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Old 10-21-2013, 01:26 PM   #126
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
A smart guy once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Maybe he wasn't so smart.
But the evidence is there, and it has been laid out in plain sight. The training, or at least a chance to experience, is publicly available, and probably has never been so available in all of the history of this stuff.
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:09 PM   #127
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 6 Directions

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
But the evidence is there, and it has been laid out in plain sight. The training, or at least a chance to experience, is publicly available, and probably has never been so available in all of the history of this stuff.
Evidence like, for instance, today's equivalent feats of solidly beating a top Sumo guy in front of a multitude? trashing the Kodokan? being hired by Nakano School to teach combatives to high level spec-ops operatives? Because that is what aiki guys of yore is said they did. What are the martial feats of contemporary aiki proponents?

If these kind of entertaining discussions are still running, its your (pl) fault. Stop making excuses and running in semantic circles and start taking Naga/UFC/Olympics/Dog Bros gatherings/etc. by storm.for these are today's minimum standards of martial skill for everybody.

If you (pl) succeed, in a couple of days no sane individual will say there's no clear evidence availabe about the value of IS/IP/Aiki/wateverthename in martial arts. If you fail, you at least will have well deserved respect for trying. That's all.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-21-2013 at 02:11 PM.

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Old 10-21-2013, 02:31 PM   #128
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Evidence like, for instance, today's equivalent feats of solidly beating a top Sumo guy in front of a multitude? trashing the Kodokan? being hired by Nakano School to teach combatives to high level spec-ops operatives? Because that is what aiki guys of yore is said they did.

What are the martial feats of contemporary aiki proponents?

If these kind of entertaining discussions are still running, its your (pl) fault. Stop making excuses and running in semantic circles and start taking Naga/UFC/Olympics/Dog Bros gatherings/etc. by storm.for these are today's minimum standards of martial skill for everybody.

If you (pl) succeed, in a couple of days no sane individual will say there's no clear evidence availabe about the value of IS/IP/Aiki/wateverthename in martial arts. If you fail, you at least will have well deserved respect for trying. That's all.
There are none. If you require that qualification, then you are not prepared to be in this thread.

If the topic of this conversation was somehow constructed to open for debate the argument of internal power within any competitive fight program, I would not be adverse to that discussion. My comment was more to illustrate the topic of this thread was the role of an exercise in developing internal power. Yet, the thread was hijacked to require proof that internal power exists.

If you don't believe internal power exists, then why would you contribute to a thread about an exercise to develop internal power? You're correct, trying to share this information on a forum seems to provide an avenue for posters to hijack the thread and trash the material. That is probably why most of the people doing this stuff have abandoned Aikiweb.

Moreso, how is there any ethos in a poster's comment about a topic to which they are adverse, about an exercise of which they have no knowledge? God bless the webernet, where everyone's an expert.

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Old 10-21-2013, 02:36 PM   #129
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Evidence like, for instance, today's equivalent feats of solidly beating a top Sumo guy in front of a multitude? trashing the Kodokan? being hired by Nakano School to teach combatives to high level spec-ops operatives? Because that is what aiki guys of yore is said they did. What are the martial feats of contemporary aiki proponents?

If these kind of entertaining discussions are still running, its your (pl) fault. Stop making excuses and running in semantic circles and start taking Naga/UFC/Olympics/Dog Bros gatherings/etc. by storm.for these are today's minimum standards of martial skill for everybody.

If you (pl) succeed, in a couple of days no sane individual will say there's no clear evidence availabe about the value of IS/IP/Aiki/wateverthename in martial arts. If you fail, you at least will have well deserved respect for trying. That's all.
Again, it seems that a higher bar is being set than is for conventional Aikido. Conventional Aikido folks say (mostly) that they're already able to do what Ueshiba did - which would include those feats, anybody calling for them to prove it in the UFC?

FWIW, I've got my share of stories (including some high level spec-ops stories), but it's better, IMO, to just go out and try for yourself.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-21-2013, 03:17 PM   #130
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Again, it seems that a higher bar is being set than is for conventional Aikido. Conventional Aikido folks say (mostly) that they're already able to do what Ueshiba did - which would include those feats, anybody calling for them to prove it in the UFC?
Well, there has been enough aikido folks who stepped on MMA rings for people to see their performance. Most of the doubts have been solved.

