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Old 04-03-2013, 11:48 AM   #101
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yep.

As Ellis Amdur notes, some folks (like me) are doing aikido with some infirmities and sharing what we can do with others who have infirmities, and I believe that is a good thing - but I have never led such a class for a single evening without being mindful of embodying to the best of my abilities, and sharing the key points as best I understand them, about the martial applications or principles our training is based on and pointing out some practical application of what we are doing.

When a student asks me a pointed question about why, from a practical defensive perspective, something is done this way rather than that way, if I can't demo it on the spot, we play with it for a while until it makes sense.

Otherwise, WTF are we doing while we work on posture, connection, kata, etc?!
Ah, there is the question, why are we doing this anyway....I am sure there are as many answers as there are practitioners.

Aikido as a self-defense is so much more than who wins the fight. It is about becoming the best person one can become and then bringing that best out into the world to help transform the world inch by inch...circumstance by circumstance.

The irony of being able to really defend oneself is that by going to the dark place and facing it, one may never need go back there.

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Old 04-03-2013, 01:31 PM   #102
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Re: how do we define martial?

Great posts...

I tend to agree with Kevin is regard to the ability to access a number of resources in resolving problems. We tend to accommodate solutions that do not apply or are not feasible more often than we should. A million dollars would solve many of my problems; however, it may not address the cause of why I needed a million dollars. In other words, we treat symptoms, not causes. Again, for me, martial arts [used to be] a collection of tools used to provide more ability in solving problems, specifically in combat. I used the comment from my grandfather to illustrate how an seemingly non-martial technology was more useful in his opinion then say, his 12-cut hand-to-hand knife sequence.

Love is not a resource, it is an emotion. You do not use a "love" to fix a flat tire, or pay a bill, or punch a guys lights out. You can perform an action with love; or, more appropriately, compassion or empathy. I will pay a restaurant bill with love in my heart after enjoying a romantic dinner with my wife. I will fix a flat tire with love in my heart that my family was uninjured in the accident. I will punch a guys lights out with love in my heart if that saves him from injuring himself or someone else. I don't want to hijack the thread to talk about "love is budo", but I think is has its relevancy...

I think Kevin's description of his practice of vegetarianism is a good one. I think when we consistently marginalize those aspects of budo we do not like, what we are left with is not only what we believe (right or wrong), but in fact the only way we can express [what we believe to be] budo. In another thread I made a comment about aikido's difficulty in expressing aiki. Given the ranging and non-definitive opinions of aiki, how could we possibly express with any consistency aiki?

Love is what will cause a mother to override her personal safety to save a child. Fear is what will allow a body to endure more effort than it should. Courage is what will provoke us to act when we otherwise would not. These are great emotions to understand and use to assist our action, but actions "solve" the problem.

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Old 04-03-2013, 01:56 PM   #103
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Re: how do we define martial?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I will punch a guys lights out with love in my heart if that saves him from injuring himself or someone else.
This.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:17 PM   #104
graham christian
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Great posts...

I tend to agree with Kevin is regard to the ability to access a number of resources in resolving problems. We tend to accommodate solutions that do not apply or are not feasible more often than we should. A million dollars would solve many of my problems; however, it may not address the cause of why I needed a million dollars. In other words, we treat symptoms, not causes. Again, for me, martial arts [used to be] a collection of tools used to provide more ability in solving problems, specifically in combat. I used the comment from my grandfather to illustrate how an seemingly non-martial technology was more useful in his opinion then say, his 12-cut hand-to-hand knife sequence.

Love is not a resource, it is an emotion. You do not use a "love" to fix a flat tire, or pay a bill, or punch a guys lights out. You can perform an action with love; or, more appropriately, compassion or empathy. I will pay a restaurant bill with love in my heart after enjoying a romantic dinner with my wife. I will fix a flat tire with love in my heart that my family was uninjured in the accident. I will punch a guys lights out with love in my heart if that saves him from injuring himself or someone else. I don't want to hijack the thread to talk about "love is budo", but I think is has its relevancy...

