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Old 12-04-2012, 12:10 AM   #301
James Sawers
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I first started talking to Dan about this stuff over the internet some fifteen years ago. Thankfullly, I finally got to meet him.

Best,

Chris
Thanks, Chris....
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:12 AM   #302
ChrisMoses
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I have a Physics degree with a minor in Mathematics (specializing in applied Maths). I also went back to school years later intending to go into Physical Therapy and completed all of the prereqs for a DPT, including over 400 hours volunteering in clinics and observing treatment. I have hands on experience with Akuzawa and Dan. I'm in a pretty good position to see the truth/usefulness of what Eric has offered over the years. Personally I don't find it even slightly useful. *Even if he was exactly right in what he says* it would not help you be able to accomplish these things because it's just not about applying a model to an interaction, it's about changing how your body is and functions. You can't do that without putting in the work and his descriptions of what might be happening, don't tell you what to do to change yourself. Given my own background I could not come up with a better model to *teach* these things than what I have been shown. Further I cannot imagine someone who did not have these skills deeply and functionally being able to even offer an explanation for what's in fact happening. It's just absurd to even think of. Like a third grader explaining Diff EQ to Hawking...

Chris Moses
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:59 AM   #303
yugen
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Given my own background I could not come up with a better model to *teach* these things than what I have been shown.
Excellent post Chris. After just experiencing my third seminar with Dan and seeing how he removes a little more onion layer for you each time with his training exercises, I know more so now that its time for me to post less and sweat thru more committed practice!

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
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Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:03 AM   #304
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I have a Physics degree with a minor in Mathematics (specializing in applied Maths). I also went back to school years later intending to go into Physical Therapy and completed all of the prereqs for a DPT, including over 400 hours volunteering in clinics and observing treatment. I have hands on experience with Akuzawa and Dan. I'm in a pretty good position to see the truth/usefulness of what Eric has offered over the years. Personally I don't find it even slightly useful. *Even if he was exactly right in what he says* it would not help you be able to accomplish these things because it's just not about applying a model to an interaction, it's about changing how your body is and functions. You can't do that without putting in the work and his descriptions of what might be happening, don't tell you what to do to change yourself. Given my own background I could not come up with a better model to *teach* these things than what I have been shown. Further I cannot imagine someone who did not have these skills deeply and functionally being able to even offer an explanation for what's in fact happening. It's just absurd to even think of. Like a third grader explaining Diff EQ to Hawking...
Quote:
Excellent post Chris. After just experiencing my third seminar with Dan and seeing how he removes a little more onion layer for you each time with his training exercises, I know more so now that its time for me to post less and sweat thru more committed practice!
Ryan
Interesting isn't it?
Lets look at their arguments

Accusations
1. You can describe and model it. You are just being cagey and only want to make money, so you refuse.
2. You are a fraud and there is nothing different in what you do.
3. You're not intelligent enough to model what you are doing.

On going statements and real world testing
1. "We all feel the same and are operating with the same body parts so everything is the same."
2. This has been proven NOT to be true by thousands of testimonies. These testimonies by their seniors....GO unanswered and ignored. Those testimonies by seniors teachers and professionals; I train Martial art teachers and students from many different arts, who are Doctors, Nurses, Physical therapists, Chiropractors, Massage therapists, and all manner of other body workers...Physicists, Engineers, Architects etc. And yet none of them, not one of them, (and no one arguing against this training matches their qualifications) can do anything any better then any one else by knowing either the body parts or the mechanics involved.

Methods
No one I know or have heard of who HAS unusual power and aiki uses the modern methods based on mechanics to train muscles as described by the people who feel normal. Every one of them uses older models from Asia, involving mind body control (through training intent to change the body) utilizing unusual metaphors and descriptive visualization. In fact, to a man they reject the modern methods.

Results
It is interesting that the physics and mechanics and western medicine crowd all want and demand, an explanation that they can relate to. Why? They, tell me, that its the only way to produce better results.
Yet for all of their understanding they fail to accept a tried and true scientific method: observe.
They have produced no comparative results!
As I have said to Eric and others who write endlessly trying to model this training and telling me they knows what this work is about:
All of your methods produced....you.
All of the older methods we use produced.......us.
If you knew what we were doing, you wouldn't feel like you do and you would have people coming from all over to train with you. The reason you don't, is that you feel like everyone else! What evidence do you have that you understand anything we are saying?
None!

Observations on Aiki and clashing of forces
If no forces intersect by action or intent there is no aiki? Right? No.
Either person can have aiki ...just standing there.
Ueshiba stated it over and over. Aiki is opposing forces (in you). And once again he was stating an ancient model that budo people I have met have no demonstrable understanding of. Yin and Yang in your own body before contact. Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me.

I stand in rooms and offer a hand and have someone push on it. I barely move, if at all. Everyone just saw me do it at Aikido Eastside. I then do two different things that look EXACTLY the same. One leaves their power to come into me, the other they are off-balanced with their push. To any observer I made no change. But, in the first demonstration I used my arm like everyone else I meet. In the second, I changed my body organization on the inside to produce different results on the outside.
From the looks of it...I clashed with them! And yet they were off-balanced by aiki. First, by aiki within me, secondly by aiki on contact.

Hands on Keyboard, or hands on people
If Ueshiba and Takeda were alive today, the "debaters" would be cranking up their keyboards to challenge their understanding and teaching models,too!!
There is one inescapable outcome that most avoid.
Your understanding is in your own hands!
Can you stand in open rooms, sometimes hostile rooms, and demonstrate unusual power and skill among a group of professionals, across a broad spectrum of arts, and from around the world. Yes or no?
If not, why not?
What does that really say about what you truly understand
As opposed to what you claim to understand?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-04-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:39 AM   #305
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Eric,

I am an acupuncturist and manual therapist who specializes in pain, orthopedic problems, and myofascial trigger points, both in my private practice and in my position as an educator.

With a few exceptions, italicized parts are from your post (I'm too lazy to break it up with the quote function).

Myofascia, a form of "smooth muscle" tissues (like the uterus)

Myofascia is not a form of smooth muscle like the uterus, the intestines, or the heart.

