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Old 01-31-2013, 03:16 PM   #26
RonRagusa
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I've done all of these things quite a lot. With feel parallel or on one foot, without changing the way the force is coming in, it's impossible to resist much force. I can stand that way (parallel or on one foot), and redirect the push, which makes me very stable, and wears uke out.
When I think of redirection of a force I assume a counter force is being applied at an angle to the incoming force as in slipping a punch and applying force to the attackers arm at a right angle to the direction of the punch.

So when you redirect the push are you changing the angle at which the force is being applied to your arm? And can you do that while keeping your arm straight? I would do it by slightly bending my wrist and elbow. With the added benefit of coordinating mind and body (intent) I can reduce the amount of force reaching my shoulder to practically zero. I think of it as dissipating the force as opposed to redirecting it but I suppose both are at work to one degree or another.

From what I have garnered reading Aikiweb posts, the "internal" folks claim that a sufficiently trained person is capable of resisting a full on front push to the chest in natural stance without displaying any outward movement whatsoever. I've never seen it done or fail to be done so I can't say yea or nay at this point. Assuming for the moment that the claims are true, how could you use alignment and structure to explain the feat?

Ron

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:07 PM   #27
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

So how come if you push a car, you don't align your bones? Elbows, knees, hips are all bent to some degree. Why is this the most efficient way? After all, pushing a car is just the reverse problem of being pushed by a car.

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:53 PM   #28
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
When I think of redirection of a force I assume a counter force is being applied at an angle to the incoming force as in slipping a punch and applying force to the attackers arm at a right angle to the direction of the punch.

So when you redirect the push are you changing the angle at which the force is being applied to your arm? And can you do that while keeping your arm straight? I would do it by slightly bending my wrist and elbow. With the added benefit of coordinating mind and body (intent) I can reduce the amount of force reaching my shoulder to practically zero. I think of it as dissipating the force as opposed to redirecting it but I suppose both are at work to one degree or another.

From what I have garnered reading Aikiweb posts, the "internal" folks claim that a sufficiently trained person is capable of resisting a full on front push to the chest in natural stance without displaying any outward movement whatsoever. I've never seen it done or fail to be done so I can't say yea or nay at this point. Assuming for the moment that the claims are true, how could you use alignment and structure to explain the feat?

Ron
Hey Ron,
I've tried it several ways. Of late I've been working on a way to do it quite nicely with slightly bent arms.

I believe that you are correct about 'internal' people making this claim. I have never seen this either. I have seen displays of alignment as I've shown in my video. I've also seen demonstrations of redirecting/dissipating/deflecting (whatever we want to call it). I've also seen a large number of novel tricks that can make it look like this is possible. But I've never seen video, or in person demonstration of someone standing square, not aligning and taking (relatively) large amounts of force. There's a lot of hearsay about such things.

Until I've seen it, I can't and wouldn't try, to explain it. We've got to look at everything on a case by case basis.

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:58 PM   #29
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
So how come if you push a car, you don't align your bones? Elbows, knees, hips are all bent to some degree. Why is this the most efficient way? After all, pushing a car is just the reverse problem of being pushed by a car.
Well, you do align your bones. If you've ever pushed a car, or watched someone do it, you see them get into a steep position to start pushing. This steep position lines up the bones/structure of the body with the force of the car. This enables us to use weight and alignment to help us.

The joints bend to help the muscles apply active force to the object we want to move. We bend our knees to extend our legs to move the car.

In the receiving a push discussion we are talking mostly about passive resistance. In the car pushing example, we are talking about very active pushing. The muscles propel the car forward when we move the car. The muscles hold the alignment when we are receiving force.

You are correct, similar, but slightly different. In either situation alignment helps greatly.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:17 AM   #30
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

I haven't found a video of push tests on an arm, but this one might be close enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLOGR...ailpage#t=141s
I don't know much about this instructor, but the beginning of this fragment looks like push tests we do (to about 2:40). Uke is not pushing on the instructor's arm, but directly on his center, which probably makes it easier. Also, the instructor is obviously pushed on his heels at the start. He has to correct a bit and he might be leaning on uke later on, so there is room for improvement here.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 02-01-2013 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:11 AM   #31
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

Well, I wouldn't say that he is receiving much of a push.

He is also ready to hook the guys elbow area. He didn't really latch on, but he also didn't receive much force. Any time you see them reaching out with their hands to make contact with the pusher, especially if they are hooking the arm or reaching under the pushing hands, there is a good chance they are bracing themselves by attaching to the pusher. It's kind of a trick, but depending on what you're looking at it's also kind of a legitimate technique.

