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Old 12-12-2013, 12:55 AM   #1
Dazaifoo
Dojo: Chikushino Rental Dojo
Location: Fukuoka
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Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

一点の気 (無) から陰陽の2つの気に分かれ, 陰陽の気は交流して万物を産み出すのである。
A spot of Ki (Nothing) is divided into two Kis - positive and negative. The dual Kis interact and give birth to all things in the universe.
Traditional Aikido vol 5 p 36

(口伝) 胴 (腰)の動きは両足にあり、頭の動きは両手にあり。
The rotation of the hips determines the movement of both feet. The movement of the head determines the movement of both hands. Ueshiba Morihei
Traditional Aikido, vol 1 p49

(口伝) 腰 (胴)の動きは両足にあり、頭の動きは両手にあり。
The hips determine the movement of both feet. The head determines the movement of both hands. Ueshiba Morihei
Traditional Aikido, vol 4 pp 118-119

Thoughts on the December Hawaii Internal Power Seminar and the future of Aikido

I've had a few days to recover from the Jet lag, coach seating (oy my shoulders and knees!), and the shock of returning to cold Japan from sunny warm Kailua. (Oh cooing doves, how I miss thee). I handed out the omiyage to friends and co-workers, caught up on a few meetings at work, getting back in the groove of things. It's also taken me this long to begin to collect my thoughts on the experience and the working model of IP and Aiki as taught at the seminar. Now a little personal background. For about, ohh just now 23 years or so I have been training in Aikido. For 19 of those years I have been an Iwama style guy. During that time I've devoted quite a large chunk of my life to the art, at one point I quit my job to become an uchi deshi with a high ranking instructor. I've turned down opportunites for promotion at work in order to keep up my training schedule at the old dojo. I've taken ukemi from a bunch of the big boys. I was once violently assaulted on the street and successfully defended myself against my attacker using solely Aikido (kokyu ho of all things, guy never saw it coming). And once, yes, I did walk four miles uphill in the snow just to get to the dojo. Well, maybe it was three and a half miles, but you get the point. I'm kind of an Iwamaniac.

So, now to the nitty gritty. Given all that, what did I think of the seminar and this whole IP deal? Well... as I've explained, I've been training for 23 years or so. I'm 41 now. So, for more than half of my life I've been doing this art and for just under half I've been in Iwama style exclusively.

Honest opinion: I learned more about Aikido this past weekend than I have in all of my 23 years of practice. Being given access to this training model is simply transcendental. There is no other way to say it, this is Takemusu Aikido. And, it DOES NOT negate that which I already know, it does not negate the legacy of Saito Sensei and my years in the Iwama tradition, in fact it illuminates all of it in such a way as to show us how we should be training. This is the power we've been seeking for years but could never achieve, no matter how hard we pushed ourselves in training or how much sciatic nerve crushing ukemi we took. IP is everything we got into Aikido for in the first place, it can be supremely soft and just stunningly devastating in the same moment. To put it another way, "This. F***ing. Rules!"

The Hawaii guys jokingly refer to their training location in the park as Area 51. An apt description, it seems to me. We've had the proverbial Aikido UFO up on blocks in a bunker for years. One Aikido lineage has the alien bodies in a tank at Hangar 18, another is making velcro and superconductors from the reverse engineered wreckage, and yet nobody knew what made that sucker fly. Well, IP is the reactor and now we can take that Aikido UFO out for a spin. Did I mention that I suck at metaphors?

So much of what we do in Aikido makes sense in light of traditional IP/Aiki training. So much so that it's hard to pick a starting point. Well, I suppose we could start by reading our own text books. Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido series contains a plethora of information that pertains directly to IP, and yet I've never once, ONCE, heard a teacher explain it in as cogent a manner as was done in the seminar, much less talk about its existence. There is far more in those books than just the pictures and yet, that's precisely how we've been using them. Step by step picture guides for gross physical movement. That's a start, but the words, the real content... what do they mean, how does that drive what we do? This is bloody important! We've got a lot of work to do.

And it's not just reading the English translation either. Some of that stuff, it seriously needs a second pass by a translator who knows not just the traditional IP terminology (Chris Li I'm looking at you! I mean surely we can do better than "Body Exercises and their Unlimited Ramifications" for 体術その無限の展開. It makes it sound like one's chances of getting into a good school are ruined unless you meet the fitness requirement.) That's just one thing, but here's the quote that got me started on my whole "What is this IP noise and how does it jibe with what we're told to do?" quest.

