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Old 03-20-2012, 01:35 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Running speed is not strength. I did not say that men are better athletes, I said that they are stronger. Your example is irrelevant. Nor is the fact that some women are stronger than some men proof that women are, on average, as strong.

Take the same 100 men and 100 women from the streets of your hometown. Suppose that a river is overflowing, and have them build stacks of 50# sandbags as fast and as high as they can. See who builds the larger stack, on average.

As for the rest, I'm really not interested in having a philosophical argument about what is or is not "real aikido." Sorry. Enjoy your training.

Katherine
Oh I don't know Katherine - it could be fun.

Aikido should never be limited by its practice.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:05 AM   #27
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Here's a vid of me and my partner doing what I call strong ikkyo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51i-ay04cw

My objective is to simply stop tori doing ikkyo by clamping on hard - and stopping him doing it. Yes, I have told him to do ikkyo, and I am thinking, I am not going to let him do it. No way! Therefore, his technique had better be good.

The emphasis is on the beginning, not the middle of the technique. When it's my turn, the uke first doesn't grab hard enough and doesn't try to stop me hard enough. This is our problem is it not. Ask your self. And my secret, which is not really a secret at all, is to start a little bit earlier (time is important, and is never fair or equal) to prevent his strong grip. But the thing is, he must try to stop me, which is as I said, not normal in most Aikido. Indeed, they'll tell you, your stiff, relax. Idiots, if you ask me.

The funny thing is, if you train like this, once past the initial movement, tori's strength actually helps you do the technique and there is no way he can stop you mid-technique. Give it a try. And if it's too easy, find an uke who can stop you, and learn to 'get over it'. It's actually, quite fun.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 03-20-2012 at 03:08 AM.

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Old 03-20-2012, 08:07 AM   #28
chillzATL
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

<sarcasm>The practice of martial arts without a thought towards ever having to use it? I've never heard of such a crazy thing, especially here of all places! </sarcasm>

IMO, ikkyo isn't an arm bar, lock or pin, it's an arm control. Though the goal isn't to control the arm, it's to control the person (their center) through the arm. You do that by always keeping uke looking for their balance, either leading them out and away from their balance points or driving through uke and into that balance hole on the other side. In the spirit of practice we lead uke more to get them to the ground, but cutting that short and sharply dropping your weight into (not pushing down into them) uke as you have them at the edge of their balance, driving them hard to the ground, is the difference in nice practice vs. doing what you need to do to protect yourself.

When practiced that way along with a mind toward the proper internal structure/coordination (as always, right?), you have something that not only explores the principles that exist in the techniques and in us when doing them, but also develop a feel for how to actually apply those principles outside of the technique. Just as I'm trying to feel whether or not I have uke at the edge of their balance, uke should be feeling for when they have it back and should be looking to stand up and counter me at any chance they get within the flow of the technique. Those same priciples are applicable to most any stand up grappling situation, though as the skill level of the person increases the window to capitalize on those things shrinks dramatically and your ability to maintain the internal pricinples of the art become way more important than the external ones. IMO aikido practice needs all of those things to really be everything is can be. You see too much practice where uke could easily stand up and reclaim their center, but they don't and IMO that's completely counterproductive to any focus on the internal principles that you might have, regardless of whether you're interested in ever using it or not. You're getting neither an internal workout nor an internal or external improvement in skill.

Last edited by chillzATL : 03-20-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:32 AM   #29
kewms
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Oh I don't know Katherine - it could be fun.

Aikido should never be limited by its practice.
Already had that conversation too many times. Life is too short. -- Katherine
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:56 AM   #30
phitruong
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
And my secret, which is not really a secret at all, is to start a little bit earlier (time is important, and is never fair or equal) to prevent his strong grip. But the thing is, he must try to stop me, which is as I said, not normal in most Aikido. Indeed, they'll tell you, your stiff, relax. Idiots, if you ask me.
Rupert, not timing. i have seen Ikeda sensei done it with uke claimed down on one of his finger and he was still able to do it. he didn't try to move the arm. he moved you. i might be able to do it with 2 fingers, on a good day.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:22 AM   #31
chillzATL
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i might be able to do it with 2 fingers, on a good day.
depending on kimchi intake?
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #32
Michael Douglas
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Ikkyo proactively

Already been done, but I was amazed to read such codswallop.
Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
It is not a biological fact that men are stronger then women.
Yeah it is, they are.

