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Old 08-27-2012, 05:54 PM   #51
stan baker
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Could Tohei throw Ueshiba?
Could Ueshiba throw Tohei?
What if neither could throw the other?
Who then would be doing Aikido?
And do you see Aikido as being only about developing the ability to throw people; or becoming unthrowable; or both; or neither?
Is the acquisition of power that ultimately becomes simultaneously irresistible and unyielding the goal of your training?
And how will you know if you ever get there?

Ron
that is a big part
when you get there you will know
stan
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #52
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Nobody here ever said that Ueshiba didn't take ukemi - that's really not the point of the conversation.

Best,

Chris
It was stated that Ueshiba couldn't be thrown. Thus it opens the door to what is the difference between taking ukemi and being thrown. Such statements need clarifying and appear contentious otherwise I would say.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #53
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
At what point does the mere presence of two people mean one is excerting his will...even just by agreeing? At what point is denying you are exerting your will in a physical interaction...just simply *denial*?
I have been thinking about this a lot. I teach children, and I let them throw me all the time. Of course I could stop their technique, but I really want them to learn, so I go with it. If I started to believe that they were really throwing me, I would be in trouble. I think they know that I am letting them do it, but it gives them the right feeling. We can gradually increase the resistance. That's just one way of training, but it seems to be pretty popular and work well for most people.

I think there is a danger of confusing training exercises with real-life applications. We generally don't do real-life applications in the dojo because they are dangerous, so we do a lot of exercises to develop the skills that we would use in a real-life situation. If we deny, however, that these are training exercises (where we are exerting our will to simulate something or create certain training conditions), I think that can create a bad situation.

Incidentally, I would call standing in one place and letting someone try to throw you or move you an exercise as well. In real life, the mountain that cannot be moved makes a pretty great target for a knife attack.

Conrad
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:14 PM   #54
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It was stated that Ueshiba couldn't be thrown. Thus it opens the door to what is the difference between taking ukemi and being thrown. Such statements need clarifying and appear contentious otherwise I would say.

Peace.G.
OK, in case anything is unclear - nobody here ever said Ueshiba or anybody else never took ukemi.

Of course, anybody is capable of taking ukemi if they choose to do so. The can also roll around on without anybody being around for miles.

FWIW, Dan has taken ukemi for me many times.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2012, 06:27 PM   #55
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OK, in case anything is unclear - nobody here ever said Ueshiba or anybody else never took ukemi.

Of course, anybody is capable of taking ukemi if they choose to do so. The can also roll around on without anybody being around for miles.

FWIW, Dan has taken ukemi for me many times.

Best,

Chris
Not being contentious here but I would say this: When being Uke as a teacher then what are you doing?

I for one am teaching the nage how to 'throw' and indeed how to 'throw' me.

Thus any teacher worth their salt is teaching how to.

So any statement of how another couldn't shows a lack of good teaching from that viewpoint, by the uke.
Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:27 PM   #56
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OK, in case anything is unclear - nobody here ever said Ueshiba or anybody else never took ukemi.

Of course, anybody is capable of taking ukemi if they choose to do so. The can also roll around on without anybody being around for miles.

FWIW, Dan has taken ukemi for me many times.

Best,

Chris
I don't think it's one or the other ("taking ukemi" or "being thrown"). There is a continuum that ranges all the way from letting a 5-year-old execute kokyunage on you, to finding yourself on the mat and not even knowing how you got there. The latter has never happened to me, but I've felt quite a bit of the scale over the years.

I could see how the possibilities of experiencing the higher end of the scale would diminish (potentially to zero) as one's own abilities (or whatever ) increase relative to those of the people with whom one is training. Under this conception, O-Sensei might experience everyone the same way I experience training with my kids' class.

I think this is the point Chris and Dan are trying to make. It makes sense to me.

Conrad
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:34 PM   #57
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I don't think it's one or the other ("taking ukemi" or "being thrown"). There is a continuum that ranges all the way from letting a 5-year-old execute kokyunage on you, to finding yourself on the mat and not even knowing how you got there. The latter has never happened to me, but I've felt quite a bit of the scale over the years.

I could see how the possibilities of experiencing the higher end of the scale would diminish (potentially to zero) as one's own abilities (or whatever ) increase relative to those of the people with whom one is training. Under this conception, O-Sensei might experience everyone the same way I experience training with my kids' class.

I think this is the point Chris and Dan are trying to make. It makes sense to me.

Conrad
Yes, I agree that there is a scale, but I don't think that is really the relevant point. That "unthrowable" stability is the expression of a certain kind of practice all by itself - that would be a little bit closer...

