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Old 04-08-2012, 01:49 AM   #76
DH
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Funnily enough I had a recent reoccurrence of back pain inherited from 20 years ago, basically a spinal Protusion in the lower lumbar. As it gets more and more painful I find myself doing less and less ukemi. And classes have now gone down to twice a week. It's not getting better, and I'd be kidding I didn't think it's getting worst.

Confounding myself trying to figure out what's wrong I decided to restart gym work which I abandon upon advise of my Sensei and Silat teacher. Well two days on the elliptical and weights have resulted in diminished pain. Thus I agree that the exercise and loading of weights does strengthen the body.
Ukemi is bad for your body. Period. Learning it is smart, continuing to taka falls your whole life is not good for your body. It will not teach your aiki. It will not teach you internal power, you do not need to fall down to "feel your teacher" and learn the waza.
You can learn power and aiki and how to use it, without falling down at all. And in the process some of the damage will be reversed through training the body correctly.
I continue to prove all of the above, (and not just talk about it) ...month after month as I meet so many of the damaged teachers and players.
Quote:
Now... Wouldn't it be a surprise that all the exercises you guys are doing in developing fascia, grounding etc... Really was as simple as making your body used to taking lateral loads rather then generic strength training. And that's all it takes for people to do amazing stuff with their bodies. Specialize muscular training and unified usage of those muscles.
Well, the very nature of the question defines the lack of understanding of what it is we do. Taking lateral loads is nursury school and just one of many benefits of proper training. It is far deeper than that and broaches the topic of the connection between internal strength....and Aiki.
Dan
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Old 04-08-2012, 05:02 AM   #77
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ukemi is bad for your body. Period. Learning it is smart, continuing to taka falls your whole life is not good for your body. It will not teach your aiki. It will not teach you internal power, you do not need to fall down to "feel your teacher" and learn the waza.
You can learn power and aiki and how to use it, without falling down at all. And in the process some of the damage will be reversed through training the body correctly.
I continue to prove all of the above, (and not just talk about it) ...month after month as I meet so many of the damaged teachers and players.

Well, the very nature of the question defines the lack of understanding of what it is we do. Taking lateral loads is nursury school and just one of many benefits of proper training. It is far deeper than that and broaches the topic of the connection between internal strength....and Aiki.
Dan
See that's where I think differently, but I don't have facts to prove this just observation.

1st, ukemi is bad for you only if it's done improperly. I think people with good ukemi can last their lifetime on the mat without getting injury and pain. It's just when we make mistakes and go rigid, or resist, or try too hard that we get injuries. Relaxed ukemi and we can see quite a few old sensei's taking this still, allows them to train well without pain even today. Movement from the center and a relaxed body almost always result in better ukemi. And we can see this not just in aikido, but in Systema, in kobudo, in wushu, in Silat. And I don't know for how long, but in Parkour you see crazy ukemi that did not just come over night, but through intense physical training and good technique. Anyone doing what they do without those two ingredients would certainly get injured if not fatally, quite seriously.

2. I still see internal strength as different to Aiki. In my limited exposure, I feel internal strength as 'internalized power' which is atypical of Chinese soft arts. Whereas Aiki as something which occurs from outside. In effect, internal skill is you and Aiki is others...

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-08-2012, 05:25 AM   #78
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Re: Elbow Power

Show me someone doing park our in there 50s or 60s. I'm with Dan on this one. I'm decent at ukemi, but don't see the point on doing it as it jacks me up and don't see where it is necessary to learn anything of value at this point.

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Old 04-08-2012, 06:10 AM   #79
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Re: Elbow Power

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Show me someone doing park our in there 50s or 60s. I'm with Dan on this one. I'm decent at ukemi, but don't see the point on doing it as it jacks me up and don't see where it is necessary to learn anything of value at this point.
Off topic so forgive the digression, but Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei is in his 70's and still takes koshinage ukemi, as well as doing some of the most effortless suwari waza I've seen. I'd say I have to agree w/ Abasan, about the Ukemi bit.

I'm also a bit confused by the varying definitions relating to IS & AIKI. are they the same, related or different?

Joe
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:11 AM   #80
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Re: Elbow Power

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Joseph Bowen wrote: View Post
Off topic so forgive the digression, but Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei is in his 70's and still takes koshinage ukemi, as well as doing some of the most effortless suwari waza I've seen. I'd say I have to agree w/ Abasan, about the Ukemi bit.

I'm also a bit confused by the varying definitions relating to IS & AIKI. are they the same, related or different?

