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Old 09-24-2012, 07:21 PM   #1
camt
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Judo first?

It seems that most high ranking aikidoka, including the founder, had a solid background in Judo. Would most of you recommend Judo training first? Or just jump right in?

Also, it seems that learning Judo takes far less time due to the "aliveness" training. I believe most judoka would say black belt within 3-4 years.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:16 PM   #2
Cliff Judge
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Re: Judo first?

Why both mastering Judo in 3-4 years. Take some time to sleep late, have some 3-4 day drinking binges, spread it out to about 10. Then you can start Aikido with the proper mindset.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:02 PM   #3
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Judo first?

If you want to learn Judo, then learn it. If you want to learn Aikido, then learning Judo first probably isn't all that helpful. It will have certain advantages, but it will also create a lot of habits that you will have to unlearn.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:03 PM   #4
camt
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Why both mastering Judo in 3-4 years. Take some time to sleep late, have some 3-4 day drinking binges, spread it out to about 10. Then you can start Aikido with the proper mindset.
So you're saying I should start aikido right away? lol

Seriously, would most agree having a judo background is helpful or unnecessary? Nearly 50 views and no useful replies...I would really like to hear from someone who has experience doing both Judo and Aikido.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:46 PM   #5
David Orange
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
So you're saying I should start aikido right away? lol

Seriously, would most agree having a judo background is helpful or unnecessary? Nearly 50 views and no useful replies...I would really like to hear from someone who has experience doing both Judo and Aikido.
Judo will give you a no-nonsense clarity about balance, keeping balance and losing balance. There's no pretending about that in judo (except in the rare kata). Judo will give you a detailed awareness of the whole body and techniques for every part of the body from feet to head. It will give you the ability to analyze your own movement and also to see how a teacher is doing his own techniques.

With that kind of foundation, "relearning" habits shouldn't be too torturous. Judo is all about learning adaptability and fluidity of movement. After all, Kano said that aikido was his "ideal" of the martial way. But aikido was a hell of a lot tougher back then (1930).

So I say go ahead and start learning judo. Get a shodan, and then you'll at least know whether you intend to throw and you'll also know whether you're falling down because you have to or because you're "supposed" to.

Ganbatte!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:50 PM   #6
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
So you're saying I should start aikido right away?
Aye!
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:10 AM   #7
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Judo first?

I did Judo for a while as a teenager; when I started AJJ I thought it would help alot but actually the cross-over in terms of techniques was fairly minimal. There is much less emphasis on throws in AJJ and because there is no competition the training sessions tend to be less physically taxing. However, I prefer AJJ because it is budo rather than sport and Judo will teach you things that are only really practical for Judo. For example you don't want to be grappling with someone in the street newaza style if you can help it, also it someone has a weapon your judgement of distance and safety will have to change. You need to be in close for Judo to work effectively; the 'grip' is very important in Judo to gain the upperhand over your opponent. Sometimes that is disadvantageous in a self-defence situation. I remember when I did Judo as a teenager I asked my sensei once how to use Judo in self-defence and he said he wouldn't use it for self-defence. I think AJJ is more well-rounded as a martial art. If you want to cross-train in Judo and Aikido do it, but they are very different.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:05 AM   #8
sorokod
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Re: Judo first?

Having an extra martial art is a bit like having two eyes, gives you depth of perception.

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Old 09-25-2012, 06:09 AM   #9
phitruong
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
It seems that most high ranking aikidoka, including the founder, had a solid background in Judo. Would most of you recommend Judo training first? Or just jump right in?

Also, it seems that learning Judo takes far less time due to the "aliveness" training. I believe most judoka would say black belt within 3-4 years.
the answer is "it depends!"

worst case scenario (not really), you are older (past 40), with a family (wife and kids), and a full time job. this means you probably could spend 3 days a week, two hours a day, for training at the dojo. that sort of training schedule would be the bare minimum to slowly increase in skills for one art. also, at higher age range, your body isn't conditioned to take the kind of falls for judo (ukemi in judo is mostly breakfalls with the other bugger land on you on the way down), i.e. your recover time is much longer than when you are young. so if you are younger and has lots of time and energy on your hand, then i'd say go for it. if not, then "it depends!"

majority folks came to my dojo have no previous martial art training. not a problem so far. depend on the teacher's background, he/she can bring skills from other arts into aikido training regiment. so it depends.

personally, i would rather pickup karate or kungfu or wingchun or some striking art first. many folks in judo and aikido are lousy at punching and kicking. if you notice that in aikido, you spent half of your time attacking, and if your attacks suck, so are your aikido techniques.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:39 AM   #10
Richard Stevens
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Re: Judo first?

