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Old 09-19-2013, 02:20 PM   #1
akiy
 
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YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

Here's a video clip of Moriteru Ueshiba (Doshu) demonstrating at Kamakura Hachimangu in Japan.



What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:51 PM   #2
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

Liked it.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:02 PM   #3
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

There were positives and negatives about the technique, although it was obviously very smooth and polished. The thing that really struck me, though, is that the ukemi was superb.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:20 AM   #4
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

question, has he hips problem and/or knees? just curious.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:20 AM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

A nice demonstration of modern aikido, albeit very by the numbers and typical.

Not to be the poo-poo-er here, but it's something that anyone who has been practicing regularly for a few years should be able to do with such measured and predictable attacks. Still, very nice flow and all that.
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Old 09-20-2013, 10:46 AM   #6
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

What i like most about the Hombu-style Aikido embu is the spontaneous flow. Doshu and a lot of shihan seem to always perform the exactly appropriate technique for the attack. This is something unique to Aikido that makes it stand out among other martial arts IMO.

(Note: if I ever find out these things are rehearsed, I am out of here.)
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:17 PM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
What i like most about the Hombu-style Aikido embu is the spontaneous flow. Doshu and a lot of shihan seem to always perform the exactly appropriate technique for the attack. This is something unique to Aikido that makes it stand out among other martial arts IMO.

(Note: if I ever find out these things are rehearsed, I am out of here.)
You honestly don't think they are rehearsed? Even if the flow of attacks isn't completely rehearsed, the way uke's are directed where to attack and the measured way in which they do so is practically the same thing. Though I'd still be they're hardly spontaneous.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:52 PM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You honestly don't think they are rehearsed? Even if the flow of attacks isn't completely rehearsed, the way uke's are directed where to attack and the measured way in which they do so is practically the same thing. Though I'd still be they're hardly spontaneous.
I don't see anybody being directed where to attack once they are going at it. Each uke looks like he is sticking to one attack, I think. No sure what you mean by measured...they are committing themselves, but you can see Doshu start to move before their attack really gets power behind it, and at that point they move into getting ready to take a fall. It's an embu after all, not a test or a fight.

And this is hardly the same thing as a rehearsed sequence of moves. IF it was rehearsed they could pull off some really dramatic looking things, or brutal looking things such as in a koryu embu.

So no, I do not think this is rehearsed. I will grant that uke may be being queued as to what attack to offer. And I will grant that the ukes and Doshu probably have experience training together and the ukes have been generally whipped into shape over time. But I do not believe Doshu is putting a significant amount of contrivance into what he does with the attack. He just lets it flow. And he doesn't put any fancy flourishes or anything in, it is just basic, pure Aiki.

Does anybody who has taken ukemi at one of these things have anything they add here? Does your teacher spend a couple of nights or weeks before the embu working out what techniques they are going to do and in what order?
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

Doshu's demonstrations are almost always virtually identical, and that's done purposely.

Generally speaking, the uke's have worked with him extensively and no resistance is ever given. Is it any wonder they look smooth?

I'm not sure whether that counts as rehearsed or not, but it's pretty close, in my book.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:42 PM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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I don't see anybody being directed where to attack once they are going at it. Each uke looks like he is sticking to one attack, I think. No sure what you mean by measured...they are committing themselves, but you can see Doshu start to move before their attack really gets power behind it, and at that point they move into getting ready to take a fall. It's an embu after all, not a test or a fight.

And this is hardly the same thing as a rehearsed sequence of moves. IF it was rehearsed they could pull off some really dramatic looking things, or brutal looking things such as in a koryu embu.

So no, I do not think this is rehearsed. I will grant that uke may be being queued as to what attack to offer. And I will grant that the ukes and Doshu probably have experience training together and the ukes have been generally whipped into shape over time. But I do not believe Doshu is putting a significant amount of contrivance into what he does with the attack. He just lets it flow. And he doesn't put any fancy flourishes or anything in, it is just basic, pure Aiki.

Does anybody who has taken ukemi at one of these things have anything they add here? Does your teacher spend a couple of nights or weeks before the embu working out what techniques they are going to do and in what order?
I thought I recalled him motioning them to his shoulder or wrist, but that was just him motioning for a new uke. Either way, it doesn't really change anything. I get that it's a demo and the point isn't for them to flatten him, but it's hard to ooh and aah over it when you know it's a by the numbers demo that has been done so many times and with such consistency in what uke gives that it is for all intents and purposes, rehearsed. Even with all that, there are times when he kind of loses uke, but since he's done this a thousand times and there is no resistance, he just keeps ticking along. I wonder if he gets bored doing these things? Even if we dilute aiki down to being this flowing exchange of weightless motion, how exciting can it be for him at this point?
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:45 PM   #11
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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I wonder if he gets bored doing these things?
From personal interaction with Doshu - yes, definitely.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:46 PM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Doshu's demonstrations are almost always virtually identical, and that's done purposely.