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-27-2012, 07:02 PM   #58
graham christian
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree that there is a scale, but I don't think that is really the relevant point. That "unthrowable" stability is the expression of a certain kind of practice all by itself - that would be a little bit closer...

Best,

Chris
"unthrowable" stability. I have a view on this but I know it would be different to yours and I wouldn't use such wording to describe it as I feel it leads to more confusion and indeed delusion than it does good.

However it does remind me of a little story from my past.

My girlfiend at the time wanted to visit her friend in a certain 'no go' area in north London as she was living with a guy who was a master of some martial art. This art she said practiced 'unpenetrable' body.

That did make me smile. She said it was Ki based and what she had been told and we discussed it.

Anyway, move forward to me being in the guys house waiting for her to return from the kitchen where she was chatting with her friend and husband and a group of guys from his school. It was called Kateda as I recall.

One guy came out from the kitchen and brought me a book to read and then another came and asked me if I would like a drink and then another came and sat down and proceede to talk about martial arts. I listened and acknowledged them but was taken by a strange type of reverence they all seemed to be giving me.

Finally my girlfriend reappeared and was ready to go and everyone came and bid us farewell and even insisted I leave with a present.

This bugged me. When we got home it dawned on me that something must have been said in the kitchen that I was unaware of so I asked what had been said.

She told me that the men had been showing her some Kateda and she had done what I said and they hit the floor. On asking her where she learned that she had told them I had taught her it.

Wow! Now it all made sense. I shook my head and laughed. "Why do people do that?" I thought.

Peace.G.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:20 PM   #59
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Not being contentious here but I would say this: When being Uke as a teacher then what are you doing?

I for one am teaching the nage how to 'throw' and indeed how to 'throw' me.

Thus any teacher worth their salt is teaching how to.

So any statement of how another couldn't shows a lack of good teaching from that viewpoint, by the uke.
Peace.G.
I read the claim that certain people are or were unthrowable as saying simply that some people can be thrown only when they allow it, but can't be thrown against their will.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:40 PM   #60
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
that is a big part
when you get there you will know
stan
And yet it's at that point
when you know you've arrived,
there's that someone
waiting around the corner
who will let you know,
that you're not there yet.

Ron

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Old 08-28-2012, 12:46 AM   #61
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
that is a big part
when you get there you will know
stan
Too bad it's also true (apparently) that when one is not there one will often think he or she is.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:36 AM   #62
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Too bad it's also true (apparently) that when one is not there one will often think he or she is.
been there. done that.

always wondering why folks shy away from acquiring power? as though, power is a bad thing. perhaps they don't trust themselves with it? i don't have problem with power. foods and women, on the hand, are problematic.

question, is a sphere (3-D) a stable shape?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #63
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I have been thinking about this a lot. I teach children, and I let them throw me all the time. Of course I could stop their technique, but I really want them to learn, so I go with it. If I started to believe that they were really throwing me, I would be in trouble. I think they know that I am letting them do it, but it gives them the right feeling. We can gradually increase the resistance. That's just one way of training, but it seems to be pretty popular and work well for most people.

I think there is a danger of confusing training exercises with real-life applications. We generally don't do real-life applications in the dojo because they are dangerous, so we do a lot of exercises to develop the skills that we would use in a real-life situation. If we deny, however, that these are training exercises (where we are exerting our will to simulate something or create certain training conditions), I think that can create a bad situation.

Incidentally, I would call standing in one place and letting someone try to throw you or move you an exercise as well. In real life, the mountain that cannot be moved makes a pretty great target for a knife attack.

Conrad
Well standing in one place and demonstrating dynamic stability and the ability to absorb forces and neutralize them is essential to aiki. It is worth noting that it is so essential that most every high level art in the history of planet earth based their deeper teaching on it. Aikido used to as well, it's just all but gone from the art. The benefits of it are unknown to most modern adepts. This is evident in watching high ranking people move, even those supposedly out teaching internal movement. They wobble and buckle under load. The shear volume of those who don't get it –to include a staggering number of high ranking budoka-doesn't support any counter argument. It does nothing to change the deeper work that was a staple of the higher level arts that Aikido used to be a part of under Ueshiba.