Quote:
FWIW, I've got my share of stories (including some high level spec-ops stories), but it's better, IMO, to just go out and try for yourself.
Volunteering for Spec-ops was the only available option to serve close to home for me back in the day (mandatory military service). I didn't tried back then, I'm not going to try now.

Nice guys anway, and good training partners.

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Old 10-21-2013, 03:31 PM   #131
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 6 Directions

Didn't saw your post

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
If you don't believe internal power exists, then why would you contribute to a thread about an exercise to develop internal power?
I've said cleary long time ago what I believe about the existence of internal power. I don't deny it exists.

And about your "then you are not prepared to be in this thread"... that's Jun bussiness, not yours.

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Old 10-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #132
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Didn't saw your post

I've said cleary long time ago what I believe about the existence of internal power. I don't deny it exists.

And about your "then you are not prepared to be in this thread"... that's Jun bussiness, not yours.
Demetrio-

I have read many of your posts, my comments are more rhetorical for the thread, not just you. I may have been murky in responding specifically to your comments or generically to the thread.

Yes, ultimately Jun is the moderator responsible for keeping threads on-base. Having moderated forums previously, I do not envy him. My comment is one of self-regulation and related to why we would participate in a thread, not if. In this thread alone, the level of competence is fairly clear from the content of the posts. I think the quality of the posts are evidence enough... mine included. For example, I have now spent more posts defending whether IP exists then describing the exercise... which is the topic of the thread.

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Old 10-21-2013, 07:10 PM   #133
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Re: 6 Directions

Your attempt to set the bar for what level is necessary to participate in the conversation is shameful. This is not the voices of experience section. Have you no common courtesy?
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:13 PM   #134
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: 6 Directions

Then let's pretend/agree that IP exists- just for the purpose of this discussion- and dig into "why".

Is it practical? How does it help me fight bad guys? And for the record- that is all I care about.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:04 PM   #135
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

Bill, for those of us who practice and have - to varying degrees - IP and aiki, we don't have to pretend or even to agree. The condition just... is. It's not mystical or magical in any way. Its source is purely the product of mental and physical work.

The martial value is very evident, once you've when you've had the opportunity to experience both the "external" (conventional) way of generating martial power and stability, and the "internal" approach, IP allows you to create continuous power for deflecting, striking, kicking, etc. without having to chamber or reposition your body. Chambering and repositioning creates gaps an opponent can exploit, so eliminating it from your power-making is a distinct advantage.

Also, the structure of the body necessary for IP is a unified one; movement is not sequential chain reactions but a constant state. The alignment and arcing of the joints allows a person to re-direct force from an opponent -- neutralizing the force of an attack, sending it to the ground, and using it - augmented with one's own generated power - to attack the opponent. Instead of being forced backward, or pushed over, or being forced to bend back at the waist, the body remains a force-directing arc to the ground and back into the opponent. This grants great stability without bracing or committing mass and center to any exploitable point. These are just a small part of the benefits of IP over conventional method.

You know, Shioda did all this, though he doesn't seem to have transmitted much of it to ensuing generations. I think Chris already recommended that you look into Kodo Horikawa, a disciple of Sokaku Takeda and head of Daito-ryu Kodokai. It's pretty much old news that Shioda spent some time with Horikawa when he couldn't grasp what Ueshiba was talking about or doing, but could very much feel the power of Ueshiba's aiki. Shioda went outside aikido, back to Daito-ryu, to get what he was lacking. Horikawa evidently provided the necessary "enlightenment."

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-21-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:21 PM   #136
Cliff Judge
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Then let's pretend/agree that IP exists- just for the purpose of this discussion- and dig into "why".

Is it practical? How does it help me fight bad guys? And for the record- that is all I care about.
If it exists, then when you had to put hands on the bad guys, you can obtain the results you need with less strain on your muscles and soft tissue.

Where I fit into the whole argument is that I don't think the training methods these folks use have any relation to what Ueshiba and Takeda or any of their students except Sagawa did. This may not matter to you given where you are coming from.