Here's the English translation of a kuden, an orally bequeathed teaching mind you from O'Sensei himself, from Vol 1 of Traditional Aikido, describing Kamae for taijutsu and bukiwaza. "The rotation of the hips determines the movement of both feet. The movement of the head determines the movement of both hands." Okay, I'll follow you there, the first part sounds exactly like what we've been told how to train. Except that the Japanese text doesn't say that. It doesn't say rotate at all, it says movement,動き . The movement of the hips determines the movement of the feet.

But wait, O'Sensei's kuden uses the word Dou, 胴, the trunk, upper body, or torso. The movement of the trunk determines the movement of the feet. Hips, koshi, 腰 , is in parenthesis next to dou. So it should be taken as a qualifier for dou. (The second appearance of this kuden in Vol 4 of the series has a different translation and somehow koshi takes precedence and dou is now in parenthesis. I guess the kuden are kind of flexible, zing!). Now Japanese regional anatomical terms can be frustratingly indeterminate. Ashi can mean foot, or calf, or leg, there are separate kanji for these with the same pronunciation, and the Japanese will use them in print to differentiate between foot and leg. Orally, one can grasp the meaning from context, tone, or nuance in the voice. So to impart the nuance in print, we see the use of dou and koshi in parenthesis to indicate what section of the body moves the legs.

What is koshi? Well, that depends. Most westerners say hips and pat their pelvis to indicate their hips, so move your hips. Check, got it, we do that. (Funny side note about hips here in Japan, the English word hip is used to mean the buttocks, which can lead to all sorts of funny situations where everyone becomes embarrassed and giggles uncontrollably. Can't open the door, put your hip into it, hilarity ensues. But I digress.) What about koshi as the Japanese commonly use it? I've gotten a lot of different answers from a lot of native Japanese. It could mean anything from the loins, to the pelvis, to the sacrum, to the waist. Just like ashi, things get fuzzy. So let's find the overlap. Dou, trunk of the body, what part of the trunk? The koshi. And where does that overlap, in English? How about the waist? The movement of the legs is determined by the waist. What possible driver could there be for power at the waist?... And what of the head determining the movement of the hands? Why, it's almost as if there would have to be, oh I don't know, something attached to the head that could determine the movement of the hands? What could that be?... Sorry to be a tease but you'll have to take a seminar to find out.

The clincher for me, that one moment that really made me go, "Yeah this is it!" was an answer to a nagging little question (actually kind of a BIG question) about Aikido training and efficacy, in just about every style or group I've trained with, Iwama included, that has always bugged the hell out of me. The age old newbie question in response to a technique against a grab. "Why not just let go?" 

My learned response/answer over the years has always been, say it with me now, "Because you're giving a serious attack." I have held on so many, many times over the years as uke, well past the point where my hand would naturally open or when I'm in such a contorted position that holding on is ridiculous given that I could just let go and punch my partner. I've thought about this conundrum while holding on to Shihan mind you, (I could just let go right now but that'd be wrong) and I've even seen Shihan change out uke for ones who don't let go during techniques. Check out Youtube, it's all over the place.

The answer to "Why not just let go?" after the IP/Aiki seminar. "Well, I couldn't." All my grabs became attraction points, Yin and Yang (the 2 kis from the headliner quote) were made manifest and that's all she wrote. My hands were glued to the instructor and I could not, for the life of me, get them off of him. And I tried. Never have I had that happen. Just, stuck to nage and then tossed like a pie in the oven. Now, go back and look at those photos, look at the waza O'Sensei is doing, look at the waza Saito is doing. Why can't the uke let go? What are we doing? What do we need to do?

Well, metaphorically speaking, we're going to have to smile wistfully at the old homestead and do some remodeling. Tear out the old wiring there in the wall, it's a fire hazard. And the old land line's gotta go, install some T3 cable up in there, that's gonna cost ya. Got some asbestos up on the second floor, so you won't be staying up there for, oh, a long while now. Plumbing's gonna have to get ripped out, new marble countertops, mahogany rails get refurbished, chandelier's a loss, strip out the lead paint, oh and you'll need an exorcist because the closet is haunted. Let's face it, with all of that and the roof work the place is going to be pretty darn unlivable for a while....BUT! But, after all of that. Your house is going to be in great shape. Comfortable to live in and everything you've always wanted. The envy of all your nosy neighbors, and a welcome place for friends, family, and strangers alike. Worthy of the name AIKIDO. It'll take time, effort, patience. Pain. Intent. And humility. But all of that will be worth it. It is well past time to stop living in the shell of what this once great mansion has become. We've got to take command and restore this Noble House back to its glory days. The traditional methods of IP and Aiki development now openly available for the asking, is the way to do this. This work has been around for a long, long time and finally it is within reach. For more than half my life I've been seeking this.

