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Old 08-30-2012, 11:15 AM   #1
bob_stra
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Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Here's a fun little clip that's popped up in a MMA forum (of all places). It seems to be getting some air time due to Tanoyama "unusual strength".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

It's interesting to watch his fights. Being so obviously under-weight (compared to his opponents) means Tanoyama is pretty fun to watch. Perhaps not quite 'pure water' (IMHO), but he moves, throws, clashes and redirects like someone who means business.
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:36 PM   #2
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

He never looks like he is "trying". He is doing.

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Old 08-30-2012, 09:10 PM   #3
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Here's a fun little clip that's popped up in a MMA forum (of all places). It seems to be getting some air time due to Tanoyama "unusual strength".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

It's interesting to watch his fights. Being so obviously under-weight (compared to his opponents) means Tanoyama is pretty fun to watch. Perhaps not quite 'pure water' (IMHO), but he moves, throws, clashes and redirects like someone who means business.
Wow! One of the best sumotori I've ever seen. Quite unusual to see a foreign sumotori who is so..almost slim! Looks like he's really mastered the art. He should make yokozuna.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-30-2012, 11:45 PM   #4
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Very impressive video. It's interesting to see him use a Russian tie a few times, since it's something I'm not used to seeing in Sumo. It doesn't seem to lead to anything useful in this context, maybe because you can't really attack the legs, or maybe it doesn't work as well when you are generally fighting guys who are significantly larger than you. Although he does seem to use it very effectively as a way of diverting his opponent when they are coming straight at him, especially with the guys who over-commit. A few nice arm drags too, which I'm also not used to seeing in Sumo much. Or are they used, and I haven't just seen enough Sumo? Does anyone if that is the case?

Josh
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Old 08-31-2012, 01:13 AM   #5
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
Very impressive video. It's interesting to see him use a Russian tie a few times, since it's something I'm not used to seeing in Sumo. It doesn't seem to lead to anything useful in this context, maybe because you can't really attack the legs, or maybe it doesn't work as well when you are generally fighting guys who are significantly larger than you. Although he does seem to use it very effectively as a way of diverting his opponent when they are coming straight at him, especially with the guys who over-commit. A few nice arm drags too, which I'm also not used to seeing in Sumo much. Or are they used, and I haven't just seen enough Sumo? Does anyone if that is the case?

Josh
Hi Josh,

In the book, Dynamic Sumo, there is a technique called katasukashi-throwing an opponent down by grabbing the arm he is thrusting with. I don't know much about sumo, but love to watch it when I get the chance... :0)

Take Care,
ChrisW
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:32 AM   #6
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

That guy is my hero. Great use of Western wrestling alongside "unusual strength" in a sumo context. Love it.
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:41 PM   #7
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

His name is Takanoyama. He often goes for an armlock at the tachiai at the start of the bout. He has a background in judo and perhaps he was used to doing that from a cross grip. Also because he is very, very light for a sumo wrestler he has probably found that getting an angle at the start is more productive than trying to wrestle square on. Takanoyama goes for the armlock and then switches into other techniques.

The armbar throwing technique is called tottari. It's not common but a few sumo wrestlers have had it as one of their favourite techniques.

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Old 09-03-2012, 12:16 AM   #8
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Wow! One of the best sumotori I've ever seen. Quite unusual to see a foreign sumotori who is so..almost slim! Looks like he's really mastered the art. He should make yokozuna.
One can hope, but it would be unusual for someone that light to be able to overcome the weight disadvantage given the constraints imposed by the situation.

Mainoumi, for example, was about the same size (around 220lbs), and an excellent technician, but he could never quite make it up to the top ranks (although he did do pretty well).

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-19-2012, 12:40 PM   #9
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Aiki Size vs Skill- Sumo vs small skilled guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXufM4CkdU

This is simply a highlight real, so he doesn't always win all of his bouts, or do it in such fine fashion. But this guy is showing us an example of what skill, mental fortitude and good "Aiki" can do. Not to say this guy studied "Aikido", be he has what I would describe as "Aiki". Check out 1:46 about as nice of an Aiki moment as one can have!

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Old 09-20-2012, 07:49 AM   #10
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I don't see any evidence of IS nor aiki in either person - simply moving out of the way and pushing someone past you is not aiki IMO. However, I do see the use of more leverage types of movements from the little guy than the big guy; who appears to be just using his weight in a direct manner against his opponent.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 09-20-2012 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:56 AM   #11
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.

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Old 09-20-2012, 11:01 AM   #12
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I don't see any evidence of IS nor aiki in either person - simply moving out of the way and pushing someone past you is not aiki IMO. However, I do see the use of more leverage types of movements from the little guy than the big guy; who appears to be just using his weight in a direct manner against his opponent.

