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07-08-2012, 02:17 PM
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#151
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
If it's all body mechanics then why bother telling her to "drive it through his head"? Why say anything at all? If it's all the work of muscle groups working together why does he need to direct her to perform any mental gymnastics?
Also, the idea behind unbendable is to perform it with a relaxed arm and focused intent (coordination of and and body, a.k.a. correct feeling or as Dan posted in #50 "controlled use of the body systems through intent"). When performed correctly unbendable arm can be held for an indefinite period of time. Reliance on muscles alone will eventually lead to the arm bending as the muscles holding the position relax on their own when they become exhausted.
Ron
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Yes it is body mechanics but the body can't do anything without the mind telling it what to do, the mind leading the body. The mental gymnastics are to let the unconscious part of your mind coordinate the body systems, lead the body. A lot of limitations are put on the body when the conscious mind coordinates body activity.
dps
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07-08-2012, 02:21 PM
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#152
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
Okay, then why do we need the word ki at all?
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Actually, that's a very good question.
From The Laws of Form by G. Spencer Brown:
"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."
We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.
So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.
Ron
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07-08-2012, 02:28 PM
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#153
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Actually, that's a very good question.
From The Laws of Form by G. Spencer Brown:
"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."
We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.
So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.
Ron
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It would be better not to use an ambiguous word like ki.
dps
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07-08-2012, 02:39 PM
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#154
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Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
Mark:
You've basically just finished telling me that none of what I've written and none of the questions I've asked matter enough even to warrant a response, simply because I haven't been training as long as you have. However good your intentions are, it's hard to see that as anything but insulting and evasive.
If you'd like to continue our conversation courteously, you can begin by trying to show me where you find the nails that need your hammer. I'll listen.
But if, as you seem to be suggesting, my words are not worthy of your attention, please go back to ignoring them.
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Matthew:
If I really felt the way you mistranslated what I had said, I would not have invited you to stop by and train. Your questions are valid, but your seeming unwillingness to keep open to the perspectives of others who have been down similar paths is problematic. In summary, hammers do not require nails in order to be useful tools.
Offer still stands.
Marc Abrams
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07-08-2012, 05:05 PM
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#155
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
Matthew:
If I really felt the way you mistranslated what I had said, I would not have invited you to stop by and train. Your questions are valid, but your seeming unwillingness to keep open to the perspectives of others who have been down similar paths is problematic. In summary, hammers do not require nails in order to be useful tools.
Offer still stands.
Marc Abrams
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Thank you, Marc. I genuinely do appreciate the offer to train, and I will stop by if I am ever in NY. I like to think that I am open to the perspectives of others--but I think it would kill the conversation if I left those perspective unchallenged.
You make a fair point about the hammer.
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07-08-2012, 06:33 PM
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#156
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Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
Thank you, Marc. I genuinely do appreciate the offer to train, and I will stop by if I am ever in NY. I like to think that I am open to the perspectives of others--but I think it would kill the conversation if I left those perspective unchallenged.
You make a fair point about the hammer.
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Matthew:
I am not asking you to not leave those perspectives unchallenged. Many of us who came to the Aiki Expo came to challenge what we experienced and left with a painful awareness as to things way beyond what we thought we knew. That same process is alive and well with me in my continued training with Imaizumi Sensei, Ushiro Sensei and Dan Harden. As much as I would have liked to have disproved much of what I have experienced and gone through, I am left with an awareness as to how much more there is to discover. Ushiro Sensei, in his profound book "Ki and Karate", points out that the major impediment in what we can learn is what we think that we know. I have come to the point where I don't have to possess a complete paradigm of understanding for what I am experiencing to recognize that with patience and hard practice, I will gain a much better understanding of things that I am currently experiencing. I think that many of the more seasoned people here have been trying to help you to recognize this arena.
Regards,
Marc Abrams
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07-08-2012, 08:22 PM
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#157
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
A lot of limitations are put on the body when the conscious mind coordinates body activity.
dps
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Why and how?
Greg
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07-08-2012, 08:31 PM
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#158
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Actually, that's a very good question.
From The Laws of Form by G. Spencer Brown:
"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."
We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.
So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.