I think Kevin's description of his practice of vegetarianism is a good one. I think when we consistently marginalize those aspects of budo we do not like, what we are left with is not only what we believe (right or wrong), but in fact the only way we can express [what we believe to be] budo. In another thread I made a comment about aikido's difficulty in expressing aiki. Given the ranging and non-definitive opinions of aiki, how could we possibly express with any consistency aiki?

Love is what will cause a mother to override her personal safety to save a child. Fear is what will allow a body to endure more effort than it should. Courage is what will provoke us to act when we otherwise would not. These are great emotions to understand and use to assist our action, but actions "solve" the problem.
Ah, Jon, I'm glad you wrote this post.

I could go on and explain why Budo is love but like first and foremost your looking at how it assists in action but is not actually the action. In fact if you changed your perspective slightly you may see it is indeed a resource and all the other 'lesser' emotions are resources which people call upon in order to do, act.

However I won't go further into that here.

What I would ask you to do though is read my thread called responsibility in learning. I divide things into three equal parts there. Love is the student, here would be the open mind, the stable awareness, the all embracing awareness of the whole. In that thread spirit is the teacher, the disciplined action, the doer. Soul is the overseer, the all receiving aspect.

So you see from my view it's not a matter of not that but only this or even just this so forget about or have that as minor. It's a matter of all three.

O'Sensei talked much of budo is love along with explaining oneness and universal (heart) and in fact would take it further and virtually say that is the ultimate eventually. However he also called it non-resistance in action (spirit) and ultimate harmony (soul). So although this is my explanation I hope it clears up a few misapprehensions on my view of budo is love.

It takes great heart to be a warrior, it takes great soul to be a warrior, and it takes great spirit too.

Each is actually active. Thinking of only one then we miss out on two.

You can now if you like say I say there are three spirits of Aikido.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:33 PM   #105
Marc Abrams
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

It takes great heart to be a warrior, it takes great soul to be a warrior, and it takes great spirit too.

Peace.G.
Ghenghis Khan was a great warrior. I do not think that many people would talk about his great heart and soul. There is an unfortunate tendency to romanticize the idea of a warrior. This same tendency to distort is also seen in "translating" O'Sensei's words to fit within some kind of romanticized, "new age" framework. Graham likes to talk at length about what O'Sensei said and meant, without being about to cite the actual Japanese and the translations that he is relying on. He might not consider such facts to be important, but many of us do. If you want to express some idiosyncratic meanings of terms and interpretations of what other people said, then you should note it as such, rather than trying to "prove" the "correctness" of those positions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:37 PM   #106
graham christian
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Ghenghis Khan was a great warrior. I do not think that many people would talk about his great heart and soul. There is an unfortunate tendency to romanticize the idea of a warrior. This same tendency to distort is also seen in "translating" O'Sensei's words to fit within some kind of romanticized, "new age" framework. Graham likes to talk at length about what O'Sensei said and meant, without being about to cite the actual Japanese and the translations that he is relying on. He might not consider such facts to be important, but many of us do. If you want to express some idiosyncratic meanings of terms and interpretations of what other people said, then you should note it as such, rather than trying to "prove" the "correctness" of those positions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Marc Abrams
Well excuse me. I'm quite clear they are my interpretations. Most others are too. I'm quite clear that others are intelligent too and quite capable of coming to their own conclusions as to whether they think what I say is good, crackers or in between.

If you think Ghenghis Khan had no heart and soul or little and that I have him in the class of great then that's your business. I'm sure there is whole part of the world which would beg to differ. However that's neither an example of mine or relevant to what I call warrior either, literally speaking.

I've told you before I don't try to prove anything.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:41 PM   #107
Cady Goldfield
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Re: how do we define martial?

Getting right down to the most primal purpose of war, it's about:
1. territory
2. wimmins
3. resources for keeping wimmins and the progeny you get 'em pregnant with. (This is a subset of "territory.")