Joe
Well, I've met too many, read the stories of too many, felt too many teachers and students with wrecked bodies to agree with you. Shoulders, a mess, backs a mess, knees a mess, a couple with hip problems.
If you want to argue percentages, it still doesn't change the model, the percentages would tell you that repeated falls -no matter how good you think you are-are not good for you. Then again, so says every PT and sport therapist I know, and for some strange reason the ones who were damaged know as well.
Dan
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:13 AM   #81
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Re: Elbow Power

Dear All,
I take the view that having a good ukemi is vital and useful to be able to do. I also think that it is not always the case that you have to use ukemi in training.i think knowing both methods is good .DH makes the point that you can feel your partners power or lack of without doing a ukemi. Until very recently I used to take ukemi, I have cut back on this and rarely do I breakfall. This does not stop me from feeling my partners kokyu./kuzushi. If you take someone with a bad back and throw the person around I do not think the back problem will improve.On the other hand stretching and assisting your partner in a controlled manner can in some cases prove beneficial.I try and utilise ukemi more than falling ,more like body conditioning .My view is both D,H. and the other contributors viewpoints have merit.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:23 AM   #82
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I've met too many, read the stories of too many, felt too many teachers and students with wrecked bodies to agree with you. Shoulders, a mess, backs a mess, knees a mess, a couple with hip problems.
If you want to argue percentages, it still doesn't change the model, the percentages would tell you that repeated falls -no matter how good you think you are-are not good for you. Then again, so says every PT and sport therapist I know, and for some strange reason the ones who were damaged know as well.
Dan
Dear Dan
Taking years of impact doing ukemi can certainly injure or damage your body.Knees /shoulders and hip s are usually the areas that cause pain. Suwariwaza in particular does your knees in.The occasional Shiho Nage wrenched shoulder/elbow joint also can be a pain[literally].Your body has to last you the rest of your life, so you have to use your head and look for ways of lessening the chances of damage to your body.Of course the young turks think they will be the same at 75 as they are at 20 years old. In their dreams . Hope you are well.Happy Easter to one and all. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:24 PM   #83
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Re: Elbow Power

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear All,
I take the view that having a good ukemi is vital and useful to be able to do. I also think that it is not always the case that you have to use ukemi in training.i think knowing both methods is good .DH makes the point that you can feel your partners power or lack of without doing a ukemi. Until very recently I used to take ukemi, I have cut back on this and rarely do I breakfall. This does not stop me from feeling my partners kokyu./kuzushi. If you take someone with a bad back and throw the person around I do not think the back problem will improve.On the other hand stretching and assisting your partner in a controlled manner can in some cases prove beneficial.I try and utilise ukemi more than falling ,more like body conditioning .My view is both D,H. and the other contributors viewpoints have merit.
Cheers, Joe.
I agree with that statement though. That you can feel kuzushi and cause It without having to complete a full ukemi. On the other hand some moves just completely takes you off your legs that there is no other option but to take ukemi to save yourself. The only other option is to hang on for dear life and resist which is far worst for the body to my mind.

Still I can see merits of not having to throw your body around. The only possible negative might be nage won't have any practice of following through his techniques and that might cause problems later.

And I guess you won't Parkourists in their 60s anytime soon. You need a certain amount of daredevil and couldn't care less attitude to do what they do, and a healing ability close to teens to get back up after fails. And yes, there are plenty of fails for every successful video you see out there. In fact that's why there's kind of a split in ideology for the founders of Parkour and modern practitioners. They just wanted a way to move smoothly and effortlessly across an urban terrain...

As a way to get back to topic, perhaps that's why so many of us remain clueless on how to do Aikido. Because we still don't get what Osensei was thinking when he started it. Maybe a fresh and different outlook could open our eyes a bit... Thrivemovement.com

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:07 PM   #84
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Re: Elbow Power

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I agree with that statement though. That you can feel kuzushi and cause It without having to complete a full ukemi. On the other hand some moves just completely takes you off your legs that there is no other option but to take ukemi to save yourself. The only other option is to hang on for dear life and resist which is far worst for the body to my mind.
If this is true (that "The only other option is to hang on for dear life and resist which is far worst for the body to my mind") then the assertion that Aikido can or is meant to control the attacker without injury is completely false.

If the assertion that Aikido can or is meant to control the attacker without injury is not false, then you shouldn't have to be able to take ukemi in order to have a technique performed on you.

Which one is it?

And if it's a training method - than what does it train?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:14 AM   #85
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Re: Elbow Power

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If this is true (that "The only other option is to hang on for dear life and resist which is far worst for the body to my mind") then the assertion that Aikido can or is meant to control the attacker without injury is completely false.
I think that more accurately it can be said that "An Aikido practitioner can control the attacker without injury". If a practitioner is at a level where such a choice actually can be made, then that is all there is to it, just a choice.

