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Old 05-02-2011, 06:51 AM   #26
chillzATL
Location: ATL
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

we would probably just lump it in as an ude osae or maybe a waki gatame.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:28 AM   #27
Kevin Morrison
Dojo: National Aikido Training Centre, Macken Street
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

The universal answer to "what's this called" is "it depends who you're talking to". Sankyo, kote hineri, outer palm lock, straight wrist forearm hyper pronation are approximately the same thing but you change the label depending on the audience.

The position you describe is natural but there are several factors effecting what and how we practise in aikido. The naming system reflects this focus in our training.
To illustrate this point, we don't give specific names to the myriad of hold down used on a opponent on their back because we usually pin are partner on their front. Judo is the opposite with names for back down but not belly down pins.
Aikido doesn't have all the answers, let alone convenient ways of referencing the answers, because it hasn't been asked all the questions.

Personally I'd call the position you described a "long distance arm drag arm bar" or "that position Alberto described on aikiweb." If I was forced to shoe horn it into an aikido label I'd go with hije kime.

ps the postion has been refined and studied in wrestling to taking the shoulder instead of the elbow. I'd use the label that those who are most competent at it use.

Last edited by Kevin Morrison : 05-02-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: note on arm drag
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:33 PM   #28
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

I have found something that looks like what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2d4xAwQNTU

On my browser the technique begins at minute 00.44 and ends at 00.50

However there is a significant difference: the video ends with uke facing tori because tori, facing uke, seems to exert the pressure leftwise.
BTW I think you can notice in the end that uke's hand is trapped under tori's armpit. That's what happend, yet in my instance uke's hand was trapped there nearly since the beginning.

In my case I exerted my pressure rightwise, and it ended with uke showing me his back.

This is the closest I have been able to find on a video, till now. Not identical but maybe this gives an idea of what I meant by saying it seemed to me like an Ikkyo done with one arm only.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:41 PM   #29
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Ok, still mentioning that video, at those minutes, I think I worked out what is the real difference - it was too fast in the video to appreciate immediately.

In the video uke spins his right arm around uke's right arm from up down and spins around anti-clockwise.
I span from down up, clockwise.

I think this is why i saw uks's back all the time, while in the video tori always faces uke.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-02-2011 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:46 AM   #30
Michael Varin
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote:
In the video uke spins his right arm around uke's right arm from up down and spins around anti-clockwise.
I span from down up, clockwise.

I think this is why i saw uks's back all the time, while in the video tori always faces uke.
The technique from the hapikido video works on more of a kote gaeshi/shiho nage principle.

That is not the sense that I got when I first read the description of "your technique."

Take a look at this video of a rapping [sic] elbow lock (I don't think spelling is his strong point!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No4EZZqwZgw

This is what I was invisioning. Except, of course, in "your tecnique" it is right arm on right arm, and was in response to a yokomen uchi-type strike. You would find yourself standing on the outside/back of uke after the initial blend.

In this position you can see how the off hand (left in your case) could assist with adding pressure to the lock.

The only problem I have with "your technique" is still the fact that you tenkan out of that position which seems awkward to me. But hey, if it works...

Now watch this video of mae otoshi, especially 0:14.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLzoIhSsPs

Was the application of "your technique" similar to this? Maybe uke didn't take a forward roll in your situation, but that is the way I imagined you applying the technique.

That is why, based on your description, I would say "your technique" is a variation of mae otoshi.

Last edited by Michael Varin : 05-03-2011 at 01:53 AM.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:17 AM   #31
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Hi Michael

the first video is the closest to what happened, only as in the video I proposed earlier, they still "spin" their arm around uke's arm so that the eventual pressure is exerted from the inside of uke's arm. In my case it was exerted on the OUTSIDE.

If you do it on the outside, tenkan comes natural to you because it seems exactly the right thing to do to exploit the point of leverage - with "my" version it is impossible to bump into uke as you tenkan.

Get somebody have his straight right arm placed static (for demonstration purposes) in front of you.

Raise your right arm to hit his right elbow from down. Your right elbow is now placed nearly in front of ukle's face, while your right hand is placed in front of your own face.
Now push uke's arm aside _rightward_ (you are the point of reference for "rightward") - you are now on uke's right side as if you were doing an ikkyo.

Keep rolling your hand inside and keep rolling outside until you have your right hand on his elbow once again - his hand will slap under your armpit - if it doesn't, it just means you need to step slightly forward (irimi a bit).

Now you're set to tenkan: your tenkan will not be impeded by uke's body (as it would be if one does the technique as in the videos), because you're lateral to uke, on his right side and you are seeing his back. You have free way to tenkan sliding along his back, and it is the leverage plus the tenkan what makes the projection.

I have tried it in a gym (not a dojo yet) with a friend and it worked exactly as expected. I also told my friend to do that technique on me, the leverage and projection was immediate and yes, I could not stand back.

