by Don Miguel Ruiz. Not an Aikido book, but then again, as we see from the above posts, this concept can be applied to anything.
Ruiz is an entertaining author, but the so called "historical " context he says he got his knowledge from is fraudulent…..he is not a Toltec anything. For more info see the Native American Frauds and Plastic Shamans website.Is the fruit of the poison tree still edible?
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:19 PM   #64
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Steven Shimanek wrote: View Post
Ruiz is an entertaining author, but the so called "historical " context he says he got his knowledge from is fraudulent…..he is not a Toltec anything. For more info see the Native American Frauds and Plastic Shamans website.Is the fruit of the poison tree still edible?
Yes. They are called "cashews" ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-03-2015, 10:06 PM   #65
kewms
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Read for content, Katherine. I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I said that because frauds often use mumbo-jumbo and obfustication as their tools, if you're on the up and up, it's in your best interest to avoid these. And since you've been around that long, Katherine, you know quite well that more than a few people in these discussions have played the "you just don't get it" card, over and over and over again. And I understand Erick's point, that clarity without common ground is difficult. But take it seriously, don't just blow it off.
I don't see obfuscation in service of fraud in this thread, hence my comment.

Katherine
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Old 03-04-2015, 02:06 AM   #66
nikyu62
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Yes. They are called "cashews" ...
Then he must be officially nuts
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Old 03-04-2015, 03:53 AM   #67
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Different people have different ideas of what 'it' is. The IHTBF paradigm...
I do not agree. The last few weeks we (me and my students) have done some extensive research in what George Ledyard was saying about connection, kuzushi etc in seminars about "internal power".
Now, mind you, I have never met him (live in the Netherlands) nor any of his students. Still, we managed to find, at least something, of "it" by studying his video and combine that with our own training/knowledge.
My lineage is Nobuyoshu Tamura, Alain Peyrache. Both teach (or taught in case of the late Tamura) in very different ways than George.
You assess the information you receive be it from your teacher (spoken, felt), other students, video, books.
That is why lineage and understanding the Japanese culture (at least to some extent) is important. You really need to understand the context in which the information was created, if you understand that.

BTW thanx George :-)

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:08 AM   #68
lbb
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't see obfuscation in service of fraud in this thread, hence my comment.
Then let me try once again to explain.

Obfuscation, mumbo-jumbo, "you have to buy it to get it", all these are characteristic tools of frauds.

When someone who is not a fraud uses any of these devices, for whatever reason -- or even just gives the appearance of doing so -- they risk coming across as a fraud.

Therefore, if you don't want to be perceived as a fraud, it's your job to strive for clarity and transparency, to avoid mumbo-jumbo, secret handshakes, "only members of the club get it", and other such devices.

Is that sufficiently clear now?
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:27 AM   #69
phitruong
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Therefore, if you don't want to be perceived as a fraud, it's your job to strive for clarity and transparency, to avoid mumbo-jumbo, secret handshakes, "only members of the club get it", and other such devices.
well, there goes the ki thing which is just some sort of eastern mythical mumbo-jumbo. might as well throw that out, which would leave us just ai and do. which would be just aido, the way of love, or do the ai which is much more straight forward position (pun intended), which would be just fine with most folks, except for those folks who are into all the grey shades. <normally the grinning face should be here>

i tell ya, easterners can really come up with all sort of mumbo-jumbo then make us wear pajamas to practice them. they should have follow us western folks who just went straight into reality shows.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:49 AM   #70
allowedcloud
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Then let me try once again to explain.

Obfuscation, mumbo-jumbo, "you have to buy it to get it", all these are characteristic tools of frauds.

When someone who is not a fraud uses any of these devices, for whatever reason -- or even just gives the appearance of doing so -- they risk coming across as a fraud.

Therefore, if you don't want to be perceived as a fraud, it's your job to strive for clarity and transparency, to avoid mumbo-jumbo, secret handshakes, "only members of the club get it", and other such devices.

Is that sufficiently clear now?
They are, of course, talking about IP/Aiki. But you knew that.