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:24 AM   #86
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Re: Elbow Power

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
I think that more accurately it can be said that "An Aikido practitioner can control the attacker without injury". If a practitioner is at a level where such a choice actually can be made, then that is all there is to it, just a choice.
OK, if "An Aikido practitioner can control the attacker without injury" then there is no need for ukemi. And if that's the goal (I'm not saying that it is, or should be, just IF), then why are you training people to throw in such a way that ukemi is necessary - since that is contrary to the stated goal.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:47 AM   #87
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Re: Elbow Power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
OK, if "An Aikido practitioner can control the attacker without injury" then there is no need for ukemi. And if that's the goal (I'm not saying that it is, or should be, just IF), then why are you training people to throw in such a way that ukemi is necessary - since that is contrary to the stated goal.

Best,

Chris
Personally I am not sure that this is a goal. As to being able to control without hurting your attacker under extreme conditions, I believe that the moral ability to reject damaging him/her must be backed by a technical ability to do the same - hence the training.

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:52 AM   #88
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While I have had invites to Japan, China, and the land of Oz I have no intentions of going. So they fly here.
Why not? Is it more of 'not now', or 'never ever'?

I just attended Bill Gleason's seminar in Canberra (Australia) last weekend, and he spoke very highly of you when I had a chance to speak to him on the side.

Is there anyone down this corner of the world that you are aware of that has trained with you, or at least that you reckon has decent IS skills to learn from?

Thanks Dan.
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:58 AM   #89
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Re: Elbow Power

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Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
Why not? Is it more of 'not now', or 'never ever'?

I just attended Bill Gleason's seminar in Canberra (Australia) last weekend, and he spoke very highly of you when I had a chance to speak to him on the side.

Is there anyone down this corner of the world that you are aware of that has trained with you, or at least that you reckon has decent IS skills to learn from?

Thanks Dan.
I think he's just too busy these days - Hawaii's not that far from Australia...

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 03:02 AM   #90
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Re: Elbow Power

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Personally I am not sure that this is a goal. As to being able to control without hurting your attacker under extreme conditions, I believe that the moral ability to reject damaging him/her must be backed by a technical ability to do the same - hence the training.
I think that there's a real question as to whether or not that technical ability ever comes to pass (at least in the context of the big throws that are a staple of almost every Aikido dojo) - even the direct students of Ueshiba often mentioned how scary it was to take ukemi for him, and that was in a controlled situation with people who knew how to protect themselves.

OTOH, if people take ukemi instead of being injured - doesn't that condition your body (the thrower) in the wrong way?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 03:06 AM   #91
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Re: Elbow Power

Actually I don't think the goal of Aikido is to control the attacker without injury, that is just a hippy philosophy that was grafted onto the art by post WW2 public relations, compounded by misunderstandings and poor translations of deeper philosophies. The consequences of an attack are determined by the intent of the attacker meeting a correctly trained body. Wether we are talking takemusu aikido or Aiki in it's truest sense, the response has no time or space for choices. If there is an
ethical imperative, it is to do no more harm than necessary to stop the attack. Once again the choice is the attackers. Correct training in any genuine martial art allows for escalation on the force continuum according to the rebound or absorption of incoming energy.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:15 AM   #92
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
Why not? Is it more of 'not now', or 'never ever'?

I just attended Bill Gleason's seminar in Canberra (Australia) last weekend, and he spoke very highly of you when I had a chance to speak to him on the side.

Is there anyone down this corner of the world that you are aware of that has trained with you, or at least that you reckon has decent IS skills to learn from?

Thanks Dan.
I think the Aikido world is beginning to realize what was truly missing in Aikido as O-sensei envisioned it. Someday, it will be spread throughout the Aikido world. So, please be patient. Most Aikidoka in Hawaii still not realize how lucky we are to have Dan coming here consistantly. When we have seminars here with Dan, people came from Japan and the mainland to attend. Why not consider coming over here for a vacation during our seminar time frame. Just a suggestion.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:18 AM   #93
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Re: Elbow Power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I think that there's a real question as to whether or not that technical ability ever comes to pass (at least in the context of the big throws that are a staple of almost every Aikido dojo) - even the direct students of Ueshiba often mentioned how scary it was to take ukemi for him, and that was in a controlled situation with people who knew how to protect themselves.

OTOH, if people take ukemi instead of being injured - doesn't that condition your body (the thrower) in the wrong way?

Best,

Chris
I didn't understand your first point could you elaborate?

As to the second, if one takes ukemi, then it was given as an option ( perhaps unintentionally :-) ) by the thrower. Allowing ukemi is the kind of choice I had in mind.