Myofascia is a term used to describe the entire muscular and fascial system of the body, and in clinical literature is usually referring to skeletal muscle, not smooth muscle, because patients come in with problems stemming from skeletal muscle issues. The term was created when people who deal with muscular pain and postural problems started realizing that talking about the muscles in isolation from their surrounding connective tissue matrix didn't make much sense, so instead of talking about just "muscles" they started talking about "myofascia". "Myo" means muscle, so the term means "muscles plus fascia". "Myofascial bundle" is a term that describes a particular bundle of skeletal muscle with its surrounding (and interpenetrating) fascia.

are affected by certain hormones and by certain mechanical factors. (Notably, they are immune to adrenaline/epinephrine.) But they are contracted by oxytocin (the "loving protection' hormone), by inflammation hormones (histamine) -- and more particularly for our purposes, by repetitive mechanical stress and vibrations, as anyone knows who has experienced clenched hands on a yard tool like a shovel or rake used repetitively. These first two effects provide increased structural integrity -- and in the second case, aids limb immobilization when injured. The latter mechanical observation however is more subtle. Local twitch response is a spinal reflex, like flexor/extensor reflexes. When it is problematic, it is implicated in myofascial trigger points -- which frequently have a postural cause -- a disruption of normal stable structure to which the body responds by excessively activating myofascial bundles -- which shows that they are intimately concerned wiht posture -- i.e.-- structural stability.

You are conflating smooth muscle and myofascial trigger points. Smooth muscle has receptors for things like oxytocin and histamine, but trigger points are a completely separate phenomena. This is the definition of a myofascial trigger point:

- A hyperirritable node located within a palpable, taut band of skeletal muscle. It is tender to palpation, and can refer pain or other symptoms in a recognizable pattern.

There are some types of trigger points that fall outside of this definition, such as those that occur in tendons or ligaments (and therefore are not in a palpable band of skeletal muscle), and some might, I guess, in theory, occur within smooth muscle, although I've never come across that discussed in the literature. And even if they do, that has nothing to do with the argument you are trying to make.

Note that trigger points are *not* an inflammatory phenomenon, and their formation is independent of histamines (and certainly have nothing to do with oxytocin). There are many biomechanical, nutritional, endocrine, and other causes of trigger points, but those are not some of them.

The most recent discussions of fascial contractablility note that it seems to be able to contract in a smooth muscle-like manner. But fascia is not smooth muscle, and the myofascial trigger points that researchers and therapists are talking about in the literature are not smooth muscle phenomena.

Local twitch response is also seen in what the literature describes as physically "strumming" a tautened muscle bundle. Vibrations thus have physiological effects on reflexive action and the myofascial tissues which strengthen structure.

Local twitch response is what sometimes happens when a trigger point is stimulated, usually by applying direct pressure to it and very commonly by inserting a needle into it. It has nothing to do with "vibrations"; what they mean when they say "strumming" is squeezing the taut band of muscle between your thumb and fingers and letting it snap through them, not rhythmically vibrating it like a guitar string. The significance of strumming is the sudden application of pressure to the trigger point. It has nothing to do with vibrations.

I don't know enough about physics to critique your application of physical models to aikido, but I know myofascial trigger points. If you want your theories to be more accepted, you should stop cherry-picking words and phrases that sound impressive but that you don't really understand to bolster your arguments. Unless you are doing it purposefully to get attention from people like me who then feel compelled to post in response to you. If so, bravo! Mission accomplished!

Josh
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:50 PM   #306
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
Myofascia, a form of "smooth muscle" tissues (like the uterus)

Myofascia is not a form of smooth muscle like the uterus, the intestines, or the heart.
Myofascia is a term used to describe the entire muscular and fascial system of the body, and in clinical literature is usually referring to skeletal muscle, not smooth muscle,...
When I use the term I mean to distinguish the contractile connective tissue forming a matrix around other tissues-- including all muscle fiber bundles -- where it is dubbed myo-fascia. The clinical use of the term to refer to the complex formed with the muscle fiber bundles should not cause difficulty with the basic understanding of the anatomy of the fascia as different from the tissues it forms and envelope, such as muscle fiber bundles.

Quote:
The most recent discussions of fascial contractablility note that it seems to be able to contract in a smooth muscle-like manner.
We are in agreement. The fascia -- considered in isolation from the striated muscles it envelops -- acts like smooth muscle -- oxytocin-responsive and all.
Quote:
But fascia is not smooth muscle, ...
Considered in isolation -- if it is not a form of smooth muscle tissue-- what would you call it ? As to its being or behaving as smooth muscle tissue it is a distinction without a difference. I am less interested in names than behaviors. Walk like a duck. Quack like a duck. Not a dog, cat or chicken. Small goose, maybe -- waterfowl, definitely.

Quote:
... and the myofascial trigger points that researchers and therapists are talking about in the literature are not smooth muscle phenomena.
That is not established -- though it is plainly a complex of tissues involved -- the contribution of the smooth muscle behavior of the fascia to the problem is not ruled out. The complex interaction with the muscle tissue proper and reflexive systems give rise to the documented behaviors or effects that I take interest in for our subject matter -- but on the points of influence that seem to control in those issues -- also seem to have relevance to the trigger point phenomenon from the same suite of causes.

Quote:
You are conflating smooth muscle and myofascial trigger points.
No, I am distinguishing them anatomically whereas you conflate them clinically -- which is just fine for clinical use.

Quote:
Smooth muscle has receptors for things like oxytocin and histamine, ...
The striated muscle tissues interleave with the fascia -- which has this smooth-muscle behavior -- including the hormonal sensitivities -- which we apparently agree on -- (plus the study noted above).

Quote:
... but trigger points are a completely separate phenomena.
That is not established. Perhaps, perhaps not. The complex interrelation and the undeniable postural source of most myofascial pain indicates a connection between adverse structural position and dynamic compensations that may overstimulate tissues. The positional fixation combined with the underlying tonic vibration or stress oscillation involved in stayinhg dynamically stable in such a bad posture -- that is exactly like hand-clenching from repetitive grip stress of a tool, but just occurring in and shortening sections of the muscle tissues (possibly from the Cinderella effect) rather than the gross shortening of the forearm muscles that clench the hands involuntarily. These connections are plain and highly suggestive and have not been ruled out.