Anyway, ikkyo.
Someone mentioned Saito's school as doing proper ikkyo, the one where Nage smacks Uke in the face as a bait to get an arm to do ikkyo on. (Details may vary )
Are there other schools and traditions which also do that version?
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:50 PM   #33
chillzATL
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Re: Ikkyo proactively

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Anyway, ikkyo.
Someone mentioned Saito's school as doing proper ikkyo, the one where Nage smacks Uke in the face as a bait to get an arm to do ikkyo on. (Details may vary )
Are there other schools and traditions which also do that version?
worked out with a local aikikai dojo that does that and I'm not a fan.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:31 PM   #34
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post

IMO, ikkyo isn't an arm bar, lock or pin, it's an arm control. Though the goal isn't to control the arm, it's to control the person (their center) through the arm. You do that by always keeping uke looking for their balance, either leading them out and away from their balance points or driving through uke and into that balance hole on the other side. In the spirit of practice we lead uke more to get them to the ground, but cutting that short and sharply dropping your weight into (not pushing down into them) uke as you have them at the edge of their balance, driving them hard to the ground, is the difference in nice practice vs. doing what you need to do to protect yourself.

When practiced that way along with a mind toward the proper internal structure/coordination (as always, right?), you have something that not only explores the principles that exist in the techniques and in us when doing them, but also develop a feel for how to actually apply those principles outside of the technique. Just as I'm trying to feel whether or not I have uke at the edge of their balance, uke should be feeling for when they have it back and should be looking to stand up and counter me at any chance they get within the flow of the technique. Those same priciples are applicable to most any stand up grappling situation, though as the skill level of the person increases the window to capitalize on those things shrinks dramatically and your ability to maintain the internal pricinples of the art become way more important than the external ones. (...)
Great post. That's it.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:55 PM   #35
Basia Halliop
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Tom, that's not what average means. It just isn't. The word average has a specific meaning.

The word 'average' in no way implies even slightly anything about the distribution within the group for which the average is being taken. The distribution within each group can very easily be (and often is) far bigger than the difference between the averages of each group.

E.g. take height, as it's more visible. If you measure 100 men, they will have many different heights. One man will be the tallest, one will be the shortest, and the rest in between. You can find the average height (we can use the most common kind of average which is a 'mean' = add all their heights and divide by the number of men).

Do the same for 100 women. A lot of the women will be taller than a lot of the men. But the average height for the male group will be bigger than the average height for the female group. And in the case of height, this difference will not be as big as the difference between the tallest and shortest man, but there will be a difference.

Or line up all 200 people by height from shortest to tallest. The men and women will be all mixed up with men and women at both ends of the line. But at the front of the line will be lots of women and fewer men, and at the end of the line will be lots of men and very few women.

That's the thing about statistics. They apply to groups. They don't have any meaning applied to individuals. Otherwise you would be 49% male, 1/3 chinese, etc...

So no, if you're being very very precise, you're right that the statement 'men are stronger than women' is not true, as it's not true in every case (though it's true in more cases than it's untrue, but still, it's often untrue). However, 'MOST men are stronger than MOST women' is true, and 'the AVERAGE man is stronger than the AVERAGE woman' is true.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:15 AM   #36
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
Rupert, not timing. i have seen Ikeda sensei done it with uke claimed down on one of his finger and he was still able to do it. he didn't try to move the arm. he moved you. i might be able to do it with 2 fingers, on a good day.
I know what you mean. But I say, in the type of practice I showed, maybe you should try to break his finger. And I mean, snap it. And if you fall down, then yes, what he did must be worth learning. It's a different kind of practice. Not just holding. There are several kinds of training and you have to discern which is which and what useful purpose it serves.