Stability
Two of the concepts Ueshiba talked about; Heaven/earth/man and six direction training were grossly mistranslated as a random sequence of words lacking any known meaning to the translators. So six direction training which had been laid out in India, in China, and as early as 1451 in Japan and taught at places such as the Katori and Kashima shrines was always categorized as imbuing an adept with power. This teaching-itself a very deep and difficult endeavor with an established pedagogy was reduced to "stand in hanmi" by some of the same people who brought us modern aikido.
There is a reason to attain central stability and hence dynamic stability. It is from this stability that the body achieves in yo or (yin yang). It is the central support system that allows the body to be soft-yet strong. Thinking it has anything at all to do with “standing still” just demonstrates the incredible ignorance of the modern martial arts community to what is really going on.
Point of fact is that once this central stability is achieved-mores the point once the method to achieve it is built into the body-you actually move faster than a normal person in space, with no telegraphing movement. This is one of the reasons that the attributes of Heaven earth man and six direction training are never argued in person, but only on the net by an uneducated and inexperienced community of teachers. Simply put, in person those who do not understand it simply fail agains those who do. Virtually all of them.
As an aside I would mention that one of the staple principles of throwing is the push when pulled or turn when pushed examples. And the model I am describing virtually eliminates the very idea, to the point that it simply doesn’t work on you. The secondary attribute I mentioned is the ability to make change in yourself that offers no telegraphing to an opponent. This has to do with the fact that the method used to connect the body to make these principles work has another benefit in that the body works in a highly efficient manner that doesn’t weight shift like normal folk. This results in rapid movement, weight transfers in and out of an opponent without your weight being applied or being “had” and incredible force in punching or kicking. Other benefits are ghosty, unreadable movements.
So in reality there really is no debate. Thinking someone can out argue you, or out talk you matters little. Very intelligent and well read “experts” in budo fall apart against it, MMA people are flummoxed trying to figure out what is happening to them. So any internet *dialogue* is the equivalent of trying to debate whether two and two equals four.

Suffice to say that Ueshiba was oft times quoting well established works-including Chinese classics, and was not the singular genius people think he was. I am not taking anything away from him here, but in fact appluading him, and just noting that he was yet another “great” using deeper level principles of the Asian arts that few know about or ever attain.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this, the debate over them has existed for centuries. Again a founder of a Japanese Koryu in 1451 uses the very same models Ueshiba was discussing:
“Once I understood the concepts of Heaven/earth/man and six direction method, (learned from esoteric training at Kashima and Katori shrine) my ken was unbeatable. No one could stop me.”

A modern martial artists not finding any of this useful is a stunning statement of their level of understanding of movement and the higher levels of Budo.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-28-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:46 AM   #64
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So six direction training which had been laid out in India, in China, and as early as 1451 in Japan and taught at places such as the Katori and Kashima shrines was always categorized as imbuing an adept with power.
Interesting. In your opinion, are the skills you are referring to still being taught in the Katori and Kashima arts?
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:47 AM   #65
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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been there. done that.

always wondering why folks shy away from acquiring power? as though, power is a bad thing. perhaps they don't trust themselves with it? i don't have problem with power. foods and women, on the hand, are problematic.

question, is a sphere (3-D) a stable shape?
Depends what it's a sphere OF. A sphere of mass in outer space (i.e., relatively far from other masses) held together by its own gravity can be very stable - it may remain spherical or almost so for millenia. A sphere of water on a table in my kitchen, not so much.

Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material).
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #66
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There is a reason to attain central stability and hence dynamic stability. It is from this stability that the body achieves in yo or (yin yang). It is the central support system that allows the body to be soft-yet strong. ... <SNIP>

Dan
On just this one quote... My work with a heavy bag changed dramatically as I focused on this. Still a lot of work to do, but I found the feeling of working the bag changed too. Power went up, power changed. Delivery came at odder and odder angles for me. A friend visited recently who I used to train with and he commented that on the bag I seemed faster than I ever was before. And how did I manage that being 10 years older, a bit fatter, and a lot more injured...

Dynamic stillness. Makes for surprisingly fast striking and movement.

Still trying to grok it all... Back to my rubber bands. And I need to find some time to get together with Gary...

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Old 08-28-2012, 11:00 AM   #67
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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been there. done that.

always wondering why folks shy away from acquiring power? as though, power is a bad thing. perhaps they don't trust themselves with it? i don't have problem with power. foods and women, on the hand, are problematic.

question, is a sphere (3-D) a stable shape?
The idea of one point or sphere is good but basic and not really where we want to go. Ueshiba had a better, more refined idea than Tohei-even though Tohei had a lot of power.

When it comes to why modern Aikido-ka shying away from power...
a. Because beyond all protestations to the contrary-they really have no understanding of what was meant by *power* in the arts. They continue to think it is flexing and using muscle.
b. Because the teachers themselves who held this knowledge do not- or do not know *how*... to teach.
c. There are those teaching "Internal power" and "aiki" who pale in comparison to those who understand it. All they are really doing is muddying the waters even further.
It can't be helped.