To quote the great water engineer William Mulholland. "There it is. Take it!"
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:39 AM   #2
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
I've had a few days to recover from the Jet lag, coach seating (oy my shoulders and knees!), and the shock of returning to cold Japan from sunny warm Kailua. (Oh cooing doves, how I miss thee). I handed out the omiyage to friends and co-workers, caught up on a few meetings at work, getting back in the groove of things. It's also taken me this long to begin to collect my thoughts on the experience and the working model of IP and Aiki as taught at the seminar. Now a little personal background. For about, ohh just now 23 years or so I have been training in Aikido. For 19 of those years I have been an Iwama style guy. During that time I've devoted quite a large chunk of my life to the art, at one point I quit my job to become an uchi deshi with a high ranking instructor. I've turned down opportunites for promotion at work in order to keep up my training schedule at the old dojo. I've taken ukemi from a bunch of the big boys. I was once violently assaulted on the street and successfully defended myself against my attacker using solely Aikido (kokyu ho of all things, guy never saw it coming). And once, yes, I did walk four miles uphill in the snow just to get to the dojo. Well, maybe it was three and a half miles, but you get the point. I'm kind of an Iwamaniac.

So, now to the nitty gritty. Given all that, what did I think of the seminar and this whole IP deal? Well... as I've explained, I've been training for 23 years or so. I'm 41 now. So, for more than half of my life I've been doing this art and for just under half I've been in Iwama style exclusively.

Honest opinion: I learned more about Aikido this past weekend than I have in all of my 23 years of practice. Being given access to this training model is simply transcendental. There is no other way to say it, this is Takemusu Aikido. And, it DOES NOT negate that which I already know, it does not negate the legacy of Saito Sensei and my years in the Iwama tradition, in fact it illuminates all of it in such a way as to show us how we should be training. This is the power we've been seeking for years but could never achieve, no matter how hard we pushed ourselves in training or how much sciatic nerve crushing ukemi we took. IP is everything we got into Aikido for in the first place, it can be supremely soft and just stunningly devastating in the same moment. To put it another way, "This. F***ing. Rules!"
To open this up into a broader topic for discussion that is a bit more removed from the personalities/events involved and engender more comments... I would say that particular snippet of your musings I find very significant, and I would like to dissect it a bit.

So the question is, if the content of IP/aiki work is so distinct from what your aikido training focused upon, then what things, more specifically, within your aikido training had you been spending most of your time on and why do you feel they did not impart to you what this material did, in a weekend, no less?

So, more or less, as a theme: what can you say about aikido, as it is, that is not built upon nor expedient for the instilling of IP/aiki that you saw?

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 12-12-2013 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:53 AM   #3
Dazaifoo
Dojo: Chikushino Rental Dojo
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 31
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
So the question is, if the content of IP/aiki work is so distinct from what your aikido training focused upon, then what things, more specifically, within your aikido training had you been spending most of your time on and why do you feel they did not impart to you what this material did, in a weekend, no less?

So, more or less, as a theme: what can you say about aikido, as it is, that is not built upon nor expedient for the instilling of IP/aiki that you saw?
To answer the first part of the question, I practice, as many Iwama folks do, the triumvirate of taijutsu (always with the essential tai no henko/morote dori kokyu ho), ken suburi, and jo suburi. This part of our training is the Riai of our school, and it sometimes comes across almost as an article of faith, a nembutsu if you will. Through diligent practice of these three essentials you will in time be able to release the state of Takemusu Aiki where the techniques just flow from you in an unlimited manner. After the seminar, I now feel that these three methods, as they are presently practiced, are insufficient for developing the type of dantien necessary for creating IP and manifesting Yin and Yang in the body. Without such a properly developed dantien, there can be no Aiki, the manifestation of Yin and Yang (or In and Yo if you prefer) from any point of contact. Additionally, there is no framework for the development of intent, which really is the heart of the matter and the true driver of all of these endeavors.

What is needed is a retrofit of these methods. People need to meet and feel teachers who can attain kuzushi on contact so that they learn how to manifest the techniques correctly and not just as rote mechanical levering, and then they need to practice the methods for being able to develop the kind of body that automatically destabilizes an opponent. Now, I know that there are certain individuals in the Iwama fold who are aware of IP and have incorporated it into their own training. I've seen enough dog eared copies of Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt Chi Kung and The Wandering Taoist lying around under beds and as bathroom reading material to know that they know. Why they don't feel like sharing, I don't really care to speculate on. But now that I think about it, some have shared. This past weekend I learned an exercise very similar to one I was shown by my instructor way back in 95 or 96. And his Aikido was truly awesome. Granted, I never practiced the exercise at home because I was under the impression that all I really needed to do was to practice my taijutsu, ken suburi, and jo suburi. Gee, don't I feel like a dumb butt.