Quote:
This is the definition of a myofascial trigger point:

- A hyperirritable node located within a palpable, taut band of skeletal muscle. It is tender to palpation, and can refer pain or other symptoms in a recognizable pattern.

There are some types of trigger points that fall outside of this definition, such as those that occur in tendons or ligaments (and therefore are not in a palpable band of skeletal muscle),
... It is interesting that we can observe the "trigger point" conditions stemming from fascia not enveloping muscle. All tendons also have a fascial matrix that is not readily distinguishable from that of the muscle tissues to which they connect -- by means of that fascia. Fasica is in a sense the substrate of both . That logically suggests that it is the common tissue -- the fascia -- that is the predominating element in trigger points.

Moreover, the afferent effect of the pathological myofascial bundle in the local twitch response spinal reflex -- suggests that there is a relationship between these as pathological examples of structures with similar reflexive behavior and triggers that arise in normal development (like muscle spindles for the stretch reflex and its inverse reflex mediated by Golgi tendon organs) These spinal reflexes are of great interest and application to our subject matter - I use them -- and provoke them in people all the time.

Quote:
Note that trigger points are *not* an inflammatory phenomenon, and their formation is independent of histamines (and certainly have nothing to do with oxytocin).
We are in agreement and I did not say they were -- it is simply that those are differential identifying criteria for a tissue that behaves like smooth muscle ...

Quote:
There are many biomechanical, nutritional, endocrine, and other causes of trigger points, but those are not some of them.
It is the biomechanicals effects and causes that are of interest -- but in the context of considering fascia in martial applications Ueshiba's sense of budo as "love" and the "spirit of loving protection" to ignore the involvement of oxytocin -- the love hormone -- is to ignore some obvious evidence or directions for inquiry from a seemingly knowledgeable source.

Quote:
Local twitch response is what sometimes happens when a trigger point is stimulated, usually by applying direct pressure to it and very commonly by inserting a needle into it. It has nothing to do with "vibrations"; what they mean when they say "strumming" is squeezing the taut band of muscle between your thumb and fingers and letting it snap through them, not rhythmically vibrating it like a guitar string.
IOW -- you just described plucking it like a fat guitar string. It is the effective influence of the resulting vibration on the systems in question that are of interest and the local twitch response is one more among the spinal reflexes that are mediated by such methods of striking, plucking or vibrating in another way. They do -- interesting -- things to people.

Quote:
The significance of strumming is the sudden application of pressure to the trigger point. It has nothing to do with vibrations.
Pressure versus vibration. Since vibration is useful in such therapeutic massage or manipulations -- as is pressure -- and since vibration in tissue is just an oscillation of pressure-- I am not sure the distinction is that significant.

FWIW -- and in appreciation of this post -- it is worth commenting that this is the kind of engagement by which things can advance usefully. In budo, debate should be like training -- quite pointed, -- challenging, skeptical, but unmistakably polite and relating relevant information directly and carefully to the points put forward. It is much better than people simply comparing the intellectual equivalents of their martial style badges or belt colors as though those proved or disproved anything on what really matters.

Many thanks, Josh.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:19 PM   #307
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

You can choose to reply or not but, how does the SIMPLE question of , "Is aikido a clash of forces" turn into a battle between alleged Einsteins and Hawkins of martial arts. Or how the language you are using helps to clarify a question where a simple yes or no will suffice? Also and if a yes or no, state because, "in my personal experience so and so has happened". Not try to compare the human body to pair of 'scissors" or other "mechanical" paradigm, but human to human( and alive human to human would be best, and if not someone who actually felt the no longer present party and can make a comparison, just like Ellis Amdur's "it had to be felt" prerequisites). You know apples to apples, and then why does this apple stand out for a mysterious reason. I think this thread would be better served.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
When I use the term I mean to distinguish the contractile connective tissue forming a matrix around other tissues-- including all muscle fiber bundles -- where it is dubbed myo-fascia. The clinical use of the term to refer to the complex formed with the muscle fiber bundles should not cause difficulty with the basic understanding of the anatomy of the fascia as different from the tissues it forms and envelope, such as muscle fiber bundles.

We are in agreement. The fascia -- considered in isolation from the striated muscles it envelops -- acts like smooth muscle -- oxytocin-responsive and all.

Considered in isolation -- if it is not a form of smooth muscle tissue-- what would you call it ? As to its being or behaving as smooth muscle tissue it is a distinction without a difference. I am less interested in names than behaviors. Walk like a duck. Quack like a duck. Not a dog, cat or chicken. Small goose, maybe -- waterfowl, definitely.

That is not established -- though it is plainly a complex of tissues involved -- the contribution of the smooth muscle behavior of the fascia to the problem is not ruled out. The complex interaction with the muscle tissue proper and reflexive systems give rise to the documented behaviors or effects that I take interest in for our subject matter -- but on the points of influence that seem to control in those issues -- also seem to have relevance to the trigger point phenomenon from the same suite of causes.

No, I am distinguishing them anatomically whereas you conflate them clinically -- which is just fine for clinical use.

The striated muscle tissues interleave with the fascia -- which has this smooth-muscle behavior -- including the hormonal sensitivities -- which we apparently agree on -- (plus the study noted above).

That is not established. Perhaps, perhaps not. The complex interrelation and the undeniable postural source of most myofascial pain indicates a connection between adverse structural position and dynamic compensations that may overstimulate tissues. The positional fixation combined with the underlying tonic vibration or stress oscillation involved in stayinhg dynamically stable in such a bad posture -- that is exactly like hand-clenching from repetitive grip stress of a tool, but just occurring in and shortening sections of the muscle tissues (possibly from the Cinderella effect) rather than the gross shortening of the forearm muscles that clench the hands involuntarily. These connections are plain and highly suggestive and have not been ruled out.

... It is interesting that we can observe the "trigger point" conditions stemming from fascia not enveloping muscle. All tendons also have a fascial matrix that is not readily distinguishable from that of the muscle tissues to which they connect -- by means of that fascia. Fasica is in a sense the substrate of both . That logically suggests that it is the common tissue -- the fascia -- that is the predominating element in trigger points.

