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Old 08-31-2011, 08:44 PM   #1
ronin67
Location: Sagamihara
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Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:00 PM   #2
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Can you give us some examples?

Personally I have seen good and bad examples in most styles. When I move to a new place and choose a new dojo (which I have done a few times) I tend to choose the teacher and the training environment that I like best out of the available options, and not necessarily the teacher who does the style that I am used to. This has led to my aikido getting a bit mixed up, but it has also been very interesting.

I would have no problem training at a Ki Society dojo, as long as I liked the instructor and the training environment. For example, I live fairly close to where Maruyama sensei (ex Ki Society) trains, and I might have ended up training with him except for the fact that I would not be able to get to his training on time because of my work commitments.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:30 PM   #3
graham christian
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed
I would say it's because generally speaking many have come across people saying they are using Ki and found them to be ineffective. They thus equate these experiences with Ki Aikido. Think about it, how many have you met?

In any Ki or chi activity there are many who are for want of a better word'airy fairy'

Regards.G.
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:38 PM   #4
ronin67
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I would say it's because generally speaking many have come across people saying they are using Ki and found them to be ineffective. They thus equate these experiences with Ki Aikido. Think about it, how many have you met?

In any Ki or chi activity there are many who are for want of a better word'airy fairy'

Regards.G.
Yes, I have met a few who fell into this catagory, however I have met some who are very good. So it is pretty much a unfair gereralization you think? So you don't think KI Aikido aikidoka aren't as proficient performing waza/ thus translating it to a very street effective self-defense style, as compared to maybe Aikido organizations under the umbrella of Aikikai?

May God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:46 AM   #5
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed
Personally, i disagree with any claim that there are more than one aikido traditions. There is only one aikido, although different aikidoka, have different personal styles in the way they execute the techniques. For example, in an other thread i had a conversation about how different is the current Doshu's personal style than Sensei Steven Seagal's. These personal styles however, do not constitute different aikido traditions. So in my opinion what Mr. Tohei, Mr. Shioda and others did, claiming their own styles is wrong, regardless of their effectiveness.
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:03 AM   #6
Amir Krause
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Personally, i disagree with any claim that there are more than one aikido traditions. There is only one aikido, although different aikidoka, have different personal styles in the way they execute the techniques. For example, in an other thread i had a conversation about how different is the current Doshu's personal style than Sensei Steven Seagal's. These personal styles however, do not constitute different aikido traditions. So in my opinion what Mr. Tohei, Mr. Shioda and others did, claiming their own styles is wrong, regardless of their effectiveness.
So who may open a new style / M.A. in your opinion?
Who decides if not the person himself?

In my opinion - a new style is bourne once a teacher decides his way is different than the way of his teacher. He may then open a new style of the same art or a totally new art - it is up to him as the founder to decide. Then, others must decide if they wish to study this new art/style.
the change of the new way from it's predecessor may be minor, it could be some additional techniques, it could be changes in the curriculum and teaching, could be in philosophy or any other issue. It does not matter, once a person decides he is a founder of a new way, and no longer follows his teachers - that is it.

Amir
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:25 AM   #7
grondahl
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Personally, i disagree with any claim that there are more than one aikido traditions. There is only one aikido, although different aikidoka, have different personal styles in the way they execute the techniques. For example, in an other thread i had a conversation about how different is the current Doshu's personal style than Sensei Steven Seagal's. These personal styles however, do not constitute different aikido traditions. So in my opinion what Mr. Tohei, Mr. Shioda and others did, claiming their own styles is wrong, regardless of their effectiveness.
By your logic, you should disagree that there exists such a thing as aikido at all. It´s just Daito Ryu,

Last edited by grondahl : 09-01-2011 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:09 AM   #8
Mark Freeman
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed
Hi Ed,

Why would you want to go to another style if you are happy with the one you are in? If you were not happy with your training, then yes, it would be worth checking out others to see if it delivered what you wanted.

Of course ki-aikido can be street effective, or rather some people who practice ki-aikido can be street effective, as it is the person not the style that is effective. It may be the case that there is a higher proportion of street effective aikidoka from styles that focus more on martial application, than those in the ki based styles.

I think that Tohei's lineage and teaching methods, has probably attracted many aikidoka who are not practicing for the primary purpose of self defence. They are there for the many other benefits that are gained from learning how to co-ordinate mind and body, which is the main purpose of the ki development exercises, which dilineate this style from others.