Ron
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OK, so the term ki/qi is just a label that represents a part of a process that leads to a specific physical result initiated by mind? If so, it appears to me to be a very appropriate transition or bridge from mental to physical
Greg
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07-08-2012, 08:51 PM
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#159
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
Matthew:
I am not asking you to not leave those perspectives unchallenged. Many of us who came to the Aiki Expo came to challenge what we experienced and left with a painful awareness as to things way beyond what we thought we knew. That same process is alive and well with me in my continued training with Imaizumi Sensei, Ushiro Sensei and Dan Harden. As much as I would have liked to have disproved much of what I have experienced and gone through, I am left with an awareness as to how much more there is to discover. Ushiro Sensei, in his profound book "Ki and Karate", points out that the major impediment in what we can learn is what we think that we know. I have come to the point where I don't have to possess a complete paradigm of understanding for what I am experiencing to recognize that with patience and hard practice, I will gain a much better understanding of things that I am currently experiencing. I think that many of the more seasoned people here have been trying to help you to recognize this arena.
Regards,
Marc Abrams
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Matthew, Marc is a very eloquent guy and very direct at the same time, and he knows what he is talking about (he is also a little goofy, but we won't go into that at this time ) the point is (and this is not negative in any way) is that you are young and have a lot of opportunities ahead of you to grow and learn - do not shut off potential avenues of knowledge by discounting things at this early age simply because you do not understand exactly what is going on - I did that many years ago and essentially found out out later that I wasted 35 years of opportunity because I thought I had the right answer at that time. Things change and you change - get out and explore more if this is what you are interested in - IMO, if you maintain your current position on aspects of ki, you will not be in Aikido, or any internal art much past a few years from now.
Greg
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07-09-2012, 06:03 AM
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#160
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
Why and how?
Greg
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Conscious processes are slower than unconscious ones due to the increase amount of neural activity required for conscious thought to action.
"Reflexes require a minimum of two neurons, an sensory neuron (input) and a motor neuron (output) (see Figure 1) The sensory neuron (such as a pain receptor in the skin) detects the stimuli and sends a signal towards the CNS. This sensory neuron synapses with a motor neuron which innervates the effector tissue (such as skeletal muscle to pull away from the painful stimuli). This type of reflex is the "withdrawal" reflex and is monosynaptic, meaning only one synapse has to be crossed between the sensory neuron and the motor neuron. It is the simplest reflex arc and the integration center is the synapse itself. Polysynaptic reflexes are more complex and more common. They involve interneurons which are found in the CNS. More complex reflexes may have their integration center in the spinal cord, in the brainstem, or in the cerebrum where conscious thoughts are initiated.
Many people conider only the simplest types of responses as "reflexes", those that are always identical and do not allow conscious actions. We must not confuse these with "reactions", which are different from reflexes in that they are voluntary responses to a stimulus from the environment. For example, while the body has various subconscious physiological responses to mitigate cold, as humans we can simply choose to put on more clothes. This is a conscious order made by the cerebrum, not an involuntary response to a stimulus. This is a very complex response involving millions of neurons and some time to process the voluntary response. In contrast, spinal reflexes occur much faster, not only because they involve fewer neurons, but also becuase the electrical signal does not have to travel to the brain and back. Spinal reflexes only travel to the spinal cord and back which is a much shorter distance. Because of this and the complexity of conscious reactions, they take more time to complete than a reflex. On average, humans have a reaction time of 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus (2). Reaction times vary from individual to individual. Because of the higher degree of neural processing, reaction times can be influenced by a variety of factors. Reaction times can decrease with practice, as often times athletes have faster reaction times than non-athletes. Sleepiness, emotional distress, or consumption of alcohol can also impact reaction time."
From http://csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
dps
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07-09-2012, 06:28 AM
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#161
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
OK, so the term ki/qi is just a label that represents a part of a process that leads to a specific physical result initiated by mind?
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The unified mind/body doesn't require conscious thought to operate. They aren't standing side by side with the mind leading the body in any conscious way. Mind/body is an integrated, single thing. And while the word "ki" is a label it's also the thing itself. We all have minds, we all have bodies. But without having mind and body coordinated ki is not manifest.
Ron
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07-09-2012, 07:33 AM
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#162
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Conscious processes are slower than unconscious ones due to the increase amount of neural activity required for conscious thought to action.