Greg
Hi Greg
The problem is that most people call moving out of the way with proper timing "aiki"
Which is rather interesting in itself. I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"

We are reading and seeing Ueshiba outlining "aiki" in line with all the Chinese attributes for internal power. All based on In/ yo.....in you.
Which is;
a. A much more difficult endeavor
b. Has far more dramatic results.
So, I guess the question is, which is right; aiki in you or simply moving out of the way?
Moving out of the way is done by children, Grannies, football players, and just about any human moving on the planet. Seems strange to then say it takes 40 years to master moving out of the way. Why make a big deal over it since anyone can do it. Its kind of like saying I made up an art out of placing one foot in front of the other!!
Aiki as laid out by generations of Asians is a far more complex model involving moving energy within you to control a balance of forces within you, that then controls forces coming in to you. And it sure as hell cannot be done by grannies and children and football players, and for eons it blew the minds of people who encountered it....and wanted to pursue it.
In an age where your life depended on the results; experienced warriors were not so easily impressed as to go WOW!!...over moving out of the way.
Dan
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:10 AM   #13
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.
All due respect I disagree with each definition. If that were all it was, then that entire summation is used by every budo-ka I ever met to one degree or another. So by definition Aiki is done by every person alive.
Sort of like...breath in and out.... do
Walk....do
Blink....do

I say it is far....far more complicated than that. As a study, it captured the Asians for generations. When Ueshiba exclaimed "I discovered aiki!" and "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo!" He wasn't saying....
After all these years....finally.... I found out how to move out of the way.....
Dan
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:12 AM   #14
gregstec
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Greg,
It depends on what you call "Aiki".
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.

He clearly demonstrations the four necessary steps to make an Aiki interaction. Kokyu (he is calm, grounded, and present) Musubi (he makes a connection with his partners mind, binding it with his own) Awase, (that very nice blend he used) and Musubi, (he stayed connected after the blend was over). That is what I would call Aiki.
Yes, it does depend on what you call aiki - and it is obvious we do not share the same view on it - there really is no need to go into detail here since the differences have been discussed ad infinitum here on the numerous internal strength/power threads over the years.

Greg
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #15
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Greg
The problem is that most people call moving out of the way with proper timing "aiki"
Which is rather interesting in itself. I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"
I always think of it as the "Hey, your shoelaces are untied!" approach.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2012, 11:33 AM   #16
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would be shocked if generations of experienced Samurai considered moving out of the way as an "amazing skill"
That's funny, because if you can simply "move out of the way" of anything coming your way, I would call that pretty amazing.

Why don't all the other Sumo simply "move out of the way"? How does anyone ever win a Sumo match? Actually, why does anyone ever get hit at all, why don't they just "move out of the way"? If you could master this "move out of the way" thing (and it sounds pretty simple) you could be the best boxer in the world, or maybe even the best martial artist in the world...

Sound's like a gross oversimplification to me.

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Old 09-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #17
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
That's funny, because if you can simply "move out of the way" of anything coming your way, I would call that pretty amazing.

Why don't all the other Sumo simply "move out of the way"? How does anyone ever win a Sumo match? Actually, why does anyone ever get hit at all, why don't they just "move out of the way"? If you could master this "move out of the way" thing (and it sounds pretty simple) you could be the best boxer in the world, or maybe even the best martial artist in the world...
You can't. No one can move out of the way all the time. It isn't a realistic approach to fighting. And even when it is occasionally successful-and it is- it still doesn't make moving out of the way...the high level strategy that would cause generations of people to be absorbed by it.
Put simply it isn't aiki- and never was.

Quote:
Sound's like a gross oversimplification to me.
It is, but I didn't make the simplification in the first place. There isn't anything in it that is high level. Its run of the mill wrestling strategy that "captured" no one of significance.
My point is that Takeda, Ueshiba, and dozens like them who felt them were not so easily impressed by someone who could move out of the way.
In fact...go review the majority of comments about what Ueshiba felt like. Almost all of them were about his power. Same with Takeda.
I say this whole new redefining of aiki as external blending and moving out of the way, is a modern invention that has no real place in the history of high level arts. The work behind all of the high level arts are discussing an entirely different internal dynamic of balanced energy. And it was that...and not wrestling strategy, that made the legendary martial artists.

When they asked him to describe aiki and he got down and drew a circle explaining it was opposing energy ...He meant inside yourself. He didn't mean run around in a circle evading people.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-20-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:43 PM   #18
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You can't. No one can move out of the way all the time. It isn't a realistic approach to fighting. And even when it is occasionally successful-and it is- it still doesn't make moving out of the way...the high level strategy that would cause generations of people to be absorbed by it.
Well, unless you're talking about impressive people who seem to almost always "move out of the way" Like early Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Anderson Silva, or other high level competitors. I mean no one is really interested in someone like Muhammad Ali, it's not like generations of people have been absorbed in thinking about how he did what he did...

Quote:
Put simply it isn't aiki- and never was.
Your opinion.