War and things martial are a male institution. However, war is both In/Yin and Yo/Yang:
1. In/Yin: Defending your territory/wimmins/resources against invaders who want your territory/wimmins/resources.
2. Yo/Yang: Invading someone else's territory in order to take said territory, their wimmins and resources. This can be done by overt force and taking, or by "diplomatic negotiating" when one is in the superior position and offers "diplomatic" solutions. Nevertheless, it is conquest.

This has not changed since the dawn of human settlement.

We can plaster on layers of nuance and sophistication, but it after all the fancy wrappings are peeled off, it still comes down to the above.

So, in defining "martial" as regards the "martial arts," in civilized societies, we are either just playing a game of symbolic militarism, or we are training for "self-defense," which goes back to the intial purpos of things martial (see In/Yin aspects, above).

We can apply rationale and romanticism or nobility to all of this, of course, including the "spiritual" angle of training to a level of expertise that give us the power to be generous and merciful to others -- withholding the sword from a posiition of power, rather than relinquishing the sword out of weakness.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:09 PM   #108
graham christian
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Getting right down to the most primal purpose of war, it's about:
1. territory
2. wimmins
3. resources for keeping wimmins and the progeny you get 'em pregnant with. (This is a subset of "territory.")

War and things martial are a male institution. However, war is both In/Yin and Yo/Yang:
1. In/Yin: Defending your territory/wimmins/resources against invaders who want your territory/wimmins/resources.
2. Yo/Yang: Invading someone else's territory in order to take said territory, their wimmins and resources. This can be done by overt force and taking, or by "diplomatic negotiating" when one is in the superior position and offers "diplomatic" solutions. Nevertheless, it is conquest.

This has not changed since the dawn of human settlement.

We can plaster on layers of nuance and sophistication, but it after all the fancy wrappings are peeled off, it still comes down to the above.

So, in defining "martial" as regards the "martial arts," in civilized societies, we are either just playing a game of symbolic militarism, or we are training for "self-defense," which goes back to the intial purpos of things martial (see In/Yin aspects, above).

We can apply rationale and romanticism or nobility to all of this, of course, including the "spiritual" angle of training to a level of expertise that give us the power to be generous and merciful to others -- withholding the sword from a posiition of power, rather than relinquishing the sword out of weakness.
So those at war with me obviously don't want my territory so they must want my wimmin.

Now I understand

Peace.G.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:31 PM   #109
Cady Goldfield
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So those at war with me obviously don't want my territory so they must want my wimmin.

Now I understand

Peace.G.
Unless someone is hurling poop, spears or missiles at your home or person, no one is at war with you, Graham. But if anyone is after your wimmin, perhaps we should be asking, "how do we define marital?"
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:00 PM   #110
graham christian
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Re: how do we define martial?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Unless someone is hurling poop, spears or missiles at your home or person, no one is at war with you, Graham. But if anyone is after your wimmin, perhaps we should be asking, "how do we define marital?"
Makes sense, after all, budo is love

I'll tell you a secret, you know why folk have their ways of how a martial art should be and why they believe things should be as they see it? Answer: Because they luv it! Budo is luvvin it

Peace.G.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:44 AM   #111
phitruong
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Makes sense, after all, budo is love

I'll tell you a secret, you know why folk have their ways of how a martial art should be and why they believe things should be as they see it? Answer: Because they luv it! Budo is luvvin it

Peace.G.
does that means doing budo is making love? however, isn't budo means stopping the trust, and wouldn't that interfere with love making? then one needs to ask about how to making love while wearing those funny skirts? and since the majority of budo folks are men, wouldn't that make us go both ways?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:37 AM   #112
Cliff Judge
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Re: how do we define martial?

What's our definition of love, though?

I've been interested in Marishiten lately. Marishiten - who as an uneducated English speaker I will refer to as she though i think there are issues with that - was a deity very important to bushi from the 10th century up into the Edo period.

We don't seem to have received much about Marishiten in the spirituality of Aikido but i believe understanding a bit about her and why she was worshipped is of paramount important in any discussion about what budo actually is.