Last edited by Dazaifoo : 12-12-2013 at 04:55 AM. Reason: Damn you autocorrect
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:30 AM   #4
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Glad you enjoyed it Scott!

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-12-2013, 10:55 AM   #5
Andy Kazama
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Thanks for the review! Always interested to see what those crazy Hawaiians are up to, and hard to beat training at Ala Moana! From a principle standpoint, it sounds like we had a very complimentary seminar down here in Atlanta with George Ledyard Sensei. Lots of work on structural stability, with a ton of focus on ukewaza, grabbing katatetori with aiki (and where to go from there). Certainly no end to the things that need improving! We've got another IP seminar coming up on the 24th of this month, so it will be interesting to compare and contrast the similarities and differences between the two seminars. If given the chance, I would highly recommend getting hands on Ledyard! This has certainly been a transformative year for our dojo as we've begun to integrate IP into our practice. We are very fortunate to have high-caliber instructors willing to teach and train with us.

Aikido South
(Facebook Page)
The basic fundamentals, refined to perfection, are your most advanced techniques.
-Bill Koll (1923-2003)
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:55 PM   #6
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
The answer to "Why not just let go?" after the IP/Aiki seminar. "Well, I couldn't." All my grabs became attraction points, Yin and Yang (the 2 kis from the headliner quote) were made manifest and that's all she wrote. My hands were glued to the instructor and I could not, for the life of me, get them off of him. And I tried. Never have I had that happen. Just, stuck to nage and then tossed like a pie in the oven. Now, go back and look at those photos, look at the waza O'Sensei is doing, look at the waza Saito is doing. Why can't the uke let go? What are we doing? What do we need to do?
you know that he used crazy glue right?

why would you go to a boring ip/aiki seminar in hawaii? look at all the beaches and the bodies and the beaches and bodies.... what you do? stuck around with a bunch of dudes, not even attractive ones. what wrong with you? incidentially, i stucked around with a bunch of nasty looking dudes this past weekend and wouldn't you know it, doing some aiki stuffs. i think we need some sort of international support group: Aiki Anonymous. and we need a 12 steps program. maybe even 13 steps.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:09 PM   #7
Zoe
Dojo: Currently relocating
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Hi Scott
It was so nice to meet you. Dan and I are still in Hawaii taking a much needed vacation; yoga and dancing.
We read your review this morning at breakfast. Dan was delighted that you understood his message regarding the material both contextually and physically.

Many people think he focuses on himself, when every seminar I have ever attended ( I met him at the first outside seminar he ever offered ) stresses that we have to stop looking at the teachers and focus on the material and who can best teach it for our benefit.
We hope to see you again.
Zoe

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
一点の気 (無) から陰陽の2つの気に分かれ, 陰陽の気は交流して万物を産み出すのである。
A spot of Ki (Nothing) is divided into two Kis - positive and negative. The dual Kis interact and give birth to all things in the universe.
Traditional Aikido vol 5 p 36

(口伝) 胴 (腰)の動きは両足にあり、頭の動きは両手にあり。
The rotation of the hips determines the movement of both feet. The movement of the head determines the movement of both hands. Ueshiba Morihei
Traditional Aikido, vol 1 p49

(口伝) 腰 (胴)の動きは両足にあり、頭の動きは両手にあり。
The hips determine the movement of both feet. The head determines the movement of both hands. Ueshiba Morihei
Traditional Aikido, vol 4 pp 118-119

Thoughts on the December Hawaii Internal Power Seminar and the future of Aikido

I've had a few days to recover from the Jet lag, coach seating (oy my shoulders and knees!), and the shock of returning to cold Japan from sunny warm Kailua. (Oh cooing doves, how I miss thee). I handed out the omiyage to friends and co-workers, caught up on a few meetings at work, getting back in the groove of things. It's also taken me this long to begin to collect my thoughts on the experience and the working model of IP and Aiki as taught at the seminar. Now a little personal background. For about, ohh just now 23 years or so I have been training in Aikido. For 19 of those years I have been an Iwama style guy. During that time I've devoted quite a large chunk of my life to the art, at one point I quit my job to become an uchi deshi with a high ranking instructor. I've turned down opportunites for promotion at work in order to keep up my training schedule at the old dojo. I've taken ukemi from a bunch of the big boys. I was once violently assaulted on the street and successfully defended myself against my attacker using solely Aikido (kokyu ho of all things, guy never saw it coming). And once, yes, I did walk four miles uphill in the snow just to get to the dojo. Well, maybe it was three and a half miles, but you get the point. I'm kind of an Iwamaniac.