Generally speaking, the uke's have worked with him extensively and no resistance is ever given. Is it any wonder they look smooth?

I'm not sure whether that counts as rehearsed or not, but it's pretty close, in my book.

Best,

Chris
Do you think ukes should offer resistance during embu?
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:50 PM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Do you think ukes should offer resistance during embu?
Depends on what you want to show.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 01:54 PM   #14
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Do you think ukes should offer resistance during embu?
Depends on what you want to do I guess, but wouldn't it be far more interesting to see him having to actually adjust to what he's getting, take on some real force, break a sweat, get winded, while still pulling good techniques and even occasionally hitting that sweet spot between incoming force and movement where you think he might get clobbered, but blasts uke into a perfect technique?
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:55 PM   #15
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I thought I recalled him motioning them to his shoulder or wrist, but that was just him motioning for a new uke. Either way, it doesn't really change anything. I get that it's a demo and the point isn't for them to flatten him, but it's hard to ooh and aah over it when you know it's a by the numbers demo that has been done so many times and with such consistency in what uke gives that it is for all intents and purposes, rehearsed. Even with all that, there are times when he kind of loses uke, but since he's done this a thousand times and there is no resistance, he just keeps ticking along. I wonder if he gets bored doing these things? Even if we dilute aiki down to being this flowing exchange of weightless motion, how exciting can it be for him at this point?
It certainly seems to me that they don't come at him as hard as some of the other shihan. He may not actually have a choice in the matter.
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:57 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Depends on what you want to do I guess, but wouldn't it be far more interesting to see him having to actually adjust to what he's getting, take on some real force, break a sweat, get winded, while still pulling good techniques and even occasionally hitting that sweet spot between incoming force and movement where you think he might get clobbered, but blasts uke into a perfect technique?
It might be more interesting for me, but might not be the right thing to show to the gods.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:01 PM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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It might be more interesting for me, but might not be the right thing to show to the gods.
Is that what this is? There are different kinds of embu aren't there?

edit: Looked up the name of hte place and it's a shrine, but still, is that how these are presented? Honno embu? for the gods?
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:07 PM   #18
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Is that what this is? There are different kinds of embu aren't there?
This one is at Tsurugaoka Hachiman Jingu in Kamakura I think, so it's a good bet. I am pretty sure most of the time when the shihan are outside of their own dojo, at a "thing," throwing their own students around, its a honno embu.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:07 PM   #19
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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From personal interaction with Doshu - yes, definitely.

Best,

Chris
Interesting, but can he do anything about it? Does he care to do anything about it?
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:18 PM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
This one is at Tsurugaoka Hachiman Jingu in Kamakura I think, so it's a good bet. I am pretty sure most of the time when the shihan are outside of their own dojo, at a "thing," throwing their own students around, its a honno embu.
He gives the exact same demo everywhere else, I don't think it matters.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:20 PM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Interesting, but can he do anything about it? Does he care to do anything about it?
My person impression is - probably not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on how you think things are best held together. For better or worse, this is the choice that the Ueshiba's have made so far.

Not the choice that I would have made, though.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:22 PM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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My person impression is - probably not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on how you think things are best held together. For better or worse, this is the choice that the Ueshiba's have made so far.

Not the choice that I would have made, though.

Best,

Chris
It's the classic tale of the son of a wealthy industrialist forced into the family business when all he wants to do is open an ice cream shop! Well.. maybe not exactly..
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:26 PM   #23
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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He gives the exact same demo everywhere else, I don't think it matters.

Best,

Chris
What do you mean by exact same demo, though?
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:28 PM   #24
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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What do you mean by exact same demo, though?
Compare his demos - I've seen them many times and in many places. And I know from personal discussions that the demos are deliberately made to be the same everywhere (with just very minor differences).

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:32 PM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
It's the classic tale of the son of a wealthy industrialist forced into the family business when all he wants to do is open an ice cream shop! Well.. maybe not exactly..
There is a historical trend in Japanese society to put a figurehead at the top of their vertical hierarchies, maybe the Doshu's situation is similar.
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