Hopefully, the dialogue has served to increase awareness. As people get exposure, they are going to see the forrest for the trees and prevent themselves from getting lost in the weeds by listening to people who really have no business teaching aiki, and also those who claim to teach but don't.
Dan
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:13 AM   #68
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Depends what it's a sphere OF. A sphere of mass in outer space (i.e., relatively far from other masses) held together by its own gravity can be very stable - it may remain spherical or almost so for millenia. A sphere of water on a table in my kitchen, not so much.

Also depends what kind of stability you're talking about. If you mean, e.g., a hard ball lying on the flat surface -- it's relatively hard to crush (harder than a cube of the same material), but very very easy to roll (unlike a cube of the same material).
The sphere as a metaphore is meant to be discussed in use in the body. No one really cares about wandering off into the weeds with more mechanical models that appear here that help no one-including those who draw them and have nothing unusual to show for there "understanding."
As is often discussed, go meet people who have demonstrably unusual skills...and more importantly have students..WITH UNUSUAL SKILLS???? If not why not?

Everyone else? They obviously either don't get it, or have it and won't teach it, or don't want to know. They are the Tom, Dick or Harry who make up the bulk of the martial arts. If you want to be Tom, Dick, or the average Jane...go for it. But is that really what we want for ourselves? Who we want to be?
Dan
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:21 AM   #69
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Ki
The question then arises that if the balance of ki is meant to be in you BEFORE it is manifest between you and someone else "AIki in me, before aiki between thee and me" how and where does that change and engagement?
I contend that the *blending* everyone is shooting for-including the misunderstood four legged animal model-is incorrect and will leave you open for counters and being controlled youself. It is not and never was the aiki the Asians were noting as a deep level of control.

Cooperation
When is cooperation useful?
What are its limits?
When is it meaningful to create pressure?
What kind of pressure?
Against who?

When does cooperation cause more harm and hamper progress?
When is it self defeating and self deluding?
When is it antithetical to real martial skills?

Dan
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:37 AM   #70
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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On just this one quote... My work with a heavy bag changed dramatically as I focused on this. Still a lot of work to do, but I found the feeling of working the bag changed too. Power went up, power changed. Delivery came at odder and odder angles for me. A friend visited recently who I used to train with and he commented that on the bag I seemed faster than I ever was before. And how did I manage that being 10 years older, a bit fatter, and a lot more injured...

Dynamic stillness. Makes for surprisingly fast striking and movement.

Still trying to grok it all... Back to my rubber bands. And I need to find some time to get together with Gary...
All true and demonstrable of the basic attributes one starts to gain from a connected body. Yet another very troubling thing to try and dialogue with people about when they claim to have ki and connection and you watch them move and go "huh?"
As one ICMA grand master level guy said...."You cannot pretend dantian. You will be found out." So it is troubling for those with real connection to watch those who beyond all claims to the contrary don't have a connected body and show many structural failures while supposedly being connected and connecting to someone else.

Beyond the power model there is the aiki model and the very real attributes of spiral movement and why Ueshiba stated that the mysteries of Aiki are revealed in dual spiral movement. It takes Tohei's model to a far deeper level and expresses aiki or jins everywhere at once.
I will be at ADV in Sept if you can make it.
Dan
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:58 AM   #71
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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The sphere as a metaphore is meant to be discussed in use in the body. No one really cares about wandering off into the weeds with more mechanical models that appear here that help no one-including those who draw them and have nothing unusual to show for there "understanding."
Uh, OK. So what is the metaphor of the sphere and what does it mean in relation to the body? I have never heard of this metaphor and have no idea what it refers to, and I'm probably not the only one. I have no way of knowing that there is a metaphor relating the body to a sphere unless someone says so...

My point in responding to the question about the sphere with a comment about different models of the sphere is that -- it depends what you mean by a sphere and it depends what you mean by stability. I.e., more info is needed to answer the question of whether a sphere is stable.

Quote:
No one really cares about wandering off into the weeds with more mechanical models that appear here
Personally I usually find mechanical models clear and metaphors just confusing unless I already know what the metaphor is talking about. So I often have no clue what people are talking about until they stop using metaphors and tell me directly what they mean. I have met people who were the opposite.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 08-28-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #72
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

My thoughts here:
1. I have pursued aikido with the goal first to control myself and second to control my environment. As I have a tendency to say, "get your house in order before wrecking your neighbors." I like Dan's reference to compare and contrast being "un-throwable" and "throwing". For me, it makes sense that I should look first and foremost that that which improves me; and second to that which affects others.
2. The Sun don't orbit the Earth, its the other way around. When we "aiki", one center has to become submissive to the other. Whether this order is achieved artificially or naturally is relevant to training. What I understand to be "cooperation" has very little to do with falling and more to do with establishing order in aiki.