Anyway - what her devotees sought from her was all about perception. You wanted your enemies to be blinded and unable to see you, while you wanted for yourself, the ability to not be tricked by illusion, and to see clearly what was actually happening.

I think there is a link between that and the concept of bu, and probably of "love" as well. It certainly speaks to the concern that professional warriors have of their jobs not only on the battlefield, where obviously there are issues such as the fog of war, the need to not fall into traps while making your own traps work, etc. There are the issues raised when one leader sits down with an opposing leader, and they try to come to terms, with various internal factions trying to push things one way or another. How do you see through the emotions and baggage and make a deal? There is also the issue of which side to join when battle lines are drawn, and when to decide to pull your guys out and switch sides. Its not just about making correct decisions in battle, its about making correct decisions before and after battle, and decisions about battle.

Two men who have fought against each other and have probably killed many of each other's close friends and family, sitting down and hammering out a peace agreement. Acting in accord with allies and enemies. That's a form of love, right? It is certainly stopping spears.

So an art that allows one to prevent violence from developing, or perhaps even starting in the first place, that would be a fine martial art. I would think warriors who answered only to other warriors would find such an art quite worthy of study.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #113
Cady Goldfield
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Re: how do we define martial?

I'd offer that "love" as Ueshiba meant it, may be a bit different than how Westerners interpret it. More along the lines of harmony, accord and balance than of warm affection or anything related to that emotion.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:43 PM   #114
Erick Mead
 
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
But if anyone is after your wimmin, perhaps we should be asking, "how do we define marital?"
Ahem.

It may do no real good to point out that the difference between the words -- "martial" and "marital" -- is the letter transposition written : (t)i[t].

Purely linguistically speaking, of course ...


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:55 PM   #115
phitruong
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Re: how do we define martial?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Ahem.

It may do no real good to point out that the difference between the words -- "martial" and "marital" -- is the letter transposition written : (t)i[t].

Purely linguistically speaking, of course ...

it's the same really. have you seen the movie "War of the Roses"?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #116
graham christian
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
What's our definition of love, though?

I've been interested in Marishiten lately. Marishiten - who as an uneducated English speaker I will refer to as she though i think there are issues with that - was a deity very important to bushi from the 10th century up into the Edo period.

We don't seem to have received much about Marishiten in the spirituality of Aikido but i believe understanding a bit about her and why she was worshipped is of paramount important in any discussion about what budo actually is.

Anyway - what her devotees sought from her was all about perception. You wanted your enemies to be blinded and unable to see you, while you wanted for yourself, the ability to not be tricked by illusion, and to see clearly what was actually happening.

I think there is a link between that and the concept of bu, and probably of "love" as well. It certainly speaks to the concern that professional warriors have of their jobs not only on the battlefield, where obviously there are issues such as the fog of war, the need to not fall into traps while making your own traps work, etc. There are the issues raised when one leader sits down with an opposing leader, and they try to come to terms, with various internal factions trying to push things one way or another. How do you see through the emotions and baggage and make a deal? There is also the issue of which side to join when battle lines are drawn, and when to decide to pull your guys out and switch sides. Its not just about making correct decisions in battle, its about making correct decisions before and after battle, and decisions about battle.

Two men who have fought against each other and have probably killed many of each other's close friends and family, sitting down and hammering out a peace agreement. Acting in accord with allies and enemies. That's a form of love, right? It is certainly stopping spears.

So an art that allows one to prevent violence from developing, or perhaps even starting in the first place, that would be a fine martial art. I would think warriors who answered only to other warriors would find such an art quite worthy of study.
Cliff,
this is very much on the lines of what I refer to. Until studying and seeing what love actually does for real one cannot then understand how or even why such martial masters or spiritual masters said what they said.