So, now to the nitty gritty. Given all that, what did I think of the seminar and this whole IP deal? Well... as I've explained, I've been training for 23 years or so. I'm 41 now. So, for more than half of my life I've been doing this art and for just under half I've been in Iwama style exclusively.

Honest opinion: I learned more about Aikido this past weekend than I have in all of my 23 years of practice. Being given access to this training model is simply transcendental. There is no other way to say it, this is Takemusu Aikido. And, it DOES NOT negate that which I already know, it does not negate the legacy of Saito Sensei and my years in the Iwama tradition, in fact it illuminates all of it in such a way as to show us how we should be training. This is the power we've been seeking for years but could never achieve, no matter how hard we pushed ourselves in training or how much sciatic nerve crushing ukemi we took. IP is everything we got into Aikido for in the first place, it can be supremely soft and just stunningly devastating in the same moment. To put it another way, "This. F***ing. Rules!"

The Hawaii guys jokingly refer to their training location in the park as Area 51. An apt description, it seems to me. We've had the proverbial Aikido UFO up on blocks in a bunker for years. One Aikido lineage has the alien bodies in a tank at Hangar 18, another is making velcro and superconductors from the reverse engineered wreckage, and yet nobody knew what made that sucker fly. Well, IP is the reactor and now we can take that Aikido UFO out for a spin. Did I mention that I suck at metaphors?

So much of what we do in Aikido makes sense in light of traditional IP/Aiki training. So much so that it's hard to pick a starting point. Well, I suppose we could start by reading our own text books. Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido series contains a plethora of information that pertains directly to IP, and yet I've never once, ONCE, heard a teacher explain it in as cogent a manner as was done in the seminar, much less talk about its existence. There is far more in those books than just the pictures and yet, that's precisely how we've been using them. Step by step picture guides for gross physical movement. That's a start, but the words, the real content... what do they mean, how does that drive what we do? This is bloody important! We've got a lot of work to do.

And it's not just reading the English translation either. Some of that stuff, it seriously needs a second pass by a translator who knows not just the traditional IP terminology (Chris Li I'm looking at you! I mean surely we can do better than "Body Exercises and their Unlimited Ramifications" for 体術その無限の展開. It makes it sound like one's chances of getting into a good school are ruined unless you meet the fitness requirement.) That's just one thing, but here's the quote that got me started on my whole "What is this IP noise and how does it jibe with what we're told to do?" quest.

Here's the English translation of a kuden, an orally bequeathed teaching mind you from O'Sensei himself, from Vol 1 of Traditional Aikido, describing Kamae for taijutsu and bukiwaza. "The rotation of the hips determines the movement of both feet. The movement of the head determines the movement of both hands." Okay, I'll follow you there, the first part sounds exactly like what we've been told how to train. Except that the Japanese text doesn't say that. It doesn't say rotate at all, it says movement,動き . The movement of the hips determines the movement of the feet.

But wait, O'Sensei's kuden uses the word Dou, 胴, the trunk, upper body, or torso. The movement of the trunk determines the movement of the feet. Hips, koshi, 腰 , is in parenthesis next to dou. So it should be taken as a qualifier for dou. (The second appearance of this kuden in Vol 4 of the series has a different translation and somehow koshi takes precedence and dou is now in parenthesis. I guess the kuden are kind of flexible, zing!). Now Japanese regional anatomical terms can be frustratingly indeterminate. Ashi can mean foot, or calf, or leg, there are separate kanji for these with the same pronunciation, and the Japanese will use them in print to differentiate between foot and leg. Orally, one can grasp the meaning from context, tone, or nuance in the voice. So to impart the nuance in print, we see the use of dou and koshi in parenthesis to indicate what section of the body moves the legs.

What is koshi? Well, that depends. Most westerners say hips and pat their pelvis to indicate their hips, so move your hips. Check, got it, we do that. (Funny side note about hips here in Japan, the English word hip is used to mean the buttocks, which can lead to all sorts of funny situations where everyone becomes embarrassed and giggles uncontrollably. Can't open the door, put your hip into it, hilarity ensues. But I digress.) What about koshi as the Japanese commonly use it? I've gotten a lot of different answers from a lot of native Japanese. It could mean anything from the loins, to the pelvis, to the sacrum, to the waist. Just like ashi, things get fuzzy. So let's find the overlap. Dou, trunk of the body, what part of the trunk? The koshi. And where does that overlap, in English? How about the waist? The movement of the legs is determined by the waist. What possible driver could there be for power at the waist?... And what of the head determining the movement of the hands? Why, it's almost as if there would have to be, oh I don't know, something attached to the head that could determine the movement of the hands? What could that be?... Sorry to be a tease but you'll have to take a seminar to find out.