I think the reason for the vagueness here is because this thread is in the General forum, where open discussions of IP/Aiki can get you reprimanded or banned. If you have concerns over the merits of such training you might be better off starting a new thread in the Internal Power forum.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:55 AM   #71
kewms
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Then let me try once again to explain.

Obfuscation, mumbo-jumbo, "you have to buy it to get it", all these are characteristic tools of frauds.

When someone who is not a fraud uses any of these devices, for whatever reason -- or even just gives the appearance of doing so -- they risk coming across as a fraud.

Therefore, if you don't want to be perceived as a fraud, it's your job to strive for clarity and transparency, to avoid mumbo-jumbo, secret handshakes, "only members of the club get it", and other such devices.

Is that sufficiently clear now?
It was clear the first time. And the second time.

My point was that I really don't feel like having a five page discussion of internal power (again) every time someone wants to say something like "some aspects of aikido need to be explicitly taught and often are not." And so I am perfectly okay with the use of shorthand, especially when, in the context of this forum, it is pretty clear exactly what is meant. That doesn't look like obfuscation to me, it looks like facilitating a conversation about other topics.

Katherine
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:17 AM   #72
Janet Rosen
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
My point was that I really don't feel like having a five page discussion of internal power (again) every time someone wants to say something like "some aspects of aikido need to be explicitly taught and often are not." And so I am perfectly okay with the use of shorthand, especially when, in the context of this forum, it is pretty clear exactly what is meant. That doesn't look like obfuscation to me, it looks like facilitating a conversation about other topics.

Katherine
Thank you. Yes. The topic is lineage. The minor digression did not seem off-topic until the semantics were seized upon and not let go. Sheesh. Let it go. Talk lineage.

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:52 AM   #73
Cliff Judge
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You know...smileys are all well and good,a nd I'm not saying this is true of you, or Carsten, or anyone specifically, but when people insist on speaking in vague terms, it's often an attempt to obfuscate. And when there's an attempt to obfuscate, it's often to hide the fact that you ain't got nothin'. It's particularly effective when you insist that those who don't see what you see are blind or stupid or ignorant, and that only the most discerning and clued in will see "it". It's a common tactic of frauds, and so I think that if you're not a fraud, you really should have every possible motive to avoid conducting yourself in this way. I don't understand why this kind of behavior is still so prevalent here.
Mary,

I think you should cut these folks some slack. The people using the vague language are describing something they are working on that they haven't really gotten ahold of yet. They are not representing themselves as experts, just as people who are seeking something they have caught only a few glimpses of. So I don't think there is any possible "fraud" dimension here.

This thread was bound to turn out this way - many people have chosen alternate Aikido paths based on a belief that the origin story of Aikido coming from the Aikikai Hombu is false. So to them the relevance of origin is going to key into the thing that makes them most passionate, be it internal power or Iwama style or what have you.
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Old 03-04-2015, 12:31 PM   #74
lbb
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Fair enough. Y'all are right. Please pardon my digression of the digression.
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Old 03-04-2015, 01:23 PM   #75
Brian Sutton
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Re: The relevance of origin.

Quote:
Steven Shimanek wrote: View Post
Ruiz is an entertaining author, but the so called "historical " context he says he got his knowledge from is fraudulent…..he is not a Toltec anything. For more info see the Native American Frauds and Plastic Shamans website.Is the fruit of the poison tree still edible?
Interesting, kind of brings me full circle to why I started this thread. Does the source of the information validate the information being transmitted. Carlos Castenada was a total fraud, but passed along some useful information. When I'm doing a hike, and I point my index fingers in a certain way , it can get a blast of energy that keeps me keeping on. While thats a trick I learned from Castenada, does it matter where he learned it as long as it works. The key words are "as long as it works". I. don't give a rats patooti if a person was group indoctrinated or self proclaimed, just as long as the information is useful and has utility. We live in a room full of mirrors, and are only anything by our own definitions .
I hate to say it, but after reading these posts, I see more limitations placed by knowledge, than applications. Sorry and good luck.
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