For instance I categorically say that without love then spiritually, or perception wise if you like, you are blind. You cannot see properly or through. Now it's a matter of seeing how all the qualities of love work and what they do. Yes they comfort, yes they support, yes they allow you to see clearly, yes they are all embrasive and yes on a few other qualities. The question is what do they support naturally.

Being an advocate of this and saying how real it is I will share how we approach Aikido or another as an 'opponent' in Aikido from this view.

When people say they are developing feeling what are they saying? They are saying they are developing perception. They are now learning to operate from a different position, a different part of themself. Heart. Love. Without even knowing it they are beginning to use qualities of love and thus their percption and awareness gets more all embracing, more seeing through to what they would never have noticed before etc. etc. So people can deny it all they want but I just smile for I know they are now working more with love, their Aikido is improving, they're adding all kinds special ancient methological reasons to it, but basically they are hitting upon part of what Ueshiba or others from the past were talking about.

I often explain to folk new to the reality that due to their own considerations about what love actually is and the lack of it generally genuinely expressed in life this is why when they fall in love it's so shocking and overwhelming. Then I also ask what they think a whirlwind romance is. A sudden abundance of what they're not used to, swept away in the spiral, and then when landing back on the ground wondering what all that was about.

When it comes to things like sen sen no sen or even beyond that if that's what Ueshiba said then once again it's to do with that clear see through perception which comes from love. The effect on the person receiving such is both amazing when you do it and amazing when listening to them as to what happened for them.

This of course applies to the example given of sitting down discussing with enemies a way forward as you rightly point out.

I'll finish by saying this aspect can thus ultimately lead to tranquility in action. In such the true tranquility in action would be a very powerful and inescapable thing.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:02 AM   #117
Lorien Lowe
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Getting right down to the most primal purpose of war, it's about:
1. territory
2. wimmins
3. resources for keeping wimmins and the progeny you get 'em pregnant with. (This is a subset of "territory.")

War and things martial are a male institution. However, war is both In/Yin and Yo/Yang:
1. In/Yin: Defending your territory/wimmins/resources against invaders who want your territory/wimmins/resources.
2. Yo/Yang: Invading someone else's territory in order to take said territory, their wimmins and resources. This can be done by overt force and taking, or by "diplomatic negotiating" when one is in the superior position and offers "diplomatic" solutions. Nevertheless, it is conquest.

This has not changed since the dawn of human settlement.

We can plaster on layers of nuance and sophistication, but it after all the fancy wrappings are peeled off, it still comes down to the above.

So, in defining "martial" as regards the "martial arts," in civilized societies, we are either just playing a game of symbolic militarism, or we are training for "self-defense," which goes back to the intial purpos of things martial (see In/Yin aspects, above).

We can apply rationale and romanticism or nobility to all of this, of course, including the "spiritual" angle of training to a level of expertise that give us the power to be generous and merciful to others -- withholding the sword from a posiition of power, rather than relinquishing the sword out of weakness.
One is forced to wonder what the poster thinks of female budoka, given this definition. Are we all stupid, or are we just gay?
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:33 AM   #118
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I'd offer that "love" as Ueshiba meant it, may be a bit different than how Westerners interpret it. More along the lines of harmony, accord and balance than of warm affection or anything related to that emotion.
Well said, Cady.

Here, what with absolutes.

Liberté, egalité and fraternité, a trinity, if not adequately defined and confined, as absolutes per se, one of them would surely be excluded by the other two of them put together.

Loving protection for all things, what a wonderful idea, but still in reality where does it exist? All over the known universe extinction of whole planetary systems and here on earth extinction of whole species is what we observe. We may call this creation in process.

Couldn't it be, that we poor human creatures by our natural gift, the ability to think and reflect, simply do need to give and find order in our ways to describe and reflect this chaotic reality, so as to not get lost in despair? Isn't it in reality we who create the physical order and laws we believe to have objectively found, because it' s our way to see things, and create beliefs and religions to draw hope out of the otherwise impossible?

Perhaps, all we can do is strive for some harmony, accord and balance?
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:21 AM   #119
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: how do we define martial?