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:37 AM   #32
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

We do the push test without touching uke or keeping our hands near uke's elbow. And quite a few of Dan's students would do a lot better than what is shown in this video.

Then again, I don't want to be negative about this instructor. He seems to be demonstrating something else than just receiving a push. I just picked this video because this part looked similar to a push test we commonly do.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 02-01-2013 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:12 AM   #33
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

You say there isn't much of a push in the video.
I don't know how well one can see how strong a push is.
For example, there are several videos on YouTube about the Aunkai pushout exercise, which you have undoubtedly seen before.
I've never studied Aunkai, so I'm not sure if the purpose of this exercise is actualy a push test, but assuming that is is to some extent, one could do this test with very little force or quite a lot of force. If you and you partner are balancing out, there are no visual cues to the amount of force being exerted.

The only way to know for sure is by measuring, not by watching a video.

My own body weight is 70 kgs (155 lbs).
When I push a bathroom scale horizontally against a wall, I have to push hard to get to 20 kgs (45 lbs), about 30% of my body weight. The height of my horizontal push is 120 cm (4 ft) from the ground. I'm 178 cm tall (5'11").

I recently asked my wife to push the bathroom scale against my belly, and gently increase the pressure. (Getting my wife to do it gently is a challenge in itself )
I don't allow myself to cheat by leaning on my partner. My partner is allowed to suddenly and unexpectedly remove his/her force. If I lose my balance, I was cheating.
My limit was 9 kgs (20 lbs), 12% of my body weight. The height of the push was about 105 cm (3'6") from the ground.
I consider this a moderate push when I push the scale against the wall to the same amount. I might do a bit better if I practise more with my wife and the scale, but I think these number are a good indication of my current ability.

I gave you my numbers so you can go ahead and demonstrate that you can withstand a stronger push than me using nothing but athleticism. I have no doubt that you'll succeed.

I really don't think push tests should be like a weight lifting contest. I think it's for monitoring my own progress. Most important for me is that I'm a lot better now than when I started. (I haven't done such a test when I started so I have no numbers to support that, though.)
Anyway, I'm still very low level. Is it too far fetched that I could increase my limit to 20 kgs (45 lbs) by training a few years more?
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:55 AM   #34
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I really don't think push tests should be like a weight lifting contest. I think it's for monitoring my own progress. Most important for me is that I'm a lot better now than when I started.
He hits the nail squarely upon its head folks.

While all of these exercises make for impressive demonstrations their employment as training tools is where their real value lies.

Ron

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Old 02-01-2013, 07:38 AM   #35
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Hey Ron,
I've tried it several ways. Of late I've been working on a way to do it quite nicely with slightly bent arms.

I believe that you are correct about 'internal' people making this claim. I have never seen this either. I have seen displays of alignment as I've shown in my video. I've also seen demonstrations of redirecting/dissipating/deflecting (whatever we want to call it). I've also seen a large number of novel tricks that can make it look like this is possible. But I've never seen video, or in person demonstration of someone standing square, not aligning and taking (relatively) large amounts of force. There's a lot of hearsay about such things.

Until I've seen it, I can't and wouldn't try, to explain it. We've got to look at everything on a case by case basis.
This, to my mind, is a good summary of where you come from, Chris. Many would agree.

Ron may have gone a step further in his approach by relating to ki, as a good teaching tool in the way Tohei may have intended.

But it appears to me, that the " hardcore internal" people in aikido apply ki more as a subset of applying intent and other things, so that ki alone isn't sufficient to do or explain the things that happen in the process of effective aiki(do) nor what they have in mind with this internal stuff.

And a simple model for structure and using vectors may even be of lesser use to them.
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #36
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

Frankly, I can't tell the difference between ki and intent, except intent is less woo so maybe more acceptable to people who have burned out on ki.