The clincher for me, that one moment that really made me go, "Yeah this is it!" was an answer to a nagging little question (actually kind of a BIG question) about Aikido training and efficacy, in just about every style or group I've trained with, Iwama included, that has always bugged the hell out of me. The age old newbie question in response to a technique against a grab. "Why not just let go?" 

My learned response/answer over the years has always been, say it with me now, "Because you're giving a serious attack." I have held on so many, many times over the years as uke, well past the point where my hand would naturally open or when I'm in such a contorted position that holding on is ridiculous given that I could just let go and punch my partner. I've thought about this conundrum while holding on to Shihan mind you, (I could just let go right now but that'd be wrong) and I've even seen Shihan change out uke for ones who don't let go during techniques. Check out Youtube, it's all over the place.

The answer to "Why not just let go?" after the IP/Aiki seminar. "Well, I couldn't." All my grabs became attraction points, Yin and Yang (the 2 kis from the headliner quote) were made manifest and that's all she wrote. My hands were glued to the instructor and I could not, for the life of me, get them off of him. And I tried. Never have I had that happen. Just, stuck to nage and then tossed like a pie in the oven. Now, go back and look at those photos, look at the waza O'Sensei is doing, look at the waza Saito is doing. Why can't the uke let go? What are we doing? What do we need to do?

Well, metaphorically speaking, we're going to have to smile wistfully at the old homestead and do some remodeling. Tear out the old wiring there in the wall, it's a fire hazard. And the old land line's gotta go, install some T3 cable up in there, that's gonna cost ya. Got some asbestos up on the second floor, so you won't be staying up there for, oh, a long while now. Plumbing's gonna have to get ripped out, new marble countertops, mahogany rails get refurbished, chandelier's a loss, strip out the lead paint, oh and you'll need an exorcist because the closet is haunted. Let's face it, with all of that and the roof work the place is going to be pretty darn unlivable for a while....BUT! But, after all of that. Your house is going to be in great shape. Comfortable to live in and everything you've always wanted. The envy of all your nosy neighbors, and a welcome place for friends, family, and strangers alike. Worthy of the name AIKIDO. It'll take time, effort, patience. Pain. Intent. And humility. But all of that will be worth it. It is well past time to stop living in the shell of what this once great mansion has become. We've got to take command and restore this Noble House back to its glory days. The traditional methods of IP and Aiki development now openly available for the asking, is the way to do this. This work has been around for a long, long time and finally it is within reach. For more than half my life I've been seeking this.

To quote the great water engineer William Mulholland. "There it is. Take it!"
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:01 PM   #8
hughrbeyer
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Nice post. Welcome to the dark side. Interesting perspective on it's relationship the Iwama training.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #9
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

I currently train Iwama style as well and I have been curious about the IP of Dan Harden and his method of 'giving one the tools to develop it' and if anything like it is found within the syllabus we train with... especially Tai no Henko, Morote Kokyu Nage and suwari waza Kokyu-ho.

Even IF you are aware and trying to be mindful of what you 'should' be getting out of it (IP stuff) well, from personal experience I feel that could be a lot of trial and error and the time could be better spent if you can find someone who can clearly and decisively show and explain it to you.

Your post has convinced me that even if the path of the Iwama training method has the potential (given the teacher knows and the student is capable and understands) the method itself is not efficient enough in establishing the Aiki/IP aspect that would drive all intended 'waza'.

I want for nothing more than to do what you have done. Go and learn, record (even if only on paper) everything I can from a seminar, build it into my training and sneak it into the method the dojo follows if necessary to develop Aiki in our Aikido.

I missed the July seminar and this December one as well. I cannot wait to see the 2014 schedule so I can take steps to ensure I will not miss the next even if it means flying all the way to the USA and following Dan around the west coast for a few of them. Are the seminars cheaper by the dozen?
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:28 PM   #10
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Stephen Nichol wrote: View Post
I missed the July seminar and this December one as well. I cannot wait to see the 2014 schedule so I can take steps to ensure I will not miss the next even if it means flying all the way to the USA and following Dan around the west coast for a few of them. Are the seminars cheaper by the dozen?
We're planning three in Hawaii for 2014. I talked to Dan about the schedule last weekend, but it's not quite set yet, we should have it done in a couple of weeks. Most likely something like March - July - December, or thereabouts.