Of course, " planetary" in this context is incorrect, better think of whole solar systems, even galaxies.
Best
Bernd
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:11 AM   #120
Cady Goldfield
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
One is forced to wonder what the poster thinks of female budoka, given this definition. Are we all stupid, or are we just gay?
The poster is a female budoka, and also a naturalist and an observer of evolutionary ecology.
We are animals, and we are wired for certain behaviors just as are all other creatures. Our self-consciousness and intellect allow us to create rationales and layers of nuanced behaviors that, if peeled away, come down to the same basic drives as all of life on Earth.

Females fight for resources and territory, and mates, but with a subtle difference in motives and an overt difference in method and technology. Intelligence has nothing to do with any of these drives or approaches, however, and women certainly have the intellect and capabiligy to strategize large-scale warfare. But hormonally we don't tend to have the levels of testosterone that make us (as a group) aggressors that would be the perpetrators of invasive warfare.

As for being budoka, again the difference is largely in motives. Self-defense, and the defense of children and the helpless, are more normally the extent of the martial aspect for women. In budo, there are abstract aspects that are attractive to women, that are not directly combative. Very few, if any, women train to be mercenaries who are going to go into violent fields of work. Some women like to spar and do MMA, but they are a small minority, and there are a number of factors, both simple and complex, tied into this choice of pursuit.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-05-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:00 AM   #121
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Well said, Cady.

Here, what with absolutes.

Liberté, egalité and fraternité, a trinity, if not adequately defined and confined, as absolutes per se, one of them would surely be excluded by the other two of them put together.

Loving protection for all things, what a wonderful idea, but still in reality where does it exist? All over the known universe extinction of whole planetary systems and here on earth extinction of whole species is what we observe. We may call this creation in process.

Couldn't it be, that we poor human creatures by our natural gift, the ability to think and reflect, simply do need to give and find order in our ways to describe and reflect this chaotic reality, so as to not get lost in despair? Isn't it in reality we who create the physical order and laws we believe to have objectively found, because it' s our way to see things, and create beliefs and religions to draw hope out of the otherwise impossible?

Perhaps, all we can do is strive for some harmony, accord and balance?
Bernd, maybe you could take a second look. The whole universe has an order, a balance, a harmonious alignment. All these 'chaos' viewpoints as far as I can see it are of themselves chaotic.

In all life organisms we find even in the word itself (organic, organism, organised, organisation) that life organizes. In your own body millions of cells working in harmony, organs, tissues, etc. all with different functions yet as a whole working in support of each other. Thus when all are doing their function correctly there are in fact helping and supporting all the others and thus a a version of the spitit of loving protection for all things.

The galaxies and universes and how they act can also be seen in the smallest of things and there you see once again a natural order and continuous motion.

As I said earlier about military borrowing from the martial arts so it is with nature. Martial experts borrow from the fine observations of the principles involved in nature and yet on the other hand so to military.

Just take organisms and what life does. It organizes. People organize into groups of friends etc. Then some general or leader somewhere notices organization beats the multitude who are not very organized and thus armies are born.

Spirit of loving protection exists on the one side for all in it's army and on the other side for all in it's army. Unfortunately not from one army to the other army. Thus they have still more to learn.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #122
john2054
Location: Derby
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Re: how do we define martial?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
sheesh! i was going to stay out of this conflict, but then you made fun of bongo drums. that means war!

this whole martial thing is kinda interesting. back in the dark age, before Al Gore invented the internet, before the bell bottom pants and bongo drums, in asia, mostly chinese and related courts of lord and emperor, you have folks that lined up both side. on the one side, you got all these folks looked like dead trees who were good with words and numbers, so they ran the country/domain in all its administrative aspects. their idea of funs included comparing their balls pickled in a jar. these dead trees referred to as the administrative lords or modern day geeks. on the other side, a bunch of mean and nasty and ugly looking bunch, who were ready to party on moment notice, who would kick ass and not even bother with name (these guys knew how to party back then), who armed to teeth, mostly armed with teeth. these party goers refered to the martial lords or the modern day of jocks.