I've been in a handful of physical confrontations and it was my Judo background (and a little luck) that kept me from incurring serious injuries. I love the training I do now, but when push comes to shove my first instinct is to get inside, grab some clothes and send ass over head.

If you're end goal is to practice Aikido, just start training. If you feel like something is missing then cross-train in another art.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:52 AM   #11
chillzATL
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Judo will give you a no-nonsense clarity about balance, keeping balance and losing balance. There's no pretending about that in judo (except in the rare kata). Judo will give you a detailed awareness of the whole body and techniques for every part of the body from feet to head. It will give you the ability to analyze your own movement and also to see how a teacher is doing his own techniques.

With that kind of foundation, "relearning" habits shouldn't be too torturous. Judo is all about learning adaptability and fluidity of movement. After all, Kano said that aikido was his "ideal" of the martial way. But aikido was a hell of a lot tougher back then (1930).

So I say go ahead and start learning judo. Get a shodan, and then you'll at least know whether you intend to throw and you'll also know whether you're falling down because you have to or because you're "supposed" to.

Ganbatte!

David
THis
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:10 AM   #12
Walter Martindale
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Re: Judo first?

I was in judo for 8 years, rather intensively. The senior guys in the two dojo I practiced in, in Vancouver, had all spent significant time living and training in Japan in the 60s. Doug Rogers at UBC was a fairly recent Olympic silver medalist and a godan, G Thom was a sandan who'd been open weight champion of south africa several times, but was only 70 kg, D. Jinks - yondan Irishman who'd been in japan for many years... I took up Aikido at age 40.

Ukemi (the falls and so on) in judo is a matter of trying not to land on your back and learning to do that while not getting hurt and while the other guy is actively trying to make sure you land on your back. Ukemi in Aikido is most often being off-balanced and directed to the ground but you have to look out for yourself and not land on a corner (e.g., your shoulder) because after the throw, Nage tends to let you fly so he or she can attend to another attacker. i.e., Ukemi in Aikido is more about not getting hurt, Ukemi in judo is more about surviving and not giving up a point. (this is MY point of view, others may differ)

So. It depends. Judo is about competition, in the long run, and has a bunch of rules. Until you're going for higher dan grades, you don't often practice defense against kicks, punches, weapons attacks. You don't learn to protect your face against a punch - because the sport doesn't allow it. You get tough from the "safe" combat. "Safe" because you learn to take a fall, you learn to throw, but it doesn't include full-contact striking or weapons. You learn "safe" grappling. "Safe" because you learn techniques that are aimed at competition - strangulations (with rules) - hold-downs, escapes from hold downs, and elbow locks.

Few Aikido dojo include ground grappling. However you can (depending on the dojo and the sensei) learn practical defense against strikes, weapons, and get lots and lots of physical fitness. (hint - most of the physical fitness comes from ukemi and getting back up). Depending on the instructor, you can spend a lot of time practicing, or you can spend a lot of time watching the instructor (sensei) demonstrate and mumble.

I won't return to judo. This old body can't take it. With Aikido I can plead "old" and slow down - I do it more for exercise these days than the "martial" aspect. Depending on YOUR age and physical literacy, you may benefit from an "old school" dojo that has a lot of bashing around, or you may benefit from a more placid dojo that is a little more philosophy than flying bodies.

If you're young - it wouldn't hurt your Aikido very much if you spend a little time in judo, but remember that they're very different, even though related.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:53 AM   #13
ewolput
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Re: Judo first?

If you have a "Tomiki" aikido dojo in the neighborhood, have a look overthere. Tomiki's aikido has a lot of judo influence. Normally they teach you "koryu" aikido and "randori kyogi" aikido. Recently some of the old judo kata are also taught (Koshiki no kata,...).
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:11 AM   #14
Chris Evans
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Talking Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
It seems that most high ranking aikidoka, including the founder, had a solid background in Judo. Would most of you recommend Judo training first? Or just jump right in?

Also, it seems that learning Judo takes far less time due to the "aliveness" training. I believe most judoka would say black belt within 3-4 years.
judo's awesome, dangerously fun: I cross-train judo once per week. judo and aikido goes together, IMnHO . the importance is in keeping up momentum of training...like "boiling water" don't let off the "heat" and if you do, get right back on the "saddle."

although, I admire the ne-waza-focus and strong rigors of jiu-jitsu, I prefer judo's stand-up/clinch training to compliment aikido & karate. besides, judo will really improve your utemi (fun high/air falls) that's half of aikido in a dojo.

my take: do as much judo, but train in aikido at least 3 or 4 times per week. too much diversity dilutes your "base" building.