Moreover, the afferent effect of the pathological myofascial bundle in the local twitch response spinal reflex -- suggests that there is a relationship between these as pathological examples of structures with similar reflexive behavior and triggers that arise in normal development (like muscle spindles for the stretch reflex and its inverse reflex mediated by Golgi tendon organs) These spinal reflexes are of great interest and application to our subject matter - I use them -- and provoke them in people all the time.

We are in agreement and I did not say they were -- it is simply that those are differential identifying criteria for a tissue that behaves like smooth muscle ...

It is the biomechanicals effects and causes that are of interest -- but in the context of considering fascia in martial applications Ueshiba's sense of budo as "love" and the "spirit of loving protection" to ignore the involvement of oxytocin -- the love hormone -- is to ignore some obvious evidence or directions for inquiry from a seemingly knowledgeable source.

IOW -- you just described plucking it like a fat guitar string. It is the effective influence of the resulting vibration on the systems in question that are of interest and the local twitch response is one more among the spinal reflexes that are mediated by such methods of striking, plucking or vibrating in another way. They do -- interesting -- things to people.

Pressure versus vibration. Since vibration is useful in such therapeutic massage or manipulations -- as is pressure -- and since vibration in tissue is just an oscillation of pressure-- I am not sure the distinction is that significant.

FWIW -- and in appreciation of this post -- it is worth commenting that this is the kind of engagement by which things can advance usefully. In budo, debate should be like training -- quite pointed, -- challenging, skeptical, but unmistakably polite and relating relevant information directly and carefully to the points put forward. It is much better than people simply comparing the intellectual equivalents of their martial style badges or belt colors as though those proved or disproved anything on what really matters.

Many thanks, Josh.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:21 PM   #308
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hi Eric,

I don't have time to address every point you've brought up, so I will only address the main ones of yours that I was refuting. And I will also attempt to put together your assertions in a logical structure, because I'm having trouble following them. I will also use the abbreviation LTR for localized twitch response.

That is not established -- (referring to my statement that the myofascial trigger points that researchers and therapists are talking about in the literature are not smooth muscle phenomena.) though it is plainly a complex of tissues involved -- the contribution of the smooth muscle behavior of the fascia to the problem is not ruled out.

If you are talking about myofascial trigger points that can undergo LTR, it is absolutely well established. Those trigger points are localized contractions of sarcomeres in skeletal muscle. There is a very clear electron microscope image of trigger points that usually shows up in the literature, and although I couldn't find the specific image I'm thinking of online, here is a variation -
http://home.earthlink.net/~sports-therapy/may14.htm

The localized twitch response is a further contraction of the skeletal muscle fibers when the trigger point is stimulated, after which the knots are relaxed because the micro-contractions have released. The most current and accepted theory about the formation of trigger points that I am aware of has to do with damage to the sarcomeres and Ca++ pump and the ensuing shortage of ATP. You can google "energy crisis theory" for more details.

Now, in terms of what causes them - sure, tight fascia that causes the skeletal muscles fibers to be overworked and damaged is a causative factor. So are lots of other similar things like scar tissue, emotional stress, vitamin deficiencies, hypoglycemia and other endocrine disorders. So in terms of things that are contributing to the problem, the smooth muscle-like contractibility of the fascia that tightens it is certainly not ruled out and can be an aspect of the problem. But if you are talking about trigger points that can have a localized twitch response, tight fascia is not the trigger point.

The complex interrelation and the undeniable postural source of most myofascial pain indicates a connection between adverse structural position and dynamic compensations that may overstimulate tissues. The positional fixation combined with the underlying tonic vibration or stress oscillation involved in stayinhg dynamically stable in such a bad posture -- that is exactly like hand-clenching from repetitive grip stress of a tool, but just occurring in and shortening sections of the muscle tissues (possibly from the Cinderella effect) rather than the gross shortening of the forearm muscles that clench the hands involuntarily. These connections are plain and highly suggestive and have not been ruled out.

The mechanical issues you are talking about - poor posture, keeping the hand in a clenched position - have to do with how skeletal muscle reacts to eccentric or isometric contractions and not to vibrations or stress oscillations. It can happen in response to oscillations but it can just as easily happen without them. The problem with postural distortions is that they involve chronic low-level muscle contractions which overuse the earliest-recruited muscle fibers (since later-recruited fibers never get the chance to fire without a full contraction) and which cause excess intramuscular pressure to build up, leading to localized hypoxia and ischemia.

If I sit in meditation for two hours with my head slightly forward, without moving at all, the constant low level contraction of various fibers in muscles like the trapezius will cause the formation of trigger points without any need for oscillations or vibrations.

The striated muscle tissues interleave with the fascia -- which has this smooth-muscle behavior -- including the hormonal sensitivities -- which we apparently agree on -- (plus the study noted above).
(snip)
It is the biomechanicals effects and causes that are of interest -- but in the context of considering fascia in martial applications Ueshiba's sense of budo as "love" and the "spirit of loving protection" to ignore the involvement of oxytocin -- the love hormone -- is to ignore some obvious evidence or directions for inquiry from a seemingly knowledgeable source.

Following your logic -

Practice aikido >
Develop feelings of "loving protection" >
production of oxytocin >
stimulates smooth muscle-like aspect of fascia >
fascia tightens >
develop Ueshiba's level of martial efficacy (and develop trigger points, I guess?)

If I add up all of the individual statements you are making, that is the only conclusion I can come to about what you are saying. To which I really just have no response.

IOW -- you just described plucking it like a fat guitar string. It is the effective influence of the resulting vibration on the systems in question that are of interest and the local twitch response is one more among the spinal reflexes that are mediated by such methods of striking, plucking or vibrating in another way. They do -- interesting -- things to people.

Pressure versus vibration. Since vibration is useful in such therapeutic massage or manipulations -- as is pressure -- and since vibration in tissue is just an oscillation of pressure-- I am not sure the distinction is that significant.

No, it is not the influence of the vibration on the system, and yes, the distinction is very significant.

Sure, it is a spinal reflex like the stretch reflex. But you are talking about the LTR as it occurs in trigger points that are "strummed", and I repeat that your ideas about vibration and oscillation are extraneous to the subject.