"Reflexes require a minimum of two neurons, an sensory neuron (input) and a motor neuron (output) (see Figure 1) The sensory neuron (such as a pain receptor in the skin) detects the stimuli and sends a signal towards the CNS. This sensory neuron synapses with a motor neuron which innervates the effector tissue (such as skeletal muscle to pull away from the painful stimuli). This type of reflex is the "withdrawal" reflex and is monosynaptic, meaning only one synapse has to be crossed between the sensory neuron and the motor neuron. It is the simplest reflex arc and the integration center is the synapse itself. Polysynaptic reflexes are more complex and more common. They involve interneurons which are found in the CNS. More complex reflexes may have their integration center in the spinal cord, in the brainstem, or in the cerebrum where conscious thoughts are initiated.
Many people conider only the simplest types of responses as "reflexes", those that are always identical and do not allow conscious actions. We must not confuse these with "reactions", which are different from reflexes in that they are voluntary responses to a stimulus from the environment. For example, while the body has various subconscious physiological responses to mitigate cold, as humans we can simply choose to put on more clothes. This is a conscious order made by the cerebrum, not an involuntary response to a stimulus. This is a very complex response involving millions of neurons and some time to process the voluntary response. In contrast, spinal reflexes occur much faster, not only because they involve fewer neurons, but also becuase the electrical signal does not have to travel to the brain and back. Spinal reflexes only travel to the spinal cord and back which is a much shorter distance. Because of this and the complexity of conscious reactions, they take more time to complete than a reflex. On average, humans have a reaction time of 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus, and 0.15 seconds for a touch stimulus (2). Reaction times vary from individual to individual. Because of the higher degree of neural processing, reaction times can be influenced by a variety of factors. Reaction times can decrease with practice, as often times athletes have faster reaction times than non-athletes. Sleepiness, emotional distress, or consumption of alcohol can also impact reaction time."
From http://csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
dps
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OK, so the more we train conscious movements, we condition them to be more unconscious - makes sense.
Last edited by gregstec : 07-09-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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07-09-2012, 07:45 AM
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#163
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
The unified mind/body doesn't require conscious thought to operate. They aren't standing side by side with the mind leading the body in any conscious way. Mind/body is an integrated, single thing. And while the word "ki" is a label it's also the thing itself. We all have minds, we all have bodies. But without having mind and body coordinated ki is not manifest.
Ron
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I think ki is the thing that binds mind and body and is present at all times to various degrees of intensity or awareness - what really gets the mind/body connection clicking along well is the level of ki cultivation development within the body - at first, most need to make this a conscious effort and eventually it gets conditioned to be unconscious and more natural in all your activities. - just my opinion based on my ki/qi model.
Greg
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07-09-2012, 08:33 AM
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#164
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Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
at first, most need to make this a conscious effort and eventually it gets conditioned to be unconscious and more natural in all your activities. - just my opinion based on my ki/qi model.
Greg
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i thought the way to condition to be unconscious involving lots of spirits and co-ed.
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07-09-2012, 09:11 AM
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#165
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Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
i thought the way to condition to be unconscious involving lots of spirits and co-ed.
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Yes, yes, that model works too - but this is not a spiritual nor co-ed thread
Greg
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07-09-2012, 09:38 AM
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#166
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Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
i thought the way to condition to be unconscious involving lots of spirits and co-ed.
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Phi:
I think that you are on to something very important here! Please tell us more.......
Marc Abrams
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07-13-2012, 01:12 PM
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#167
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Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Actually, that's a very good question.
From The Laws of Form by G. Spencer Brown:
"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."
We name things in order to be able to refer to them without having to explicitly state their characteristics and the nature of their interactions with other things in the world around them. If you are conversant in Special Relativity, I can jot down E=MC**2 and you will know that I'm referring to the fact that a given quantity of matter contains a potential amount of energy that's equal to the mass of the matter times the square of the speed of light in a vacuum.
So having explained the nature of the unification of mind and body via words, exercises and practical demonstrations, and named it ki, I can tell a student to "extend ki" and she will immediately know what I am looking for and how to do what I am asking her to do without me having to explain it every time.
Ron
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Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
It would be better not to use an ambiguous word like ki.
dps
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It is clear from what I've written, David, that I agree with you (although Ron makes a strong point); what other words/phrases might we use?
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07-14-2012, 07:35 AM
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#168
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote:
It is clear from what I've written, David, that I agree with you (although Ron makes a strong point); what other words/phrases might we use?
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Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Actually, that's a very good question.
From The Laws of Form by G. Spencer Brown:
"If a content is of value, a name can be taken to indicate this value. Thus the calling of the name can be identified with the value of the content."
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If you pick a word that is already obscure in its meaning the content or value is obscured to.