I am from the school of thought that says be well rounded, but hone a martial arts specialty, a base, that trains to save life, as a priority over prize-fighting...the kind of open mindset of hapkido, Shaolin martial ch'an monks, & of late Bruce Lee's.

I also cross-train in "Tomiki" aikido, once a week.
Osu

Last edited by Chris Evans : 09-25-2012 at 09:20 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:12 AM   #15
lbb
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
Seriously, would most agree having a judo background is helpful or unnecessary? Nearly 50 views and no useful replies...I would really like to hear from someone who has experience doing both Judo and Aikido.
It's an odd question, which may explain why you're not seeing answers that you judge as "useful". If you'd asked, "I'm trying to decide between judo and aikido, can you help me decide?", I'm sure we could provide some helpful information. Likewise, if you'd said, "I already have a judo background, will this help me in aikido?" I'm sure you'd get some good answers there. But you have no background in either, and want to know if a judo background is either helpful or unnecessary to studying aikido (which is a bit of a false dichotomy, but let that go for now). I'd say it can be helpful, and that it's not necessary, but that that doesn't have much to do with your situation. If you want to know whether studying judo for four years and then studying aikido for four years will somehow have you further along the aikido path than just studying aikido for eight years, I'd say of course not, and why would you think it would? As the saying goes, "If you don't know where you're going, any road will do." There's no point in asking which road to take unless you also consider where you want to end up.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:40 AM   #16
Chris Evans
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. many folks in judo and aikido are lousy at punching and kicking.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the answer is "it depends!"

worst case scenario (not really), you are older (past 40), with a family (wife and kids), and a full time job. this means you probably could spend 3 days a week, two hours a day, for training at the dojo. that sort of training schedule would be the bare minimum to slowly increase in skills for one art. also, at higher age range, your body isn't conditioned to take the kind of falls for judo (ukemi in judo is mostly breakfalls with the other bugger land on you on the way down), i.e. your recover time is much longer than when you are young. so if you are younger and has lots of time and energy on your hand, then i'd say go for it. if not, then "it depends!"

majority folks came to my dojo have no previous martial art training. not a problem so far. depend on the teacher's background, he/she can bring skills from other arts into aikido training regiment. so it depends.

personally, i would rather pickup karate or kungfu or wingchun or some striking art first. many folks in judo and aikido are lousy at punching and kicking. if you notice that in aikido, you spent half of your time attacking, and if your attacks suck, so are your aikido techniques.
so true ".... many folks in judo and aikido are lousy at punching and kicking...."
I would guess that not many aikido yudansha can NOT stop the bare knuckle punches from a kyokushin/enshin yudansha.

...and a solid, penetrating, punch to the face can take down an assault, real fast.
I have many years of karate and am still honing my punch (and kick), at home garage gym and when I drop-in at my old karate dojo (which is infrequently, since I'm focused on aikido).

Osu

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:42 AM   #17
JJF
 
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Re: Judo first?

I'll add my 2 cents to the 'it depends' choir. My first sensei was a very experienced judo ka before taking up aikido, and he did beautiful ukemi and was a great aikido-teacher. No doubt his judo background acted as a sounding board for his aikido. The same is probably true for Nishio sensei and other japanese aikido-shihans. They can utilize judo and other budo experiences in their quest for 'their own aikido'.

I think however that it might help you develop good aikido, but it wont get you to good aikido (what ever that is) any faster. Also judo is different from dojo to dojo as far as i understand. Some judo organisations tend to focus on the competition aspect and this can have the unfortunate effect that people rely too much on muscle and physique than on technique. This is probably a bad tendency to bring into most aikido dojos.

So.. my answer is: if you had done judo for many years it would probably help you learning aikido, but since Aikido is what you want to learn - and you havn't - go practice aikido. Then take the odd classes or seminars with a judo sensei or someone who incorporates this in aikido some time in the future. you need to build a solid base for your aikido, but this base can be build from good aikido, and you will be able to go straight into learning instead of having to 'unlearn' first. I did Shotokan karate and Kendo for some years before aikido.. took me a while to change my mindset and the way I move. No doubt I have had some benefits from my background, but I would still wish I had started out in Aikido from the very beginning. Man I would have been good today then

Do what you want to do. Don't worry about cross-training as a prerequisite for doing good aikido. It is not. You can learn anything you need to learn for the next several decades by going to the right aikido dojos.