I get LTR in patients all the time by slowly holding a muscle with constant pressure or by inserting a needle into it, with no vibration or oscillation of any kind. With manual pressure, the twitch often doesn't occur for ten seconds or up to a minute or two. The fact that vibration can relax muscles and tight fascia is a separate issue. I have many manual vibrating techniques that I also use with patients, and sure, they are very effective for relaxing tight muscles and connective tissues, realigning structures and even relaxing people emotionally. And with thousands of treatments using these techniques, I've never felt an LTR when using them.

And with that, I have expended my available time and energy resources for this topic. Carry on.

Josh
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #309
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Josh, just want to say you are right - this RN would NEVER equate skeletal muscle OR fascia with "smooth muscle." Most of the trigger points I experience + see/feel in others are due to chronic contraction of skeletal muscles creating the shortened sarcomeres, and the releases involve pressure/release, NOT vibration.
Accuracy counts.

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:04 PM   #310
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Baaa...here comes the herd mentality again. If you don't talk about this in a certain way you can't talk about it without the herd coming out saying all the same rhetoric again.....baaaaaaaa!
Ouch, Mary!! That sort of prejudicial mindset defies reasonable discussion. Think of how dismissive your post is to scores of shihan, 6th dan and 5th dans Who have extensive budo backgrounds. There is no way...no way... you are going to get all of these independent people to have herd mentality over their training.

I imagine that as more round earthers came on the scene; flat earthers could have accused the new thinkers as having herd mentality.
There are times when there is right and wrong, Mary. And the empirical results are coming in year after year, shihan after shihan, teacher after teacher. Along with the empirical testing, we now have better translations from Ueshiba and others that place the teaching of this material in context on a global scale. Look at it this way...Ueshiba was right after all!!

As Bill Gleason (and a growing cadre of teachers around the world agree) says "This...is...Aikido." It takes quite a bit of doing to consistently change the mind of so many jaded 40 plus year experienced teachers, but there ya go. Flat earth/round earth...from better information.

I say to those with offering biomechanics, physics as training methods......Prove it!
We certainly had to, and did.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-04-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:29 PM   #311
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Baaa...here comes the herd mentality again. If you don't talk about this in a certain way you can't talk about it without the herd coming out saying all the same rhetoric again.....baaaaaaaa!
Black Sheep, Blind Sheep

Trying to Stand Tall,

Blind Sheep, Black Sheep

Baaa!!! Some will Fall...!!! ;0)

Enjoy,

ChrisW
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:13 PM   #312
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Baaa...here comes the herd mentality again. If you don't talk about this in a certain way you can't talk about it without the herd coming out saying all the same rhetoric again.....baaaaaaaa!
It is not "herd mentality" when there is a commonly accepted set of terms which describe something, this terminology goes back two thousand years and crosses a number of cultures and languages, and folks who understand what these terms mean can have common discussion. Then folks come along, trying to describe the same things and use completely different terms or, use the same terms but differently... And then, they use terms with precise definitions i terms of anatomy and use them differently than the accepted usage. Well, that makes discussion virtually impossible.

Which is why I keep saying these discussions are largely a waste of time. You have a bunch of folks who have done a certain type of work and have learned the generally accepted terminology. This allows them to speak to each other. You have another group of people who have not done that kind of work, do not share the terminology and use language to describe what they do. I don't have a problem with that per se but those people cannot then go to the larger community and have meaningful discussion because when they try non one knows what they mean or, as often happens, you suspect you do know, but it just reveals that they don't have a clue.

When a group of people know what they are talking about, and a perhaps much larger group which doesn't, end up arguing about something. I fail to see how it is "herd mentality" for the folks who do know and do understand to point out the errors in someone's thinking when they voluntarily entered into such a discussion. No one here is "dojo busting", showing up on your doorstep and showing you up in front of your students. No one here is following people around the Internet, bashing anyone's skills on their Facebook page, posting critical messages on their Google+ profile, un-endorsing anyone for lack of skills on LinkedIn. It is anyone's choice to engage in discussions. Doing so pretty much means that you have to deal with it when a large group of folks decides you are wrong. When I personally posted a few things over the years that a majority of responders disagreed with I had to decide whether I was in fat wrong or they disagreed but I didn't care. But I didn't tell them that they were exhibiting "herd" mentality. I had to concede that the number of folks who disagreed with me in itself was an indicator that I was probably wrong. When I see and directly experience the quality of the folks you are lumping into the "herd" and know for myself just how qualified they are and I can see and directly experience any number of other folks, I have to say I weight the responses differently. Not everyone's opinion carries the same weight. I am sorry but this so-called herd has some of the most talented and brightest folks I know.

One of the reasons that more folks who have a high level of skill do not participate on the forums is the generally low level of the discussions. (There are other reasons too, which have to do with the vituperation and the personalities) The fact that the folks in this so-called "herd" have not simply walked away is interesting in my opinion. I have largely absented myself from the boards lately because the discussions I am interested in largely go nowhere. Some of the folks in the "herd" seem to have more interest in getting folks who don't "get it" to do so. I don't have the energy. It's like arguing about evolution with my born again friend. No amount of factual information will change anything he believes.

It just rankles when someone decides that the opinions of a bunch of folks whom I personally know to understand what they are talking about, several on a level of sophistication that I find awe inspiring, are just part of a "herd" because they have the collective temerity to point out that someone's argument is wrong. Aikido is a really messed up art these days. The amount of wishful thinking that takes place is staggering. I'd like to see that get fixed. Part of that is going to be the process of saying BS when something's BS. Some folks won;t like hearing it. I'm sorry about that. But one of the things that has led to this mess is the idea that we are all ok. Everyone's ideas are valid, everyone's approaches should be respected. I think that's nuts when it comes to Budo. I can really like you, I can respect you as a person, enjoy your company, and still think your Aikido isn't very good. The Aikido I was presented by my teacher had some grounding in reality. It was expected that, if another martial artist of the same experience level as you, walked in the door of your dojo, you could actually handle yourself. I see very few Aikido teachers out there one could say that about. The art is in danger of dying out as a Budo.