Ron, I think the points you're making about working with bent arms here, and earlier when you pointed out that Chris H's first block man diagram was best for resisting a push, are very deep.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #37
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Frankly, I can't tell the difference between ki and intent, except intent is less woo so maybe more acceptable to people who have burned out on ki. .
Good point - I work with extending ki per my instructors in K Tohei Sensei lineage and with focusing or projecting intent per seminars w/ Ikeda Sensei and Ledyard Sensei - in my own practice, the latter has built on the former, giving me more specific body tools for implementing the former - on a purely visualization/metaphor level they are darn close and "intent" may make more sense as a term to some folks.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:16 PM   #38
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I really don't think push tests should be like a weight lifting contest. I think it's for monitoring my own progress. Most important for me is that I'm a lot better now than when I started. (I haven't done such a test when I started so I have no numbers to support that, though.)
Anyway, I'm still very low level. Is it too far fetched that I could increase my limit to 20 kgs (45 lbs) by training a few years more?
Hey Dave. I'll see if I can round up a bathroom scale and give it a go.

I think this above quote is also very good. And probably where many internal people are working. It's not so much that you can produce the most force, it's simply a litmus to see progress.

Where I think the Aikido internal people have gone astray lately, is they are starting to believe that their is something very unique about the way 'internal' uses the body. I don't find this to be true. I do find that there are many unique methods of training in 'internal' that are quite useful for learning to organize your body. But the end result, whether you take the "traditional" internal path, or a modern athletic approach is much the same.

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Old 02-01-2013, 12:17 PM   #39
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

You can find videos of pushout, or other exercises pushes by people trying their darnedest to push people over while standing with both feet parallel. Ark does his pinky throwing demo too with either the feet parallel or a very shallow stance. None the less, to make these things work, you can't rely on structure, nor can you push back. If you push back you fall over, if you lean, your opponent can let go and you fall forwards.

The challenge becomes, how do you get that power back into the other guy when exerting any power of your own makes you fail? I've laid out enough of the logic for the astute reader to figure out a couple of things which are required to do it properly.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:20 PM   #40
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Where I think the Aikido internal people have gone astray lately, is they are starting to believe that their is something very unique about the way 'internal' uses the body. I don't find this to be true. I do find that there are many unique methods of training in 'internal' that are quite useful for learning to organize your body. But the end result, whether you take the "traditional" internal path, or a modern athletic approach is much the same.
Chris,

How do you recreate the effects associated with internals without windup, big rotations, explosive power or better timing?

Also you did say that had some challenges figuring out how to move the arm in the way I wrote about. Assuming that I'm not lying about moving that way , would you consider that being at least one possible way that movement is different?
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:02 PM   #41
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post

Where I think the Aikido internal people have gone astray lately, is they are starting to believe that their is something very unique about the way 'internal' uses the body. I don't find this to be true. I do find that there are many unique methods of training in 'internal' that are quite useful for learning to organize your body. But the end result, whether you take the "traditional" internal path, or a modern athletic approach is much the same.
Chris, nobody has said that, and nobody will say that. Everybody has the same basic body, that works the same way, everybody knows this.

That doesn't mean that everybody uses things the same way. Put a football player and a ballet dancer together and they'll move completely differently. There are things that one does that the other can't, not with a lot of conditioning and/or training. They're just different.

Internals just use a different method of moving and conditioning. At some point, I suppose, you could say it's all "athletics" (which really hasn't been defined either), because everybody's using the same body, but that doesn't mean that someone training in "athletics" can get to the same place as someone using the other methods, or that they even understand the other methods.

Since you, yourself, say that there are "many unique methods" in internals, what's the point here?

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:03 PM   #42
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post

Chris,

How do you recreate the effects associated with internals without windup, big rotations, explosive power or better timing?
Without a specific, I'm not sure what you're asking. I can do "no inch punching" (much to the chagrin of my students), strike hard in limited distance, push hard from odd positions and the like. Nothing I can do is out of the scope of modern athletics (and if I showed modern pro athletes how to do these things, they could probably do them much better then I can right away). I am not baffled by anything that I've seen in 'internal' demos in the last several years (not to say that before I understood what was going on that I wasn't). But I also studied internal with a very good teacher, so that's not much of a surprise.

Quote:
Also you did say that had some challenges figuring out how to move the arm in the way I wrote about. Assuming that I'm not lying about moving that way , would you consider that being at least one possible way that movement is different?
Wait, did you flex your deltoid? If your deltoid was not in contraction when you raised your arm, you are correct, I cannot do that. And in fact I would have no explanation for that. But I believe you said that your deltoid was making a contraction.

I have no difficulty raising my arm without tensing my trapezius. I believe that is what you were showing as poor movement in your video, and I agree with that.

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:14 PM   #43
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post

Since you, yourself, say that there are "many unique methods" in internals, what's the point here?