The drawback is the IP training methods apparently take a lot of time and effort, though it seems like it sucks you in when you start doing it.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:28 PM   #137
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

The drawback is the IP training methods apparently take a lot of time and effort, though it seems like it sucks you in when you start doing it.

Some people are "sucked in" simply because they are amazed at what these skills can do to enhance whatever martial art they're training in. When you find a better way of doing something, why would you not embrace it?

With a good teacher, an individual who already has grounding in an MA, and sticks to regular IP training, can gain some basic usable skills within a couple of years. If your livelihood depends on cage matches yesterday and tomorrow, that's probably not practical, but since MAs realistically are a hobby for most, unless you're a professional LEO, etc., it requires no greater time investment than that required to excel or to at least get proficient in any martial discipline.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:35 PM   #138
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Then let's pretend/agree that IP exists- just for the purpose of this discussion- and dig into "why".

Is it practical? How does it help me fight bad guys? And for the record- that is all I care about.
Does it help you fight bad guys? Absolutely.

Is it practical? I suppose that depends on your point of view - from my point of view no martial art, MMA, BJJ, or whatever is really practical for fighting bad guys because the return on investment is so bad in relation to the years of work that you put it in - that is, for most people fighting bad guys just doesn't come up that often.

On the other hand, I enjoy it for its own sake, and there are a whole host of health benefits (many unique to internal training, if you follow that stuff).

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-21-2013, 08:40 PM   #139
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Your attempt to set the bar for what level is necessary to participate in the conversation is shameful. This is not the voices of experience section. Have you no common courtesy?
Which post was discourteous? My point was, if we're discussing whether something is "real" or not and setting a high bar for that proof then everybody ought to be held to the same bar, that's all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-21-2013, 08:54 PM   #140
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Re: 6 Directions

I was speaking to Jon, but I can see how a number of folks might identify their own posts on this subject.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:03 PM   #141
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I was speaking to Jon, but I can see how a number of folks might identify their own posts on this subject.
Hmm, that's why I love the "quote" feature.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-21-2013, 09:28 PM   #142
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Re: 6 Directions

hey! which direction are you folks going? i am lost! my internal GPS isn't working right. which way to the nearest aiki party? 6 directions, 6 harmonies, 6 kind of liquor. it's the devil in the detail.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:15 PM   #143
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey! which direction are you folks going? i am lost! my internal GPS isn't working right. which way to the nearest aiki party? 6 directions, 6 harmonies, 6 kind of liquor. it's the devil in the detail.
Six kinds of liquor? Is that what was meant by "raise the bar"? I thought about raising a beer at the bar, or raising hell at the bar.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:27 AM   #144
Janet Rosen
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Re: 6 Directions

I thought it was beat me daddy EIGHT to the bar. Dang. Wrong again.

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Old 10-22-2013, 02:57 AM   #145
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
If the topic of this conversation was somehow constructed to open for debate the argument of internal power within any competitive fight program, I would not be adverse to that discussion. My comment was more to illustrate the topic of this thread was the role of an exercise in developing internal power. Yet, the thread was hijacked to require proof that internal power exists.

If you don't believe internal power exists, then why would you contribute to a thread about an exercise to develop internal power? You're correct, trying to share this information on a forum seems to provide an avenue for posters to hijack the thread and trash the material. That is probably why most of the people doing this stuff have abandoned Aikiweb.
Thread drift is par for the course here on AikiWeb. You've been around long enough to know that.

And not to play tit for tat, but I don't have to go back too many years to the hey day of "IP/IT/IS" on AikiWeb where it seemed like nearly every thread including some new members intros were "hijacked" by the "IP/IT/IS" crowd. It's just speculation, but that's probably why so many of the mainstay contributors from that time abandoned AikiWeb.

I think if you put stuff out there for discussion be prepared to encounter supporters and detractors. In the end those types of discussions have a way of bettering everyone who stays involved. Not so when everyone is just patting each other on the back with inside jokes and winky faces.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:02 AM   #146
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
If it exists, then when you had to put hands on the bad guys, you can obtain the results you need with less strain on your muscles and soft tissue.

Where I fit into the whole argument is that I don't think the training methods these folks use have any relation to what Ueshiba and Takeda or any of their students except Sagawa did. This may not matter to you given where you are coming from.