While I do actually think that fighting is not the point of training and that the Founder created the art as a practice for spiritual development, I have never understood why many folks think that a shallow understanding of the physical / energetic principles behind the art could possibly yield any kind of depth on the spiritual side. Now, in this instance, I am not saying Erick's understanding of anything is shallow. Quite the opposite... What I am saying is that Erick's terminology is not a step forward. I know something about this stuff and I largely find his explanations largely incomprehensible. Maye it's because I am stupid and he's so smart. But I teach professionally and I think I am quite good at explaining what I am doing and getting others to do it. Erick's reinvention of a new language to talk about this stuff, including using accepted terms in non-accepted ways, might actually work for him. Maybe it's how he really thinks about what he is doing. But I would say that as general practice I wouldn't recommend it. It divorces you from the entire corpus of literature going back hundred and hundreds of years. It divorces you from the entire community of folks who have high skills and already share a common descriptive language for talking about it. And it necessitates spending a good five to ten years teaching others the language so you can start effectively teaching them. Doesn't make sense to me.

I mean Dan H and Mike Sigman don't agree on much of anything in this universe, maybe even multi dimensionally, but they can actually talk to each other and argue using a common language which both understand. Erick can't do that and be understood by anyone but himself. Now maybe folks who aren't technical and don;t already have a descriptive terminology would read Erick's stuff and feel they understand what he's talking about. I suspect that it would mostly be projection if they did, but what the hell. But there's no way for him to talk to the people on the forums who really are doing some hard work on the aiki / internal power development without a constant interruption caused by mutually exclusive use of terminology. And it's certainly not "herd" mentality when the folks who know what they are talking about, and have direct hands on experience with the teachers posting here, point out that "that word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means".

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:14 PM   #313
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

"There is no disappointment so numbing...as someone no better than you achieving more."

Joseph Heller

IMO, some people just don't know when to let things go and just agree to disagree and stay out of each other's way.

Greg
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:42 PM   #314
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
It is not "herd mentality" when there is a commonly accepted set of terms which describe something, this terminology goes back two thousand years and crosses a number of cultures and languages, and folks who understand what these terms mean can have common discussion. Then folks come along, trying to describe the same things and use completely different terms or, use the same terms but differently... And then, they use terms with precise definitions i terms of anatomy and use them differently than the accepted usage. Well, that makes discussion virtually impossible.

Which is why I keep saying these discussions are largely a waste of time. You have a bunch of folks who have done a certain type of work and have learned the generally accepted terminology. This allows them to speak to each other. You have another group of people who have not done that kind of work, do not share the terminology and use language to describe what they do. I don't have a problem with that per se but those people cannot then go to the larger community and have meaningful discussion because when they try non one knows what they mean or, as often happens, you suspect you do know, but it just reveals that they don't have a clue.

When a group of people know what they are talking about, and a perhaps much larger group which doesn't, end up arguing about something. I fail to see how it is "herd mentality" for the folks who do know and do understand to point out the errors in someone's thinking when they voluntarily entered into such a discussion. No one here is "dojo busting", showing up on your doorstep and showing you up in front of your students. No one here is following people around the Internet, bashing anyone's skills on their Facebook page, posting critical messages on their Google+ profile, un-endorsing anyone for lack of skills on LinkedIn. It is anyone's choice to engage in discussions. Doing so pretty much means that you have to deal with it when a large group of folks decides you are wrong. When I personally posted a few things over the years that a majority of responders disagreed with I had to decide whether I was in fat wrong or they disagreed but I didn't care. But I didn't tell them that they were exhibiting "herd" mentality. I had to concede that the number of folks who disagreed with me in itself was an indicator that I was probably wrong. When I see and directly experience the quality of the folks you are lumping into the "herd" and know for myself just how qualified they are and I can see and directly experience any number of other folks, I have to say I weight the responses differently. Not everyone's opinion carries the same weight. I am sorry but this so-called herd has some of the most talented and brightest folks I know.

One of the reasons that more folks who have a high level of skill do not participate on the forums is the generally low level of the discussions. (There are other reasons too, which have to do with the vituperation and the personalities) The fact that the folks in this so-called "herd" have not simply walked away is interesting in my opinion. I have largely absented myself from the boards lately because the discussions I am interested in largely go nowhere. Some of the folks in the "herd" seem to have more interest in getting folks who don't "get it" to do so. I don't have the energy. It's like arguing about evolution with my born again friend. No amount of factual information will change anything he believes.

It just rankles when someone decides that the opinions of a bunch of folks whom I personally know to understand what they are talking about, several on a level of sophistication that I find awe inspiring, are just part of a "herd" because they have the collective temerity to point out that someone's argument is wrong. Aikido is a really messed up art these days. The amount of wishful thinking that takes place is staggering. I'd like to see that get fixed. Part of that is going to be the process of saying BS when something's BS. Some folks won;t like hearing it. I'm sorry about that. But one of the things that has led to this mess is the idea that we are all ok. Everyone's ideas are valid, everyone's approaches should be respected. I think that's nuts when it comes to Budo. I can really like you, I can respect you as a person, enjoy your company, and still think your Aikido isn't very good. The Aikido I was presented by my teacher had some grounding in reality. It was expected that, if another martial artist of the same experience level as you, walked in the door of your dojo, you could actually handle yourself. I see very few Aikido teachers out there one could say that about. The art is in danger of dying out as a Budo.

While I do actually think that fighting is not the point of training and that the Founder created the art as a practice for spiritual development, I have never understood why many folks think that a shallow understanding of the physical / energetic principles behind the art could possibly yield any kind of depth on the spiritual side. Now, in this instance, I am not saying Erick's understanding of anything is shallow. Quite the opposite... What I am saying is that Erick's terminology is not a step forward. I know something about this stuff and I largely find his explanations largely incomprehensible. Maye it's because I am stupid and he's so smart. But I teach professionally and I think I am quite good at explaining what I am doing and getting others to do it. Erick's reinvention of a new language to talk about this stuff, including using accepted terms in non-accepted ways, might actually work for him. Maybe it's how he really thinks about what he is doing. But I would say that as general practice I wouldn't recommend it. It divorces you from the entire corpus of literature going back hundred and hundreds of years. It divorces you from the entire community of folks who have high skills and already share a common descriptive language for talking about it. And it necessitates spending a good five to ten years teaching others the language so you can start effectively teaching them. Doesn't make sense to me.