I practice and teach ki-aikido, but not with the ki society. I have been on these boards for quite a while, it doesn't bother me that some people here are outright dismissive of the style I practice. I tend to focus on improving what I do, and be open to understanding the limitations of what it is I am learning.

No one style of aikido can be deemed 'better' than the rest, they came from different students of O Sensei. However, just because someone practiced with Ueshiba, doesn't mean they 'got' what he was teaching. Maybe they were not all that good, but because they have the kudos of having spent time in the same place as the founder, they are looked up to, as paragons of aikido.

Let others say what they want, if you are happy following the path you are on, and you know you are progressing along it, then keep going, keep improving, and be open to the fact that there are limitations to all methods/styles.

I have read here recently that the Hombu dojo, has little or no weapons practice going on there. For me, many of the high grade classes I attend are weapons based, occassionally with a live blade. So although some may dismiss me as an aiki-bunny, because of the style I do, I reckon that I would stand a slightly better chance on the street where weapons are involved, than someone who has little or no weapons training at all.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:28 AM   #9
gregstec
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed
IMO, most people who dismiss Ki Aikido do not understand and/or believe in Ki - they view it simply as a mental component like intent or will power. In addition to this, they have probably viewed or had experience with someone from Ki Aikido who thought they understood ki, but really did not and could not express it probably.

IMO, ki/chi is controlled by mental intent but it is an entity of its own and acts as the bridge from the mental to the physical; like in Mind and Body coordination. To express proficient Aiki, this must be understood and worked on - Ueshiba knew this as well as other high level students of Takeda.

Greg
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:31 AM   #10
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
once a person decides he is a founder of a new way, and no longer follows his teachers - that is it.

Amir
Oh yeah. That's why we are surrounded by founders of martial arts that do not exist.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:41 AM   #11
ryback
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
By your logic, you should disagree that there exists such a thing as aikido at all. It´s just Daito Ryu,
O'sensei studied daito-ryu and from that he created a system to teach the martial ways of the samurai, in a modern world where the samurai did not exist anymore. So the change from "jutsu" to "do" is valid, for aikido is a martial art for self-defence, self-developement and not for military purposes. It can be studied by anyone. Yet, techniqually is almost the same as daito ryu, is the goal and the purpose and the choice of not harming your attacker that was o'sensei's contribution. So, this is aikido, there is no other tradition. One can have his personal style up to a certain point (no need for another name though), but if you stray to much, it is not aikido anymore.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:39 PM   #12
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ed Duffy wrote: View Post
Should I go to another style?

Ed
This really seems to be the crux of the matter.

I agree with Mark. If you have a good teacher, then why would you want to change? If on the other hand, you don't, then yes, you should change. It's not about style though, it's about individual teachers. I would much rather have a good Shin Shin Toitsu teacher than a bad Aikikai teacher and vice versa.
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Old 09-01-2011, 07:09 PM   #13
MM
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
O'sensei studied daito-ryu and from that he created a system to teach the martial ways of the samurai, in a modern world where the samurai did not exist anymore. So the change from "jutsu" to "do" is valid, for aikido is a martial art for self-defence, self-developement and not for military purposes. It can be studied by anyone. Yet, techniqually is almost the same as daito ryu, is the goal and the purpose and the choice of not harming your attacker that was o'sensei's contribution. So, this is aikido, there is no other tradition. One can have his personal style up to a certain point (no need for another name though), but if you stray to much, it is not aikido anymore.
Morihei Ueshiba was born in 1883. The days of the "samurai" were long gone. Daito ryu was not a koryu then or now. And Morihei Ueshiba taught Daito ryu. He did not create a system. Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei created a system.

Let me quote Sokaku Takeda about his definition of Daito ryu:
"The purpose of this art is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick, and will not kill. It is completely for self-defense. We can handle opponents expediently, utilizing their own power, through their own aggression. So even women and children can use it."

Morihei Ueshiba, once the most favored student of Sokaku Takeda, was only following his teacher in his own personal way. Morihei Ueshiba added his own personal spiritual ideology to create his aikido, but do not get confused -- he was a Daito ryu aiki man through and through. Nearly everything he did can be traced back to Sokaku Takeda.

It's been written that even Sokaku Takeda dabbled into some spiritual ideology and also did some mystical magical things.

Research reveals that a lot of "common knowledge" about aikido is really not all that accurate. More myth than truth.