so folks back then were conditioned to understand that the emperor is god (actually representing god who owned all the women, which opposites of jesus, who didn't even have a date), and folks can be elevated to either the administrative or the martial positions. back then they also believed in examination to determine the best person for certain position. if you can write well and good with numbers, i.e. playing with your toy abacus and talking in code like omg, lol, and so on, then you can land an administrative position. on the other hand, if you are a brute who can drink gallons of wine and beat the living day lights out of folks, then you can land in a martial position. then you have this really special position where if you read/write well and can party like 1999 and beat the living day light out of nerds, jocks, women, children, old folks, dogs, cats, sheeps (maybe the sheeps), then you are a special breed which is a very highly regarded as the warrior sage, the guy of guys, the budo man, the top of the heap. and your post would be the lord of night soil operatives.

so are we define martial as the characteristics of the lord of night soil operatives? it's a very important position which governs every aspect of our lives. it required men/women/dogs/cats/occasional sheeps of strong will and characters. it required enlightment and conflict resolution. it required strong and tough body. but most of all, it required the friggin gas mask, rubber boots and gloves.
Good points Phil. I think one of the key issues these so called 'aiki' or 'budo' experts on this site is missing is that it's all just a game. And you (read they) are losing! But why is that you may ask? Well let me tell you why. Because once upon a time, as you rightfully recognised in this post, things were done a little shall we say, differently. 'Senseis' in the dojo were not bowed to on credit of their merit, but of their rank.

What I think we have to remember here is that 'the martial' arts, is a political category. This is in face of, and despite the great 'political' ignorance of many of these so called masters, who wouldn't for the life of them know how to demonstrate on a free nelson mandela or dont attack iraq demonstration, much less register to vote. But that is where things have now begun to change. With the election of America's first black president, and his reelection we can see this political realm beginning to take hold in the everyday man and womans perspective and respective field of visions in everyday life.

I don't know what it's like in your guys (and gals) cities of the world, but certainly here in derby uk the political stratosphere is reasserting the power of democracy. I can also see this equality as slowly beginning to influence my local aikido dojo, of which i have trained with for about four months now.

But I have been an active aikeyboard warrior for much longer than that. And hell the amount of sites i have been banned from for challenging the status quo there really is quite prodigious. Basically google martial arts forum, and what you will see is where i have been banned from. Ranging from martial edge, bullshido,net to martialartstalk.net and the rest. However that latter one has reinstated my membership for reasons of which i am not at liberty to discuss here.

So if we are talking about my odd of withstanding a prolonged membership on this site, i would say that the odds are stacked pretty high against me. I seem to have the habit of pissing of mods with inappropriate remarks, ranging from swearing at other members, to pming mods with the f word in acts of rage, to commenting on my own historical deviance (read criminal read against women etc etc) and so you see this is the result. I have even been banned from a couple of local dojos read karate and judo, and prohibitted from a couple more read kickboxing and jiujitsu. But be this as it may, i am a political fighter, all be it on my own terms.

And also some of the ten headed green breathed monsters i have cared to face in hospital are ten nay twenty times the beast that most of the posters on this thread have even cared to dream about in their worst nightmares. A bold assertion I know, but what's more I can back it up.

So the big question is, am i jeopardizing my own stay here by holding my head high, or will the senior ranks of this place take one whiff in my direction and plead for me to get back in line? We will see!
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:14 AM   #123
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
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Re: how do we define martial?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
... The whole universe has an order, a balance, a harmonious alignment. All these 'chaos' viewpoints as far as I can see it are of themselves chaotic.

In all life organisms we find even in the word itself (organic, organism, organised, organisation) that life organizes. In your own body millions of cells working in harmony, organs, tissues, etc. all with different functions yet as a whole working in support of each other. Thus when all are doing their function correctly there are in fact helping and supporting all the others and thus a a version of the spitit of loving protection for all things.
This whole approach only works if you accept that the wolf pack pulling down the moose calf is operating within the harmony of the universe. The orca stealing a seal from an ice floe is operating in harmony. The tsunami wiping out a village is operating in harmony.