I mean Dan H and Mike Sigman don't agree on much of anything in this universe, maybe even multi dimensionally, but they can actually talk to each other and argue using a common language which both understand. Erick can't do that and be understood by anyone but himself. Now maybe folks who aren't technical and don;t already have a descriptive terminology would read Erick's stuff and feel they understand what he's talking about. I suspect that it would mostly be projection if they did, but what the hell. But there's no way for him to talk to the people on the forums who really are doing some hard work on the aiki / internal power development without a constant interruption caused by mutually exclusive use of terminology. And it's certainly not "herd" mentality when the folks who know what they are talking about, and have direct hands on experience with the teachers posting here, point out that "that word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means".
What Ledyard Sensei said. And I didn't have any trouble following ....Baaaaaa!!

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:15 PM   #315
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
If you are talking about myofascial trigger points that can undergo LTR, it is absolutely well established. Those trigger points are localized contractions of sarcomeres in skeletal muscle. There is a very clear electron microscope image of trigger points that usually shows up in the literature, and although I couldn't find the specific image I'm thinking of online, here is a variation -
http://home.earthlink.net/~sports-therapy/may14.htmThe localized twitch response is a further contraction of the skeletal muscle fibers when the trigger point is stimulated, after which the knots are relaxed because the micro-contractions have released. The most current and accepted theory about the formation of trigger points that I am aware of has to do with damage to the sarcomeres and Ca++ pump and the ensuing shortage of ATP. You can google "energy crisis theory" for more details.
Given. The tension they create implicates reflex circuits. That may well contribute to the constant afferent stimulation that affects some but not all the fibers -- possibly through the spindles. Activating the reflex may simply disrupt the abberant signal -- or possibly relieve an exhausted synaptic electrolyte threshold caught in a feedback loop. Activating the LTR reflex seems to be important to the effectiveness of needle treatment -- which to me begs the question whether it is the reflex arc stimulation that is the proper target rather than the affected fibers themselves.. And the fact that the treatment involves provoking counter-reflex activity -- implicates a key part of the afferent effect of the golgi tendon reflex -- it inhibits the alpha motor neurons in the target muscle with the trigger points -- removing at least one source of a constant action potential that may keep the trigger points actively contracted.

Quote:
Following your logic -

Practice aikido >
Develop feelings of "loving protection" >
production of oxytocin >
stimulates smooth muscle-like aspect of fascia >
fascia tightens >
develop Ueshiba's level of martial efficacy (and develop trigger points, I guess?)
I have not expressed any such progression -- much less that one-- nor yet concluded whether the involvement of oxytocin on fascia in this context is an operative element, a resultant or signpost effect, or simply a coincidence of association with Ueshiba's religious thought. The Doka don't read that way. It is something not trivially dismissed. However -- the more an more of these connections that I find, I conclude it is less and less likely to be merely the latter.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:28 PM   #316
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Josh, just want to say you are right - this RN would NEVER equate skeletal muscle OR fascia with "smooth muscle." Most of the trigger points I experience + see/feel in others are due to chronic contraction of skeletal muscles creating the shortened sarcomeres, and the releases involve pressure/release, NOT vibration.
Accuracy counts.
Point taken -- but I am not equating them -- I am drawing out the directly related functions -- and the fascia is certainly described like smooth muscle in the literature noted and in others. The point of my examination structurally is that stress (pressure) and vibration are equivalent -- structurally. Moments are just static stresses of potential dynamic rotations. Therefore, the same stability systems respond to them similarly.

As to manipulating flexor and extensor reflexes in the art -- it works both from postural stress (kokyu tanden exercises) or from tekubi furi or furitama application. The former is more subject to voluntary modulation, as these reflexes can be voluntarily modulated, though not eliminated. But the latter (furitama) is more powerful and more immediately destructive of stability- as there is no time to modulate it they just pop or drop, depending. People with a certain kind body tone are notably less susceptible -- but that kind of tone does not help their movement or action, generally.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:44 PM   #317
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Activating the LTR reflex seems to be important to the effectiveness of needle treatment -- which to me begs the question whether it is the reflex arc stimulation that is the proper target rather than the affected fibers themselves..
Just for a data point, needle stimulation does not actually have to produce LTR in order for treatment to be effective, although that has been the standard model until recently. A technique I often use is similar to what is called superficial dry needling, where the needle is inserted very shallowly into the skin above the trigger point, but not into it, and left in for a very short period of time. This PDF mentions the technique on page 6 - http://www.thedryneedlinginstitute.n...y-Needling.pdf
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:48 PM   #318
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Aikido is a really messed up art these days. The amount of wishful thinking that takes place is staggering. I'd like to see that get fixed. Part of that is going to be the process of saying BS when something's BS. Some folks won;t like hearing it. I'm sorry about that. But one of the things that has led to this mess is the idea that we are all ok. Everyone's ideas are valid, everyone's approaches should be respected. I think that's nuts when it comes to Budo... Erick's terminology is not a step forward. I know something about this stuff and I largely find his explanations largely incomprehensible. ... But I teach professionally and I think I am quite good at explaining what I am doing and getting others to do it. a new language to talk about this stuff, ... I would say that as general practice I wouldn't recommend it. It divorces you from the entire corpus of literature going back hundred and hundreds of years. It divorces you from the entire community of folks who have high skills and already share a common descriptive language for talking about it. And it necessitates spending a good five to ten years teaching others the language so you can start effectively teaching them. Doesn't make sense to me.... But there's no way for him to talk to the people on the forums who really are doing some hard work on the aiki / internal power development without a constant interruption caused by mutually exclusive use of terminology.
This is helpful. Forget for a moment anything I have said, and assume for the purpose of this question that it is all completely wrongheaded and even just wrong.

Question: Do you agree or disagree that the art would be advanced by a purely Western understanding of the mechanics and physiology involved, at least as an adjunct to the descriptive terminology in use in the methods of which you approve?