Good luck

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:12 AM   #18
Chris Evans
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Re: Judo first?

a lot of people just want to learn aikido for the sake of aikido. some people want to learn aikido for the sake of budo. just like they are people that want to learn Seido karate to be good at Seido while others want to improve their karate, as a martial art.

for me, karate and aikdo are ways of enhancing inner peace and to promote peace, when "bullets" are not required, if you know what I mean: First sort out your own purpose.

no matter who you are, judo exposure's good stuff.

Last edited by Chris Evans : 09-25-2012 at 10:16 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:36 AM   #19
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Judo first?

I train in both. I love both, though aikido is my "main" art...but that is more due to circumstances not related to the styles of MAs. Just train, its not like you are joining the military...you can back out of something you don't like! Sogu Budo!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:58 PM   #20
Robert Cowham
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Re: Judo first?

Back in my early days of Aikido, a friend called it "old man's judo" and I felt initially insulted. But one of my initial reasons for studying Aikido was to keep getting better as I got older, and so I realised that this was (perhaps) a compliment.

I also had a teacher in Holland for 6 months who had 15 years judo, and then 10 years aikido - and he was damn good.

Since then, have come across dan ranked judoka who feel very stiff in aikido. Also those who feel very powerful and yet soft. Also those who enjoy my aikido classes and find it is something different to what they get in judo.

Get out there and make your own mind up
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:53 PM   #21
camt
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's an odd question, which may explain why you're not seeing answers that you judge as "useful". If you'd asked, "I'm trying to decide between judo and aikido, can you help me decide?", I'm sure we could provide some helpful information. Likewise, if you'd said, "I already have a judo background, will this help me in aikido?" I'm sure you'd get some good answers there. But you have no background in either, and want to know if a judo background is either helpful or unnecessary to studying aikido (which is a bit of a false dichotomy, but let that go for now). I'd say it can be helpful, and that it's not necessary, but that that doesn't have much to do with your situation. If you want to know whether studying judo for four years and then studying aikido for four years will somehow have you further along the aikido path than just studying aikido for eight years, I'd say of course not, and why would you think it would? As the saying goes, "If you don't know where you're going, any road will do." There's no point in asking which road to take unless you also consider where you want to end up.
At the time I was writing my previous post there was just one not so useful post. Now however, there are many useful ones! Including yours, so thanks.

I'm actually enrolled at the local university Aikido club and have been doing it for a couple weeks. It is a lot of fun. There is also a Judo club that is within a 20min walk from my house headed by Yeiji Inouye, 9th Dan. Unfortunately the class times are offered on the same days, with one exception, there is a friday session in Judo. I think I may try a class or two see how that goes...

For those that suggest I take up a striking art; I was in boxing during my senior year of highschool and I still feel like a competent boxer (could be wrong though!) .
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:20 AM   #22
David Orange
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
I'm actually enrolled at the local university Aikido club and have been doing it for a couple weeks. It is a lot of fun. There is also a Judo club that is within a 20min walk from my house headed by Yeiji Inouye, 9th Dan. Unfortunately the class times are offered on the same days, with one exception, there is a friday session in Judo. I think I may try a class or two see how that goes....
There are probably 10,000 university aikido clubs, but someone like Yeiji Inouye, judo 9th dan, a 20 minute walk from your house?

That sounds like the bell of heaven, to me.

In five years under a teacher like that, where could you be?

He can teach you deeply on judo, but also budo.

He might even know a little aikido under a 9th dan judoka's belt.

Now look at five years under the university aikido club.

Where will that take you?

Please make the 10 minute RUN to Inouye's dojo!

You'll have the rest of your life to train in University aikido clubs.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:14 AM   #23
David Orange
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
There are probably 10,000 university aikido clubs, but someone like Yeiji Inouye, judo 9th dan, a 20 minute walk from your house?
Please make the 10 minute RUN to Inouye's dojo!
Make that, "Make the 5 minute SPRINT!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOGv8xfDSs

86 years old and looks better than I do now.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:29 PM   #24
camt
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Make that, "Make the 5 minute SPRINT!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOGv8xfDSs

86 years old and looks better than I do now.
Haha, he does look good for his age! I'm going to sign up soon.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:39 PM   #25
David Orange
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
Haha, he does look good for his age! I'm going to sign up soon.
The 9th dan is a (the) Canadian Judo organization's rank. Not sure what he is in kodokan, but I'll bet no one in the aikido group could keep his feet around Inouye.

Also, his attitude is great and he can relate to the depth of budo history.

No telling who he has met and what he has seen.

What a chance!

Maybe I'll get to meet him someday.

Thanks for pointing him out.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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