Also, Bill Gleason will be out here in June, along the way to Australia - not quite the same as Dan, but he can give you some insight into what's going on.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:00 PM   #11
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
We're planning three in Hawaii for 2014. I talked to Dan about the schedule last weekend, but it's not quite set yet, we should have it done in a couple of weeks. Most likely something like March - July - December, or thereabouts.

Also, Bill Gleason will be out here in June, along the way to Australia - not quite the same as Dan, but he can give you some insight into what's going on.

Best,

Chris
An addition to my own post - we had five Australian Aikido instructors at the Oahu workshop this time, so Aussies should feel at home!

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-14-2013, 08:16 AM   #12
lrtomoleoni
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Dan Harden will be giving a seminar in Midwest USA on February 22-23. The dojo is located in Crystal Lake, IL. Please contact Dan at dojoseminars@gmail.com to register.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:43 AM   #13
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Lisa Tomoleoni wrote: View Post
Dan Harden will be giving a seminar in Midwest USA on February 22-23. The dojo is located in Crystal Lake, IL. Please contact Dan at dojoseminars@gmail.com to register.
Finally!

Don't miss this one - it took them almost two years to get it set up!

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:52 AM   #14
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Finally!

Don't miss this one - it took them almost two years to get it set up!

Best,

Chris
Good things are worth waiting for!
Lisa
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:50 AM   #15
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

What I gather was a frequently asked question on Aikiweb by many nay sayer's was-
"Does internal power work in a fight and does it apply to Aikido ?"

After seeing Dan with many types of Martial artists and fighters including a BJJ champ and several MMA'ers
Yes, internal power and aiki work in a fight.

As for Aikido, what I found even more fascinating than the fighting stuff was the comment by Sensei Meyer Goo (a Tohei student and himself a MMA guy) who felt Osensei's power when he came to Hawaii.
He told Dan in an open room that he never thought he would feel Osensei's type of power again. He told Dan what he was doing and what he was revealing about Osensei's actual teaching was very important and not to stop no matter what people did or said.That's the second Aikido teacher I know who has felt Osensei and Dan and said what he is doing is what Osensei was doing. I think that is significant, at least for me as an Aikido student.

Having trained with Japanese Aikido Shihan who were supposed to know and teach it to us, being able to both witness and feel these things being done and then actually being taught how to do it has truly been fascinating. My conclusion for Aikido is;
Yes Internal power and aiki apply to Aikido.

The attachment is Dan in Hawaii taking apart an applied Triangle choke after it was set in place by an Mixed Martial artist.
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Last edited by akiy : 12-19-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:17 AM   #16
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Zoe Botnaro wrote: View Post
What I gather was a frequently asked question on Aikiweb by many nay sayer's was-
"Does internal power work in a fight and does it apply to Aikido ?"

After seeing Dan with many types of Martial artists and fighters including a BJJ champ and several MMA'ers
Yes, internal power and aiki work in a fight.

As for Aikido, what I found even more fascinating than the fighting stuff was the comment by Sensei Meyer Goo (a Tohei student and himself a MMA guy) who felt Osensei's power when he came to Hawaii.
He told Dan in an open room that he never thought he would feel Osensei's type of power again. He told Dan what he was doing and what he was revealing about Osensei's actual teaching was very important and not to stop no matter what people did or said.That's the second Aikido teacher I know who has felt Osensei and Dan and said what he is doing is what Osensei was doing. I think that is significant, at least for me as an Aikido student.

Having trained with Japanese Aikido Shihan who were supposed to know and teach it to us, being able to both witness and feel these things being done and then actually being taught how to do it has truly been fascinating. My conclusion for Aikido is;
Yes Internal power and aiki apply to Aikido.

The attachment is Dan in Hawaii taking apart an applied Triangle choke after it was set in place by an Mixed Martial artist.
Yeah I was there for both Kona seminars and witnessed Meyer Goo make those statements. Meyer Goo is not pushover either. The man in his 90's with a recent hip replacement is still a very capable deadly martial artist. He took ukemi from O Sensei and was a friend to Koichi Tohei Sensei. So he knows what Aikido is supposed to feel like. 'Real Aikido'. He is very honest about his opinions about martial arts and was quite critical of the Aikikai about their decisions. The man has seen live combat and fought in real fights. Meyer Sensei is a warrior. His validation of Dan confirmed to all of us that this is the true path O Sensei was on.