Best,

Chris
If we took a college athlete (someone who plays sports). And had him try and solve the same physical problems that an internal person was presenting- he would solve the problems in the same way as the internal person. Without having to study 'internal'.

That is the distinction I am making. The end result, and the way to people achieve it- internal or athlete will be the same.

Athletics is the word I use to describe western studies of body use. These are mostly oriented around sports, but have much application beyond that. These studies are just as sophisticated- if not more so, then traditional Chinese methods.

The real reason for all of this is to help people realize that when you study Aikido, you are simply using your body efficiently. Understanding how the body works is available to all. You don't have to see a special teacher, or believe a special faith, your local football coach has a pretty good idea about proper body use. What is unique about internal is the way they teach these things, but not the end result they produce.

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Old 02-01-2013, 01:30 PM   #44
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we took a college athlete (someone who plays sports). And had him try and solve the same physical problems that an internal person was presenting- he would solve the problems in the same way as the internal person. Without having to study 'internal'.
Except that they wouldn't, at all. Go back to my Lebron James example. 100% certainty that he would respond exactly as I indicated as "typical", not "internal".

Last edited by chillzATL : 02-01-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:29 PM   #45
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we took a college athlete (someone who plays sports). And had him try and solve the same physical problems that an internal person was presenting- he would solve the problems in the same way as the internal person. Without having to study 'internal'.
The thing is - they don't (figure it out, that is).

I haven't seen anybody, physically talented or not, figure this out in a conventional way. OTOH, there are a number of people around teaching who have figured it out the "regular" way.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #46
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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The thing is - they don't (figure it out, that is).

I haven't seen anybody, physically talented or not, figure this out in a conventional way. OTOH, there are a number of people around teaching who have figured it out the "regular" way.

Best,

Chris
There are all sorts of IS skills out there, some of which can be achieved through athleticism, but have drawbacks.

Here is a short and non-comphrehensive list of IS skills
getting under without physically dropping
unbalancing on physical contact (doesn't require a strike, windup etc)
lack of feedback on contact or when waza is performed
able to generate power from very weak positions without the benefit of structural alignment
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:39 PM   #47
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Frankly, I can't tell the difference between ki and intent, except intent is less woo so maybe more acceptable to people who have burned out on ki.

Ron, I think the points you're making about working with bent arms here, and earlier when you pointed out that Chris H's first block man diagram was best for resisting a push, are very deep.
Hugh, you must be relatively advanced in internal training from what I can see.

But…frankly, if you could make this distinction, may be, that would a big leap forward for you, don't you think?

Quote:
So how come if you push a car, you don't align your bones? Elbows, knees, hips are all bent to some degree. Why is this the most efficient way? After all, pushing a car is just the reverse problem of being pushed by a car.
Have you ever been pushed by a car? If so, you would know, that this has nothing in common with two living beings, pushing each other.

Best,

Bernd

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Old 02-01-2013, 05:29 PM   #48
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The thing is - they don't (figure it out, that is).

I haven't seen anybody, physically talented or not, figure this out in a conventional way. OTOH, there are a number of people around teaching who have figured it out the "regular" way.

Best,

Chris
From looking at the idea of resisting a push for the last few days, I can't see how 'internal' people would resist a push any differently than an athlete would.

I'm sure if we keep examining things, we'll find out, at least in the realms of body movement, 'internal' people aren't doing anything significantly different than athletes would, given the same task (lifting, pulling, pushing, hitting, moving).

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Old 02-01-2013, 05:42 PM   #49
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
From looking at the idea of resisting a push for the last few days, I can't see how 'internal' people would resist a push any differently than an athlete would.

I'm sure if we keep examining things, we'll find out, at least in the realms of body movement, 'internal' people aren't doing anything significantly different than athletes would, given the same task (lifting, pulling, pushing, hitting, moving).
A "few days" and you're already "sure"?

Well, good luck with that.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-01-2013, 06:02 PM   #50
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
From looking at the idea of resisting a push for the last few days, I can't see how 'internal' people would resist a push any differently than an athlete would.

I'm sure if we keep examining things, we'll find out, at least in the realms of body movement, 'internal' people aren't doing anything significantly different than athletes would, given the same task (lifting, pulling, pushing, hitting, moving).
So, do you think, Ueshiba Morihei just anticipated modern athletics?

How do you explain his comparatively high success rate at higher age, or the fact that early aikidoka often got better despite them growing older, in view of the fact that normal athletes for the most part often have to retire relatively early in their lives?
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