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Old 04-09-2012, 03:59 AM   #94
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Re: Elbow Power

The teachings of Takuan concerning katsujinken and satsujinken also filtered into all Japanese bujutsu and flavored the emerging idea of Budo as a path of self realization. They are not two different swords, they are one and the same. In both Kashima and KSR there are techniques that involve placing the blade on the side of the attackers throat. The choice to advance or stop is the attackers. This concept is in accordance technically and spiritually with "Divine Will" as expressed in some of the doka.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:35 AM   #95
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Re: Elbow Power

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In both Kashima and KSR there are techniques that involve placing the blade on the side of the attackers throat. The choice to advance or stop is the attackers
Thus the moral and psychological burden of killing is relived. How does this relate to unarmed conflict?

Last edited by sorokod : 04-09-2012 at 07:38 AM.

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Old 04-09-2012, 08:16 AM   #96
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Re: Elbow Power

Without giving a long winded explanation here are a few ways to look at this. Push on a door as hard as you can, have someone open it from the other side. See how far and how hard you fall. You did it, the door simply stopped resisting you. When you make tenkan in any technique you are no longer there, the only reason 99% of the time, that people spin round is if they are still attacking you, stop and drop, kokyunage nage, they fall you don' throw. Apply nikkyo correctly, no pain for uke, down on one knee, ask them to stand up, pain begins if you maintain your structure. These are superficial examples but give an idea. At deeper levels we would be talking about yamabiko and transparent power.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:14 AM   #97
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Re: Elbow Power

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
I didn't understand your first point could you elaborate?

As to the second, if one takes ukemi, then it was given as an option ( perhaps unintentionally :-) ) by the thrower. Allowing ukemi is the kind of choice I had in mind.
My point was, I'm not sure that technical ability really gets to the point where you can control a resistant attacker without injury.

If they have to take ukemi than it's not a real choice, is it? Because they require a specialized skill that most people don't possess.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 10:15 AM   #98
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Re: Elbow Power

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Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Actually I don't think the goal of Aikido is to control the attacker without injury, that is just a hippy philosophy that was grafted onto the art by post WW2 public relations, compounded by misunderstandings and poor translations of deeper philosophies. The consequences of an attack are determined by the intent of the attacker meeting a correctly trained body. Wether we are talking takemusu aikido or Aiki in it's truest sense, the response has no time or space for choices. If there is an
ethical imperative, it is to do no more harm than necessary to stop the attack. Once again the choice is the attackers. Correct training in any genuine martial art allows for escalation on the force continuum according to the rebound or absorption of incoming energy.
Oh, I don't think so either - but that's the usual line...

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 12:55 PM   #99
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Re: Elbow Power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
My point was, I'm not sure that technical ability really gets to the point where you can control a resistant attacker without injury.

If they have to take ukemi than it's not a real choice, is it? Because they require a specialized skill that most people don't possess.

Best,

Chris
Me neither and as for the determined attacker with bad ukemi skills - they are beyond salvation :-) The nage may give them a choice between bad and worse.

Last edited by sorokod : 04-09-2012 at 12:57 PM.

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Old 04-09-2012, 01:03 PM   #100
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Re: Elbow Power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If this is true (that "The only other option is to hang on for dear life and resist which is far worst for the body to my mind") then the assertion that Aikido can or is meant to control the attacker without injury is completely false.

If the assertion that Aikido can or is meant to control the attacker without injury is not false, then you shouldn't have to be able to take ukemi in order to have a technique performed on you.

Which one is it?

And if it's a training method - than what does it train?

Best,

Chris
I've never heard of the assertion that an Aikido practitioner can control an attacker without injury. Yes not withstanding Osensei did his best not to injure guests in his demo, his own students suffered injuries when they failed to take proper ukemi from him.

Good aikido does not force injury on uke. It just returns the amount of force the attacker used in his attack. And if uke cannot do ukemi well, that force may graduate to something that is dangerous as we increase our intensity. Nage's only being nice when he slows down your attack.

Case in point is Ikkyo. There any number of ways to take ukemi from one. But if uke thinks that the choice of ukemi is his, then he'll be in for surprise when someone who really knows his Ikkyo lets go one time. Or better yet iriminage. Everyone things hmm, back fall or flip yeah? Until the guy lets rip and you find him doing a hula hoop with your neck, and your legs are making circles... Or bounces you of the ground and you find yourself flying forwards with your legs in front of you.

In all cases when I find myself unable to choose an ukemi, I just pray that my body would do something right when I hit the mat. It's always a happy feeling to find myself still alive after one of those. But in all those events, never have I felt nage was out to hurt me or throw me. It always felt like I got caught in a whirlwind and was loosed after a time... Does that make sense? The hurricane's not out to get you... You just happen to be on its path.

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