Humans are humans because we have the ability to choose other options. The drunk who wanders out into traffic gets himself killed according to the universe's law of natural consequences--but a compassionate observer might pull him back before the universe's law can operate.

I think this is very much where Aikido plays. If you stop a mugger by breaking his neck, well okay--natural consequences, though you may find the legalities involved somewhat more complex. But AIkido aspires to neutralize the attack without harming the attacker and even if that goal is more theoretical than real it affects how Aikido is thought about and practiced. Aikido teaches how to stand in the place of decision, where to harm or not to harm lies in your own hands.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:23 AM   #124
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: how do we define martial?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This whole approach only works if you accept that the wolf pack pulling down the moose calf is operating within the harmony of the universe. The orca stealing a seal from an ice floe is operating in harmony. The tsunami wiping out a village is operating in harmony.

Humans are humans because we have the ability to choose other options. The drunk who wanders out into traffic gets himself killed according to the universe's law of natural consequences--but a compassionate observer might pull him back before the universe's law can operate.

I think this is very much where Aikido plays. If you stop a mugger by breaking his neck, well okay--natural consequences, though you may find the legalities involved somewhat more complex. But AIkido aspires to neutralize the attack without harming the attacker and even if that goal is more theoretical than real it affects how Aikido is thought about and practiced. Aikido teaches how to stand in the place of decision, where to harm or not to harm lies in your own hands.
Well, not quite how I see it but interesting view. universal laws thus lead to natural consequences but when you bring people and animals into the equation you really have to understand another part of the universe and universal law to understand natural consequences and that would be the laws of karma.

As humans it is up to us to understand and harmonize with the planetary nature. Most fatalities in disaster areas could have been prevented and would have if wisdom was the modus operandi but hey, human don't quite equate with wisdom......yet.

I like your words 'stand in the place of decision'. Luv it.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:47 AM   #125
john2054
Location: Derby
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Re: how do we define martial?

Hi everyone. I purposely wrote that last post in the attempt of getting a rise off one or two of you. It seemed like I failed in that intention! What I will say is that I went to my club today and got beaten up a bit. We did Ikkyo Nikkyo Sankyo shunkyo gyokyo tenshinage goshinage gyacuzi iriminage and etc etc. In fact if the truth be told i cant remember what we did and i think i made up some of those moves, but you get the point. Hell surely it's not about WHAT we did but HOW we did it! In consequence of this, and not withstanding the other comments i or others have made both before and after now, I would like to say that we did some good moves and ours is a good club. We train in the old fashioned techniques old statford used to teach before he passed away, and they don't like giving belts away. Be this as it may, I have pleaded, bribed and cajouled my sensei into giving me a grading, and today he finally relented and said he would give me and C* one (a jiusitsu blackbelt who has been training at our club for a few months), a grading in a month or two. All I have to worry about now is learning the syllabus, which i think is a large undertaking seeing as there are lots of japanese names and my memory isn't very good. Well I generally know how to do the moves if I am shown them, but if I was asked to demonstrate one without prompting i think that i would struggle. Be this as it may, i have read the two articles on kyu grading on thie site, and they both seem to give the impression that the gradings are done at the discretions of the dan grades, and that in fact seeing as it is very much their club, that it is down to their discretion who gets to wear a coloured belt and who stays monocrome. I have trained from sept to dec and feb to now (early april) so i think i have put in the requisite forty hours typically asked for the first belt. Whether my aiki is good enough or not of course remains to be seen. True my lungs are pretty crap, and i have a tendency to bend over after a projection, which i keep on being told about. Never mind. At least i walk in the full knowledge that if any thug does confront me, that i have both the intention and ability to put him (or her) on his (or her) ass, and then finish or walk away depending on my disposition at the time.

This is, after all, surely what Budo is all about ;-)
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