Intent is better understood by the western mind.
dps
Last edited by dps : 07-14-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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07-14-2012, 08:19 AM
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#169
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Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 332
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
If you pick a word that is already obscure in its meaning the content or value is obscured to.
Intent is better understood by the western mind.
dps
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Folks
This I agree with........
One of the issues I have had since I had been in training long enough and had trained often enough with folks outside my local group to realize we didn't share common definitions and approaches was to ask "how do you teach extend ki......how to keep weigh under or down.....how do you transfer momentum....all of that....... The problem as I see it is there are fundamental exercises and methods for doing this though, like aiki taiso, sets of exercises like those from Allen Beebe's teacher, other sets that some folks have developed during the course of their training and sets from folks coming in from the outside like Dan Harden. The problem is that most don't want to spent the time to recalibrate bodies and minds to different approaches, feel that they "already do that or this what they already do" (maybe so...) or have developed enough work arounds during 20 plus years of training to see no value in exploring what they don't really know........
So maybe it was better before the internet.......back when we were isolated locally or regionally, separated by association, by style, by teacher.......because it still seems this is the case today.....then we didn't know what we didn't know and didn't have to deny what we didn't know and our exploring was limited.......
Gary
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07-15-2012, 07:11 PM
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#170
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,476
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
The word Ki is not obscure to me. Aikido, in my opinion, cannot be separated from it. When nage lacks Ki, they depend overly on muscle which makes their technique undependable.
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07-16-2012, 08:55 PM
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#171
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
If you pick a word that is already obscure in its meaning the content or value is obscured to.
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The word "ki" is a homonym. I believe (though I'm speculating here) that it's a homonym in Japanese as well as its adopted usage in English. Like all homonyms, the meaning of the word ki is derived from the context in which it is used.
To insist that ki have one and only one correct meaning is like asking what is the one correct meaning of the word "bank". Is a bank a raised ridge or shelf, or is a bank a place where financial transactions are conducted? Obviously a bank is both but the meaning of the word bank can only be known when it is used in a sentence.
Greg and I recently had a side discussion of this topic wherein we each related our views and experiences regarding the nature of ki. Though our views are diametrically opposed, we had an informative,cordial and fruitful discussion because neither of us insisted that the word ki had to conform to one and only one meaning. There was no obscurity or ambiguity because we each clearly defined the value of the content to which our individual use of the word ki referred.
Ron
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07-16-2012, 09:45 PM
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#172
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
The word "ki" is a homonym. I believe (though I'm speculating here) that it's a homonym in Japanese as well as its adopted usage in English. Like all homonyms, the meaning of the word ki is derived from the context in which it is used.
To insist that ki have one and only one correct meaning is like asking what is the one correct meaning of the word "bank". Is a bank a raised ridge or shelf, or is a bank a place where financial transactions are conducted? Obviously a bank is both but the meaning of the word bank can only be known when it is used in a sentence.
Greg and I recently had a side discussion of this topic wherein we each related our views and experiences regarding the nature of ki. Though our views are diametrically opposed, we had an informative,cordial and fruitful discussion because neither of us insisted that the word ki had to conform to one and only one meaning. There was no obscurity or ambiguity because we each clearly defined the value of the content to which our individual use of the word ki referred.
Ron
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Well, there are a relatively small number of sounds in Japanese - so everything's a homonym to something, in a manner of speaking. OTOH, the kanji for "ki" is specific, as is the usage in certain martially related compounds - you wouldn't mistake if for a bookshelf, for example.
Best,
Chris
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07-16-2012, 10:00 PM
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#173
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 824
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
...the kanji for "ki" is specific, as is the usage in certain martially related compounds...
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Thanks Chris. It's pretty obvious I'm not versed in Japanese, but what's a "martially related compound"? Can you provide a couple of examples that relate to the usage of ki?
Appreciated,
Ron
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07-17-2012, 12:28 AM
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#174
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Thanks Chris. It's pretty obvious I'm not versed in Japanese, but what's a "martially related compound"? Can you provide a couple of examples that relate to the usage of ki?
Appreciated,
Ron
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Well, the two most obvious would be --- "kiai" and "aiki". "Kikou" might be another...
Best,
Chris
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09-07-2012, 11:36 AM
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#175
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Location: Berkeley, CA.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 169
Offline
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Re: Ki to the Highway
are people 'hiding" behind "ki" (chi/qi) to avoid hard and practical training? Ki is like love or "life force", must be felt in action and in devotion.
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