The drawback is the IP training methods apparently take a lot of time and effort, though it seems like it sucks you in when you start doing it.
This is of great concern to me as well.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:34 AM   #147
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Re: 6 Directions

Phi - long island iced tea + random additional liquor of your choice?

Michael/Cliff - aren't there (inevitably) lots of similarities between the various internal arts and their training methods? Certainly we seem to be doing some very similar movements in qigong/taiji to those in aikdio, especially the undo exercises we use as part of our warm ups, and the focus on breath is a strong common thread, which my wife also relates to her yoga practice. Then there's dantien/hara/seika tanden, grounding, etc. I'm not sure what methods DH uses but from what I've seen of ILC and Aunkai there appears to be a lot of commonality.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:34 AM   #148
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Re: 6 Directions

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
This is of great concern to me as well.
Training methods may vary, but at the core they must be working the same things because they are developing very specific qualities and skills. Thus, if more than one system is producing people with the same skills and same scope and complement of skills, the differences in developmental training are superficial ones.

What Takeda did for personal training is likely lost to the mists of time, secrecy and lack of recorded records; the presence of aiki in members of succeeding generations is proof that it was successfully transmitted by Takeda's teaching; the presence of aiki in the descendants of those students indicates that whatever means they devised to teach aiki skills, was effective.

Sagawa revealed some of his training methods only late in life, but those with whom he shared it have aiki. Horikawa likewise was able to transmit aiki to selected students, as there are descendants of his training today who have aiki and are teaching it. They are also recognizing that the training methods other systems outside the Japanese internal martial arts have the same critical components, and likely pre-date anything that Takeda and his aiki descendants possessed.

Rather than worry about things, it is more productive to note that if one has IP and aiki, whatever means that was used to develop it was effective. But even more important, before one makes these pronouncements, one should actually go out and experience IP and aiki so everyone is on the same page regarding what is being discussed here.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:40 AM   #149
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Re: 6 Directions

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Your attempt to set the bar for what level is necessary to participate in the conversation is shameful. This is not the voices of experience section. Have you no common courtesy?
Common courtesy is the self-regulation to post and contribute to threads which pique your interest and further the topic of the thread. The common courtesy missing here is to answer the questions of the thread and talk about an exercise that helps understand the feeling of 6 directions. Michael mentioned that drift are organic movements and I understand that people want to positively contribute to a topic. But this thread has now reached a point where probably the majority of the posts are not about the topic.

This thread drift hits close for me because several years ago I turned to Aikiweb in my search to check out "IP". In reading the threads, I would read a nugget of knowledge piled under many posts of drifted conjecture. Eventually, most of those posters left Aikiweb and even the nuggets started drying up. I think this thread was a great opportunity to provide the community some information about a basic exercise that introduces a core concept of internal power. Instead... history repeats itself.

Michael talked about a period of time where several IP posts drifted thread topics. My participation in many of those threads also commented on thread focus. Many of those posters were asked to leave the forum, or left of their on accord. This is not my first, nor will be my last (sorry Jun!!), comment to call out a significant thread drift that in my opinion changes the nature of the thread.

And to be clear, I am not setting a bar. I have no moderator status; I cannot delete posts. I am simply asking to keep our focus on-topic. I have read several posts that are relevant to a debate over the role of IP in aikido, but probably not germane to describing an exercise that by its nature requires consent that internal power exists and have a role in aikido. I think they would (and should) be excellent threads to contribute [to].

To your point about my comments establishing a quality of participation, we all should be speaking with a voice of experience. Some more than others. If we are not learning something from a contribution, can we still call it that?

Last edited by jonreading : 10-22-2013 at 08:43 AM.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:34 AM   #150
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Thread drift is par for the course here on AikiWeb. You've been around long enough to know that.

And not to play tit for tat, but I don't have to go back too many years to the hey day of "IP/IT/IS" on AikiWeb where it seemed like nearly every thread including some new members intros were "hijacked" by the "IP/IT/IS" crowd. It's just speculation, but that's probably why so many of the mainstay contributors from that time abandoned AikiWeb.

I think if you put stuff out there for discussion be prepared to encounter supporters and detractors. In the end those types of discussions have a way of bettering everyone who stays involved. Not so when everyone is just patting each other on the back with inside jokes and winky faces.
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