Quote:
It is, but I didn't make the simplification in the first place.
---Didn't you just say this?
Quote:
Moving out of the way is done by children, Grannies,

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Old 09-20-2012, 01:52 PM   #19
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Well, unless you're talking about impressive people who seem to almost always "move out of the way" Like early Muhammad Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Anderson Silva, or other high level competitors. I mean no one is really interested in someone like Muhammad Ali, it's not like generations of people have been absorbed in thinking about how he did what he did...
There's certainly nothing wrong with avoidance, I love it.

I think what Dan is saying is that it isn't Aiki.

Not every good strategy is Aiki - I might even go so far as to say that Aiki really isn't a strategy at all, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2012, 02:21 PM   #20
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I might even go so far as to say that Aiki really isn't a strategy at all, IMO.
I agree with this. Aiki is a way of being. Being connected with the world around you, including those that wish to attack you. So not a simple strategy, but a way of life.

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Old 09-20-2012, 02:30 PM   #21
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I agree with this. Aiki is a way of being. Being connected with the world around you, including those that wish to attack you. So not a simple strategy, but a way of life.
I think that I would define the connections to the world around you and those that wish to attack you as an effect rather a goal - which may seem a small difference, but actually changes how you do things quite a bit, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2012, 03:04 PM   #22
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Being connected isn't an effect, it's a state of being. Effect denotes a change, being connected just is, the realization of this connection is the difference that is the foundation of what I would call Aiki.

You could be on boat your whole life and not realize that you're cruising down a river. The second you realize it doesn't change (have an effect on) the fact that you're on the boat. It does however mean that you can now hop off the boat, or swim along side it, or notice/look at the boat.

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Old 09-20-2012, 03:08 PM   #23
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Being connected isn't an effect, it's a state of being. Effect denotes a change, being connected just is, the realization of this connection is the difference that is the foundation of what I would call Aiki.

You could be on boat your whole life and not realize that you're cruising down a river. The second you realize it doesn't change (have an effect on) the fact that you're on the boat. It does however mean that you can now hop off the boat, or swim along side it, or notice/look at the boat.
Wouldn't you call:

Quote:
I would say he used Aiki because he made his attackers intention and action (ki) fit together (ai) with his own intention and actions.
Effecting a change?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #24
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Yes something happened. I would call that something aiki. Realizing that there is a connection is the first part (kokyu, then musubi) the next part was the awase, and after the blend he demonstrated zanshin. The whole interaction was Aiki, he used his understanding or the attackers intention (via their connectio) to make Aiki (energy fitting together).

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Old 09-22-2012, 09:51 AM   #25
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Yes something happened. I would call that something aiki. Realizing that there is a connection is the first part (kokyu, then musubi) the next part was the awase, and after the blend he demonstrated zanshin. The whole interaction was Aiki, he used his understanding or the attackers intention (via their connectio) to make Aiki (energy fitting together).
Since the internal strength and aiki you keep describing can be found on a high school wrestling mat or in a TKD school at the mall...what does that say about internal strength and aiki and the generations of people who were so awed by it they made it legendary?
Were they so stunningly incompetent that a high school wrestler's skills would dazzle them?

I'd only state and agree with Greg, and Chris that what you are describing as Internal strength and aiki is typical wrestling strategy (here-done well). If this were all that the mythic Internal Strength and "aiki" was...no one would have crossed the street to learn something they could have picked up in any hundred other arts.

I've seen similar things like this in the Chinese arts with westerners now "re-defining" what internal power is in order to reduce it .....to something they can then say they know and can do.
I find all of it rather odd since the people doing this can't do anything unusual and feel like any other average Joe in the martial art world.
At the end of the day it is rather telling.
1. The people who have taken over-all the arts- are nothing compared to the greats.
2. Yet they stand there (feeling like any average Joe) telling the world they understand what the greats were doing.
3. If someone understands these deep principles-shouldn't they feel different then your average wrestler? Shouldn't they ...at the very least....feel unusual?
4. If they don't-what does that say?

Fighting skill versus understanding of deeper aspects
Today we have the same issues as ages past. If you can fight well...for many observers ..that is it. THAT is the vetting process. I disagree. I think being able to fight well is that and that only. It doesn't mean anyone from Joe Frazier to Royce Gracie understood what aiki is. We can go from gang bangers to bikers to wrestlers to Spec Op professionals; none of their abilities has any bearing on their understanding higher level skills in the martial arts.

Internal strength and aiki are a stand alone skill set that happens to work very....very well in fighting. But IS and fighting are different skill sets. and IS alone is obvious and can be felt on the spot.
As one very powerful Master class teacher of IS (who taught in Japan as well) once said.
What is all this talk about aiki?
Where is Yin
Where is Yang
Where then is Ai...ki?
You cannot pretend Dantian
You will be found out.

FWIW, he...felt...very unusual and his body proved what his mouth was talking about. That should be a challenge and a standard for us all.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2012 at 10:04 AM.
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