I know it is odd that such a thing had to came out from a "real" situation, out of an instinctive behaviour, and it is certainly funny that the only techniques close to it that you see on videos look like it but spin the arm counter-clockwise whereas I did clockwise.

However, I'd like to add that it is so effective, that if you can reproduce it, it is probably going to become one of your techniques of election.

Despite in my case it happened by "accident" under sort of a yokomenuchi, you can apply it in a variety of situations.

I regret I can't have a video of it. The videos you post are close, only they end up facing uke, which makes tenkan impossibile. "My" version seems better exactly inasmuch as it allows a prefect tenkan namely gives to tori the opportuity of exploiting leverage AND projection via the tenkan tangent force.

If you can reproduce it, it's worth the effort. It's very effective, you have one free arm to do whatever you want, and you see uke's back all the time so you have full control and uke has no chance of using his other arm against you or to grab you as he falls.

Sorry to be so "boring" with these descriptions, but eveidently it seems difficult, without a video, to explain "my" variation and how tenkan is the obvious thing to do next. It works so well that it's a pity not to give it a try.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-03-2011 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:53 AM   #32
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I get the sense that when Alberto is finished with his entry/blend that he is still facing opposite uke and the arm bar style lock on the elbow is coming from below, right arm on right arm. That is not rokkyo.

The problem I'm having is visualizing the tenkan from that position.

I could be way off base.

This is why videos help so much.
Ok I managed to get some video of this apparently unkown technique. I am sorry it is still a simulation but at least the movement can be seen clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZXeP0OPyn0
You may skip all the initial blabber and move right to minute 2:15 where the actual illustration begins (or, more exactly at 3:30, though at 2:15 it is explained what that homemade training device is, in case anyone wonders).
Since I first found it out, I have tried it in several trainings with actual ukes and it invariably works very well (main setback, as far as i can see: absolutely not to try against an armed hand).
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:19 PM   #33
roadtoad
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

I take it you really mean that you block with your left arm.
No, that technique is from eagle style kung-fu.
Its very effective, but not aikido
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:17 AM   #34
roadtoad
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Sorry, I meant eagle claw style kung fu.
Of course, it still could be aikido, because o'sensei claimed aikido has about 14,000 techniques, and I've only seen about 300 of them.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:05 PM   #35
Tom Verhoeven
Dojo: Aikido Auvergne Kumano dojo
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Quote:
William Oakes wrote: View Post
I envision it as either a kata katame or ude garame gone slightly eschew.
I thought he described ude garami. But ude garami is done with both hands and in the second description it says it is only done with the right arm.

The last bit sounds like hiji jime or may be ude nobashi.
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:57 PM   #36
Scott Harrington
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

The technique you have 'stumbled' on comes from the 3rd section of the Hiden Mokuroku of the mainline Daito ryu school under the late Takeda Tokimune sensei.

It is called waki garama and is initally done from a single collar grab from the rear. I'm not going to look it up but I think it's a variation of shuto zume which starts from a frontal attack. Both involve wrapping the arm and then pressing the locked elbow down.

These waza can be found on the Seishikan video / dvd's thru www.Budovideos.com Just remember that Takeda Tokimune reorganized the Hiden Mokuroku so they may fit slightly different into the curriculum to older Daito ryu. Ask someone who studies DR for more info, I'm just a curious Aikido guy.

As you view more of the techniques of DR in video, you realize 1) they pretty much threw everything in the technique bag and 2) there isn't anything new (if you go looking far enough) under the sun.

When I started breaking out of the 'mold' of the limited Yoshinkan curriculum, I started coming up with 'new' stuff. Sure enough, I soon discovered this or that in other systems of Aikido or Daito ryu tapes.

Now, it's great to experiment, and there are always new applications of old waza. I always say that Aikido holds alot of the jigsaw pieces of DR but you have to go looking for the corners and the center pieces.

Scott Harrington
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:53 AM   #37
ryback
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Re: Does Anybody Know Whether This Technique Has a Name?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
The technique from the hapikido video works on more of a kote gaeshi/shiho nage principle.

That is not the sense that I got when I first read the description of "your technique."
I agree that the principles behind the technique in this video are those of a kote gaeshi\shiho nage combination,that's what i thought.And i also didn't get that sense when i read the description in any of the posts.In my opinion,if i got it right sounds like the technique that came spontaneously is more of a Rokkyo Tenkan variation where you lock the hand under your armpit instead of locking it in your own hand using kote mawasi.But you can also say that it has a Juji nage "flavour" in it since you "cross" your arm against his elbow from the outside in order to pressure to the direction it actually breaks.It could also have a bit of a Nikkyo in it depending on where the trapped under the armpit hand faces.If the little finger looks upward instead of the thumb, then i think i can see a little bit of Nikkyo in there as well.On the other hand maybe i got it all wrong...Haha!

Last edited by akiy : 03-22-2012 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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