I repeat: I am not concerned with methods on these topics. They have some. They work. I get it. No issue. That is procedural knowledge -- how-to. But if anything is to DEVELOP -- and not just be repeated -- it has to, eventually, become nativized in its current conceptual environment to flourish. Math is procedural knowledge -- but also conceptual knowledge. But developing new mathematical procedures -- new methods -- requires conceptual grasp of the nature of the subject matter and of the operation and relationships between existing methods.

One thing my examination of the concept of Ki in that way revealed to me is that the categories used on either side do not overlay well at all. The concept maps used in the traditional terminology are organized very differently from ours -- and this poor concept mapping between them is a cause of the disconnect.

This is one reason why I think the "technical" types look at the traditional terminology and their practical increase of a grasp of training in those other terms which they can't relate technically -- and have abandoned any thought of trying to fit it within their technical maps. In one sense they are right, they DO NOT fit. Then they look at what I am doing and wonder "why bother?" because they already "know" that it cannot fit.

But they are not actually unintelligible or unrelatable to one another -- but it is like an optical illusion -- the faces/vase image or others -- you first have to trick your perceptual maps to get it. If you read the short dialogue that Ron Ragusa thoughtfully provoked me into to laying out on the nature of KI in our terms you will have some idea of what I am getting at when it comes to terms of reference that are at right angles to what you expect.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:19 AM   #319
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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But if anything is to DEVELOP -- and not just be repeated -- it has to, eventually, become nativized in its current conceptual environment to flourish.
The thing is: That's just what Dan is doing. He's talking about these things in a way that even me, a simple guy without your academic background or any medical expertise, can understand. He's talking about stuff that Ueshiba's closest students didn't get because of lack of a common language. Ueshiba talked about the gods and topics from the Kojiki. His students were youngsters of a different, modern era. Yasuo Kobayashi, among many, has told us that they just wanted Ueshiba to stop talking so they could train - in their version of Aikido...

Dan also provides the methods you need to "get this" from the start. It's not like in schools where you spend 20+ years of training waza and then maybe, if you're one of the few, get it.

So, Dan and others are working hard to show people like myself what Ueshiba was talking about. In a way that we can relate to and understand. As a result, people are gathering, across borders, to practice these things and to talk about it in a common language. He provides a set of terms and explanations that you can use immediately.

I understand it if you have a hard time grasping these concepts from writing. I did, too. When I met Dan, however, all of the things I had read made sense. There is no way you will get this with a purely academic approach. And there is no way you can do it purely physically. It's a mind's game, both physically and mentally.

FWIW - there is nothing wrong with the terminology and methods Dan provides. The challenge lies in the willingness to put in the time and effort required to turn theory into practice.

Now, what was the original question again?

Last edited by renshin : 12-05-2012 at 01:27 AM.

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

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Aikido • Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu • Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:42 AM   #320
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Life and time are precious. There is no other endeavor.... BUT budo.....ths doesn't require real results....... So two hundred pages of physics and mechanics that produces your average Nidan, or a collection of concepts and metaphors in real world training that produces world class power and aiki??
Tick toc
Tick toc
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:44 AM   #321
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Life and time are precious. There is no other endeavor.... BUT budo.....that doesn't require real results....... So two hundred pages of physics and mechanics that produces your average Nidan, or a collection of concepts and metaphors in real world training that produces world class power and aiki??
Tick toc
Tick toc
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:12 AM   #322
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

How do you absorb?
How do you project?
How do you sink?
How do you suppress?
Without big outward movement?
The answer....is.....physics and mechanics, but physics and have no practical training model to get you there. They ALWAYS fail. The Asians had a well developed method using metaphor and solo training. The Asians created the higher level arts.
Hmmmm......
Dan
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:52 AM   #323
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How do you absorb?
How do you project?
How do you sink?
How do you suppress?
Without big outward movement?
The answer....is.....physics and mechanics, but physics and have no practical training model to get you there. They ALWAYS fail. The Asians had a well developed method using metaphor and solo training. The Asians created the higher level arts.
Hmmmm......
Dan
Well there you go. I was going to post that you could have several pages easily on the biological, physical, physiological, mental, chemical, mechanical processes involved in say hitting a baseball. And why a 90 mph fastball appears as big a watermelon to some hitters, but until you go to the batting cage and face a 90 mph fastball your just Bob Costas. A lot may think they are doing aiki or their "version" of it, but it does not explain 1000 strikeouts or the "Babe Ruths" of aiki.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:22 AM   #324
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Sincere writers with the intent to truly inform, will write to the level of their audience. If they are missing that mark, the readers will provide feedback and the writer should adjust their writing accordingly. If this feedback is ignored and the writer continues with the same approach, it is very evident that the writer is not writing ‘to' their audience, but is writing ‘at' their audience with the simple intent to impress and not to inform; and the only thing being impressed is the writer's ego as his audience silently walks away with a sigh.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:25 AM   #325
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Well there you go. I was going to post that you could have several pages easily on the biological, physical, physiological, mental, chemical, mechanical processes involved in say hitting a baseball. And why a 90 mph fastball appears as big a watermelon to some hitters, but until you go to the batting cage and face a 90 mph fastball your just Bob Costas. A lot may think they are doing aiki or their "version" of it, but it does not explain 1000 strikeouts or the "Babe Ruths" of aiki.
Yup
I have never met or seen someone really unusual and stellar in skill that pursued that type of analysis. I have nothing against it. I'm just a very....VERY practical guy.

I said it before.
I train ...REAL.... physicists, Doctors, Chiropractors, Physical therapists, acupuncturists and body workers. None of whom have anything favorable to say about analysis as budo-even their own.
Eric is as interested as I am in getting his work out there so...
I have a proposal.
A Budo as a science seminar!!
1. Eric can present his theories on movement. I can bring real physicists, doctors and therapists to the seminar -who are also budo teachers and students- to then ask questions.
2. I will give a talk on metaphors used in budo down through the ages. They can ask me questions.

Then we each demonstrate how our theories work in our bodies on those same people.
Then we discuss conclusions.

I will show up anywhere Eric wants. I figure I can get 50-60 people to come and Eric and I can donate to charity. It would be a great way to once again have aikiweb as a center point and pivotal changer in Aikido like Aikido journal was. We all sort of know each other anyway and budo geeks being geeks...we would no doubt have a great time.
Wadda ya think?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-05-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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