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Old 06-05-2012, 02:58 PM   #101
Maarten De Queecker
Dojo: Aikikai Gent, Brugse Aikido Vereniging
Location: Bruges
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Itīs true that this kind of all out weapons practise is good for developing a strong, immoveable and pliant center for both Uketachi and Uchitachi. Afterall hitting two pieces of wood against eachother at full force is more constructive than smashing your trainingpartners spine into the matt at full speed.
But basic suburi and basic partnerpractise skills have to be mastered before going all out in weapons. Othervise it would lead to injury- were not talking about kendo, we are talking about weapons practise with no body protection against a heavy oak weapon with no tsuba.
So timing, blending (awase) and correct maai becomes quite important- because you donīt want to get hit
in the first place- just like when you are dealing with a real (sharp) weapon.
Lars
Getting smashed into the mat is kind of part of martial arts training, in my opinion. I actually love it. I'll be honest, it's hard to learn a technique (or a variation on a technique) when you train with someone you can't go all out with. I'd go as far as saying that it's harder to properly do a technique with someone who attacks you slowly than with someone who comes at you full speed. Someone who comes at you full speed gives you a lot of energy you can work with but at the same time makes sure you don't get much time to think. It's do or die, so to say.
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:57 PM   #102
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Lars,

we certainly do practice throwing with weapons and defense against weapon grabs. We do both freestyle and set kata buki nage/tori. I also find these greatly aid in my spiritual forging training. And, it goes without saying, we do always practice proper technique with weapons...not just haphazardly smashing our sticks together. I know you didn't mean to imply that...but sometimes its good to clarify on these message boards.

A long time ago these techniques were based on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu Jodo, but I am sure any resemblance to the original techniques has long since been changed. We claim no direct lineage to those esteemed ryu ha. I could be off, but our curriculum breaks down as follows:
38 Kihon kumitachi
18 Oyo kumitachi
38 Kihom kumijo
4 Oyo Kumijo
4 Renzoku Kumijo (continuation drills basically)
10 kumitanto
9 Kumitachi jo (tachi shite)
5 Kumitachi jo (jo shite)
1 Kumitanto jo (tanto shite)
3 Kumitanto jo (jo shite)
4 Kumitachi tanto (all the rest just kata)
3 Tachi tandoku kata
5 Tanto tandoku kata
6 Jo tandoku kata (although one is more of a solo continuation exercise of six moves...the other five are traditional kata).
*these numbers quantify pairing sets that require multiple variations in the same set, ie left-side/right-side movements, or gyaku vs junte grips.

In addition, we have our aikikai influenced buki waza which should be more familiar. These come directly from Fumio Toyoda in the AAA....which, I'm sure, were influenced by Saito Sensei way back when:
2 jo kata
2 bokken kata
bokken suburi (shomen, yoko, tsuki)
jo nage/tori
tanto dori
bokken dori
we also are recently starting to implement bunkai from jo kata 1 in an official capacity.

Anyway, just found my old instructors handbook while cleaning and discovered the weapons movements are broken down in there. I am not sure if they include all the techniques from the aikibuki class that is taught, or if its just the techniques required for aikido students. Thanks again, and good messaging with you Lars San!
Osu!
Adam

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #103
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Smashing two weapons together at full force...is just plain useless.
It might be Aikido, but it has not one thing to do with weapons and contrary to what you wrote...it has not one thing to do with dealing with a sharp weapon!
And again contrary to what you wrote...that mindset is more in line with kendo than weapons.
Dan
Hi Dan
I use the word `smashing your partners spine into the matt` comparing it to `smashing two pieces of wood together` for the purpose of explaining Adamīs point about rigorous practise, not to explain whatīs actually going on doing paired Aikiken and Aikijo practise- this would take forever to explain and is best enjoyed in the dojo. ( Iīm also in a continous learning process so whatever I write here I would have to rethink and explain differently in two years time so I like to stick with very basic ideas..

Keeping my kitchen knifes in perfect condition I know one thing- slice the carrot, not the finger.
Iīm sure you have very advanced skills when it comes to practising with a live blade and Iīm not talking about that really, I will leave that to people like yourself.
Cheers
Lars
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:41 PM   #104
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

I'm still a little gobsmacked about the idea that weapons practice is easier and safer than taijutsu.

I once received a yokumen strike across the temple full force during normal kumitachi practice. I had been thinking more about some advice I'd received about how to block than about keeping myself safe--a lesson there about where you go for advice--and the only reason I'm typing this now is that we happened to be using shinai that day. As it was, I staggered around the dojo seeing stars for quite a while.

Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:06 AM   #105
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'm still a little gobsmacked about the idea that weapons practice is easier and safer than taijutsu.

I once received a yokumen strike across the temple full force during normal kumitachi practice. I had been thinking more about some advice I'd received about how to block than about keeping myself safe--a lesson there about where you go for advice--and the only reason I'm typing this now is that we happened to be using shinai that day. As it was, I staggered around the dojo seeing stars for quite a while.

Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.
Just for the record.. Noone is claiming that weapons practise is "safer and easier" than tai jutsu.
Thats your interpretation.
Lars
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:05 AM   #106
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity. Someone is swinging a club at your head, after all. The idea that this might be the safer practice is... a novelty.
it's all relative, as in the theory of relative where you should never lend them money. if you notice, many aikido weapon works, folks don't really want to nail the other person, so they pull way back and not much intent going out. it's a difficult balance when you practice not to pull your strike, but still have precision of control and not doing slow-mo matrix style.

btw, blocking shinai with your head is an acceptable form of entertainment, for other folks watching.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 06-07-2012, 01:31 PM   #107
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Lars,

we certainly do practice throwing with weapons and defense against weapon grabs. We do both freestyle and set kata buki nage/tori. I also find these greatly aid in my spiritual forging training. And, it goes without saying, we do always practice proper technique with weapons...not just haphazardly smashing our sticks together. I know you didn't mean to imply that...but sometimes its good to clarify on these message boards.

A long time ago these techniques were based on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Muso Ryu Jodo, but I am sure any resemblance to the original techniques has long since been changed. We claim no direct lineage to those esteemed ryu ha. I could be off, but our curriculum breaks down as follows:
38 Kihon kumitachi
18 Oyo kumitachi
38 Kihom kumijo
4 Oyo Kumijo
4 Renzoku Kumijo (continuation drills basically)
10 kumitanto
9 Kumitachi jo (tachi shite)
5 Kumitachi jo (jo shite)
1 Kumitanto jo (tanto shite)
3 Kumitanto jo (jo shite)
4 Kumitachi tanto (all the rest just kata)
3 Tachi tandoku kata
5 Tanto tandoku kata
6 Jo tandoku kata (although one is more of a solo continuation exercise of six moves...the other five are traditional kata).
*these numbers quantify pairing sets that require multiple variations in the same set, ie left-side/right-side movements, or gyaku vs junte grips.

In addition, we have our aikikai influenced buki waza which should be more familiar. These come directly from Fumio Toyoda in the AAA....which, I'm sure, were influenced by Saito Sensei way back when:
2 jo kata
2 bokken kata
bokken suburi (shomen, yoko, tsuki)
jo nage/tori
tanto dori
bokken dori
we also are recently starting to implement bunkai from jo kata 1 in an official capacity.

Anyway, just found my old instructors handbook while cleaning and discovered the weapons movements are broken down in there. I am not sure if they include all the techniques from the aikibuki class that is taught, or if its just the techniques required for aikido students. Thanks again, and good messaging with you Lars San!
Osu!
Adam
Thank you Adam San
If you ever come to Copenhagen Denmark, please donīt hesitate to contact me, Iīm sure we could have some interresting discussions about Aikido and weapons and have fun doing Aikido !
Onegaishimasu !
Lars

Last edited by lars beyer : 06-07-2012 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Wrong spelling of name
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:14 PM   #108
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it's all relative, as in the theory of relative where you should never lend them money. if you notice, many aikido weapon works, folks don't really want to nail the other person, so they pull way back and not much intent going out. it's a difficult balance when you practice not to pull your strike, but still have precision of control and not doing slow-mo matrix style.

btw, blocking shinai with your head is an acceptable form of entertainment, for other folks watching.
Itīs true abut holding back your intention
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #109
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Itīs true abut holding back your intention
During partner practise offcourse !
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:58 PM   #110
Rob Watson
Location: CA
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Weapons are still, for me, where you crank up the intensity.
Intensity? Certainly the risk goes up but intensity should be there even when the weapons are not.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:00 PM   #111
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Yes, when I said you crank up the intensity with weapons I meant because of the risk factor, not because you shouldn't being practicing taijutsu with intensity.

In the accident I referred to, the guy I was practicing with didn't have the control to stop the strike after it slipped by my block--something else I ought to have known already. But of course, that's part of the base work of weapons practice--to develop that control. I figured out fairly early I couldn't learn the first thing my sensei was trying to teach until I developed it. I used to practice on azalea blossoms in the back yard... if I got through the practice without wearing out the blossom, I was doing good.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:28 PM   #112
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Lars san,

would love to get to Denmark one day. If I do, will make my way to Copenhagen for some budo training. Thank you for the kind invitation! Osu!

R/S
Adam

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:19 AM   #113
JJF
 
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Location: Vissenbjerg
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Adam

Should you come to Denmark you might want to consider visiting one of the aikikai dojos inspired by Nishio sensei. We do a lot of weapons work (aiki toho, ken-tai-ken, ken-tai-jo and jo-sabaki / to-sabaki). It's a bit different than what they do where Lars is training so it might be interesting as a perspective on how to interpret weapons in aikido.

See you

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:06 PM   #114
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Thank you for the warm invitation! I must get to Denmark now!

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:54 AM   #115
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Lars,
As it happens Chiba Sensei [as did most everybody] considered Saito Sensei a great man.Have you read Chiba Senseis eulogy in relation to Saito Sensei passing on the net?The volumes relating to Saito Sensei [Takemusu aiki]did much to bring knowledge of Riai to early 70s Aikidoka.So in a nutshell I personally admire Saito Sensei and his legacy.However Saito Sensei , great as he may have been, does not imo have all the answers.There are a few innovators in Aikiken /Aikijo still active.I simply mentioned two other Shihan. No more no less. Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,
Yesterday I found a very informative chart at Aikido Journal. The chart lists a great number of direct students of Oīsensei, all very important in their own right I believe, and I agree I should have found it earlier.
I feel Aikido is not solely a product of descriptive charts and lineages but also depends upon whether or not the tradition within each dojo is kept alive and kicking.
From my perspective tradition and innovation goes hand in hand.
All the best,
Lars

Last edited by lars beyer : 06-12-2012 at 11:56 AM. Reason: misspelling
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