As a note to these points, I think sometimes we tend to focus on "throwing" and less on ourselves. I guess sometimes we like the false sense of power that comes from throwing someone (especially if they are bigger, or faster, etc.). Second, I think sometimes we mistake cooperating with our partner as falling for them. When I train with big center people, I appreciate that they allow my center to lead the dance, even though I am still train to create a relationship when they don't have to "let" me lead. These people don't "fall" for me because even if they let me control our centers I can still screw up waza.

Aikido does not require "cooperation". For those us us who train with cooperation we should understand that as a training aid that eventually we should shed. Similarly, to be unable to defend your center and balance as part of your training should also be seen as deficient and something to improve upon.

Besides, how could Phi and I possible fight atop the bamboo forests in North Carolina if we didn't have good un-moveable centers?
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:51 PM   #73
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
been there. done that.

always wondering why folks shy away from acquiring power? as though, power is a bad thing. perhaps they don't trust themselves with it? i don't have problem with power. foods and women, on the hand, are problematic.

question, is a sphere (3-D) a stable shape?
I hear it corrupts, but then again, I hear money is the root of all evil and I have generally taken the stand that I could use a little more evil roots. Then again I hear money can't buy happiness, but as one comedian put it, it does buy a jet ski; have you ever seen anyone not smiling on a jet ski?

I would think of a sphere as a stable shape, but they do tend to roll out into the street during soccer matches and get flattened, so maybe not as stable as I might initially think?

...just wanted to add I'm really digging this thread. Thank you everyone for great food for thought!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-28-2012 at 02:57 PM.

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Old 08-28-2012, 03:45 PM   #74
lars beyer
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I read the claim that certain people are or were unthrowable as saying simply that some people can be thrown only when they allow it, but can't be thrown against their will.
This is the final indisputable proof that everybody can be thrown nomatter how centered they are or how much ding dong they practiced !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqzunKZr3Eg

Watch, listen and learn folks !
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #75
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Uh, OK. So what is the metaphor of the sphere and what does it mean in relation to the body? I have never heard of this metaphor and have no idea what it refers to, and I'm probably not the only one. I have no way of knowing that there is a metaphor relating the body to a sphere unless someone says so...

My point in responding to the question about the sphere with a comment about different models of the sphere is that -- it depends what you mean by a sphere and it depends what you mean by stability. I.e., more info is needed to answer the question of whether a sphere is stable.

Personally I usually find mechanical models clear and metaphors just confusing unless I already know what the metaphor is talking about. So I often have no clue what people are talking about until they stop using metaphors and tell me directly what they mean. I have met people who were the opposite.
Well that's a personal choice I guess.
The Asians I have met who had unusual power- all use metaphor.
The Tom, Dick and Harry Western guys uses mechanical models.
NONE of the Western teachers I had personally met feel any different than every other Tom, Dick and Harry. I'll change my mind when I find someone who uses the mechanical models and actually has something unusual to share. So far its been a bust.

Six direction method imparts a sphere -in theory- but it uses the mind/ body in specific ways to manifest that feel. Think of one point as a model. There is no sphere, so talking about how strong a sphere is and the qualities of it are waste of time. You cannot make a sphere out of your body and if you try, you will fail in innumerable ways. Likewise there are innumerable Aikido people who claim to use Tohei's model or to understand ki who have nothing unusual by way of power. Their one point is sort of okay under dojo conditions but fails under stress. Using the sphere as a mechanical model is inefficient. Describing what the body must do to manifest six directions is an exacting model that is a success. A success with a history.
Remember, Ueshiba was talking about the body...and not the "spiritual" things people erroneously assigned to his physical principles.

Why?
The really wonderful question is why does six direction blow up the push/pull model? The answer is simple but very hard to grok at first, harder still to do. Most simply cannot see how you could be in agreement with someone and totally neutralizing them at the same time. Moreover what that does to your own body to strengthen it and how? And if you understand THAT then you understand that making aiki between you and them like the oft quoted four legged animal between you and someone else was flawed from the start. Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Shirata had it right.

There is no debate in person. So I prefer to debate in that venue, where teachers have to provide proof of their understanding in an inescapable venue under stress.
Dan
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