I've just come from an all day long high school wrestling competition, so you might understnd where I'm coming from. Some of these boys have more dynamic aiki (really using their opponents FORCE, because the FORCE is real) than many Aikido sensei, in my opinion.

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Old 03-21-2012, 03:30 AM   #37
tarik
 
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I know what you mean. But I say, in the type of practice I showed, maybe you should try to break his finger. And I mean, snap it. And if you fall down, then yes, what he did must be worth learning. It's a different kind of practice. Not just holding. There are several kinds of training and you have to discern which is which and what useful purpose it serves.
I've experienced (recently even) and practiced this way. Really, once you get to a certain point and understanding in your training you can easily give someone your finger and invite them to break it.. and yes, really snap it.. and they will fall down instead. I've experienced it with my teacher, I've been able to do it. I haven't specifically done it with Ikeda sensei, but I would not be surprised at all if he could also execute such a thing.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I've just come from an all day long high school wrestling competition, so you might understnd where I'm coming from. Some of these boys have more dynamic aiki (really using their opponents FORCE, because the FORCE is real) than many Aikido sensei, in my opinion.
Perhaps. Despite some claims, knowledge of this type of stuff is hardly unique to aikido and I know of plenty of senior aikido instructors who can't handle this sort of thing. Or at least, who would not even try.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:39 AM   #38
kewms
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I've experienced it with my teacher, I've been able to do it. I haven't specifically done it with Ikeda sensei, but I would not be surprised at all if he could also execute such a thing.
I would be surprised if he couldn't, given his overall skill level.

And no, it isn't actually that difficult. My teacher shows it regularly, and a fair number of people in the dojo can do it to some degree.

Katherine
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:40 PM   #39
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Countering Ikkyo with Strength

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Tom, that's not what average means. It just isn't. The word average has a specific meaning.

The word 'average' in no way implies even slightly anything about the distribution within the group for which the average is being taken. The distribution within each group can very easily be (and often is) far bigger than the difference between the averages of each group.

E.g. take height, as it's more visible. If you measure 100 men, they will have many different heights. One man will be the tallest, one will be the shortest, and the rest in between. You can find the average height (we can use the most common kind of average which is a 'mean' = add all their heights and divide by the number of men).

Do the same for 100 women. A lot of the women will be taller than a lot of the men. But the average height for the male group will be bigger than the average height for the female group. And in the case of height, this difference will not be as big as the difference between the tallest and shortest man, but there will be a difference.

Or line up all 200 people by height from shortest to tallest. The men and women will be all mixed up with men and women at both ends of the line. But at the front of the line will be lots of women and fewer men, and at the end of the line will be lots of men and very few women.

That's the thing about statistics. They apply to groups. They don't have any meaning applied to individuals. Otherwise you would be 49% male, 1/3 chinese, etc...

So no, if you're being very very precise, you're right that the statement 'men are stronger than women' is not true, as it's not true in every case (though it's true in more cases than it's untrue, but still, it's often untrue). However, 'MOST men are stronger than MOST women' is true, and 'the AVERAGE man is stronger than the AVERAGE woman' is true.
Basia,
If you use average in the sense of mean (add all there heights up and divide by the number of men), you end up with a figure that is not always very helpful. A good example is the average temperature of a region. If we add up all the daily temperatures within a year and divide them by the number of days you will end up for my region with a figure like 12 degree Celsius. Although this figure is absolutely correct, it is also a tautology. But if someone tells me that the temperature on average (meaning not counting the extremes) fluctuates in a year between -10 and + 35 Celsius I get a better idea. And if it is a little bit more specified like; in the summer it is on average between +15 and +35 Celsius, then I can safely conclude it is a good temperature to go out camping. With a more "correct" average of 12 C. I can not come to the same conclusion.
So it is not just a matter of the meaning of the word average, it is also about the kind of information that you are looking for. In the scientific tests they chose deliberately not to look at the mean figure. As that did not provide them with the information they were looking for.
Kind regards,
Tom
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