This past seminar we got to see the IP /Aiki body in several different applications. The effectiveness of using IP in different fight situations was quite astounding. There were applications of BJJ cokes and holds by an experienced martial artist on Dan to which he easily countered and escaped. They were set strong holds with full resistance. It made no difference.

Last edited by akiy : 12-19-2013 at 11:55 AM.

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:38 PM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Zoe Botnaro wrote: View Post
After seeing Dan with many types of Martial artists and fighters including a BJJ champ and several MMA'ers
Yes, internal power and aiki work in a fight..
Does these people have names?

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Old 12-19-2013, 01:30 PM   #18
allowedcloud
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Does these people have names?
Just curious..if you had names, what would you do with them? Would you try to contact them?
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:35 PM   #19
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Does these people have names?
Well you know several of us here that attend Dan's seminars. Did you have a question about something in general?

There has been a name drop of Meyer Goo Sensei already. Is his validation not enough?

You know you could just take a leap of faith and attend a seminar to find out what its all about. That is if that door has not been closed for you already...

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:54 PM   #20
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
Just curious..if you had names, what would you do with them? Would you try to contact them?
Why not?

Quote:
jamie yugawa wrote:
Well you know several of us here that attend Dan's seminars. Did you have a question about something in general?
How was the above mentioned 'fight' done? Under which rules/parameters/contact level those MMA'ers and BJJ champ fougth with Mr. Harden?

Quote:
That is if that door has not been closed for you already...
Then I'll have to commit seppukku.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-19-2013 at 01:59 PM.

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Old 12-19-2013, 02:05 PM   #21
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Then I'll have to commit seppukku.
Best laugh of today. Thank you.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:13 PM   #22
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Why not?

How was the above mentioned 'fight' done? Under which rules/parameters/contact level those MMA'ers and BJJ champ fougth with Mr. Harden?

Then I'll have to commit seppukku.
I dont have the names of the guys at that particular seminar. I am guessing it wasn't an officially sanctioned fight. What they most likely did was roll around with the BJJ guy trying to get an upper hand or chokes to no avail. I am just guessing that was the situation. We had a guy in Kona that was a mixed martial artist put Dan in several full strength triangles and arm bars to which Dan got out easily. We all were quite stunned. Of course this would make more sense if you could touch hands with him. You would understand completely. I understand completely how a second or third hand story can sound misleading or blown out of proportion. Also we dont have Dan here to clarify or defend himself anymore on the forum.

As far as the seppuku goes ....dont do it I heard it hurts a lot.....

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:25 PM   #23
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
Also we dont have Dan here to clarify or defend himself anymore on the forum.
Asking for info about what happened... a fight? a roll? a demo? is not attacking Dan.

Quote:
As far as the seppuku goes ....dont do it I heard it hurts a lot.....
Thanks for the advice, I was already rolling the frisbee.

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Old 12-19-2013, 03:03 PM   #24
Dazaifoo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Keep in mind that there are those who don't wish to have their names put on the web without their foreknowledge. Think of it as merely a courtesy and not some attempt at bragging about an unverifiable event. Meyer Goo, a man of some skill an reputation mind you, has given a personal endorsement. That is not something to be quickly glanced over.

Looking at your website, howdoarmbar, the first video I see is Ki Master Meets Skeptics. I sense now a source for your initial skepticism. What the man in your video is doing is not IP, not even close.

Tell you what. Public offer, right now. It's Christmas, I'm feeling generous (X-mas bonuses do that to a fellow) and honestly I believe you need to feel this stuff for real. I see from your profile that you live in Spain, so most of Europe I assume will be in reach for you. I will pay for a seminar with Dan Harden for you. You cover all transportation and hoteling, food etc (I'm not feeling that generous!) and I will pay for you to feel what this guy has to offer. PM me and I'll see about Western Unioning you the funds. Deal?

Honest Injun, I'll be your pal on this. Let me do this for you.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:32 PM   #25
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Asking for info about what happened... a fight? a roll? a demo? is not attacking Dan.
Well there are people out there who train with Dan openly and have no problem with that. Others may have issues with political or personal conflicts in openly stating they are training in this methodology. The group they are affiliated with may disapprove. We all know of the disharmony just within the Aikido world.

As far as the BJJ champion is concerned, do you really think a professional athlete, who makes their living on winning fights would want to openly reveal their "Secret training method" to the world?? I think not.

You also have some willing to put money up to show you whats its all about. That's how compelling the training is. We all came to meet Dan with an open mind. What ever doubts there were previously were wiped out from the first contact. To quote William Gleason Sensei "This IS Aikido".

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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