Mark
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:17 AM   #14
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
One can have his personal style up to a certain point (no need for another name though), but if you stray to much, it is not aikido anymore.
Who is to say how much deviation is allowed within a 'style' before it is no longer Aikido?
In all honesty there are Aikido styles that are more modern than others. Modern in a technical sense, but also more importantly in an operational sense. But this goes off topic...
I have never actually practised Ki-aikido or knowingly worked with someone that did. I did watch several vids, but was not too impressed. All too often the pushing head-while-stting-on-the-floor, you-cannot-lift-from-the-floor and unbendable arm are shown. That is just mechanics, plain and simple. We spent 5 minutes a year on this because there is always someone new who asks. Old movies of Tohei just show Aikido as O Sensei taught him.

Again, it is not better, nor worse, just different training methods.
Funny thing is that at my old dojo two students left and went to practise Ki-Aikido because the current style was too hard...this was Suganuma style Aikido. Just plain traditional Aikikai...
...eye of the beholder thing I guess...

I am afraid the Ki-Aikido society tries to stand out so much they get a lot of interest from other 'styles' what the fuss is about. Under close scrutiny nothing special is shown, so the society gets burned. Hate? no, not hate.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:34 AM   #15
Gorgeous George
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

I don't hate Ki Aikido: I just don't rate it.
I've tried to find out about it - i've looked for videos on YouTube, and there isn't much; I also found out that if you want some videos of the techniques/syllabus, you have to be a certified instructor in order to buy them (at a very high price) from the Ki Aikido HQ.
So I have the impression it's very secretive, and profit-driven...like scientology is.

Then there's the videos I have seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGH--Z6RVc

Not that i'm an expert, but the ukemi looks...not so good. It looks like there is never atari/musubi, and with regards to the irimi-nage ukemi in particular: why are they going flying off in a straight line?
I've always been taught - by various teachers, in various styles - that you try and keep close to nage during that (and most other, for that matter) throw: it's the safest place.

Also: the ukes are never stretched - they never get onto their toes; so how can I believe that they're connected to nage, and not just falling down when prompted?

This is what I encountered when I went to a Ki Aikido class: the guy had me in ikkyo, and was just walking around the mat, unable to move me to the floor; eventually, he said "Feel free to go down..." - I said i'd go down if he caused me to (which is, y'know, what an aikido technique does...), to which a dan grade who was practicing with us got all shitty and said "That's not how we practice.".
...shouldn't she have stepped in while he was struggling, and showed him how to effect the technique?

Then when I was training kata dori-nikkyo, the instructor said that when you are grabbed, you don't perform an atemi: no...you raise your hand up towards uke's face, 'With a big wave of energy.' (Ki balls...?).
I'm all for getting abstract and into the philosophy, but I think these Ki people don't know much about budo/aikido, and prefer purely 'spiritual' pursuits - so that's how they practice aikido; they don't understand the whole 'Stopping violence with the spear.': the point of aikido (as I understand it) is not never hurting someone - it's doing the minimum harm possible while doing the right thing/protecting others.
I'm all for resolving things amicably - but some people will never listen: try talking to a drunk, or George Bush, so you might actually have to deal with somebody in a non-verbal/'spiritual' way in life.

This is a foreign language documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_uG_tCdID8

...about eight minutes in, the dan grades are training; the ukemi is stuff I got told off for when I was a beginner: the attack is slow, half-hearted; they don't stay connected when their wrist is taken: they leave their back exposed in kote-gaeshi, then just collapse...where's the aiki in that? No connection.
And isn't it unhealthy to receive like that - with just your wrist, as opposed to with your entire body?

I've only been training a few years, but only the other night I was told off for collapsing as uke, and leaving myself exposed to strikes.
These are dan grades, and nobody says nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

Again with the ukemi...it's embarrassing.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:20 AM   #16
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

What's that at 4:38? A push test? My kids push me harder than that.
The ribbon work is pretty devastating though.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:22 AM   #17
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Personally, i disagree with any claim that there are more than one aikido traditions. There is only one aikido, although different aikidoka, have different personal styles in the way they execute the techniques. For example, in an other thread i had a conversation about how different is the current Doshu's personal style than Sensei Steven Seagal's. These personal styles however, do not constitute different aikido traditions. So in my opinion what Mr. Tohei, Mr. Shioda and others did, claiming their own styles is wrong, regardless of their effectiveness.
It isn't really about how individual practitioners execute techniques. It is about how the training differs, how the art is transmitted. I am not sure if you intend for your post to be as hyperbolic as it sounds but the fact that ki society, yoshinkan. iwama, and mainline Aikido have differences in training methodology is patently obvious. That's what is meant by "different style."
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:25 AM   #18
Abasan
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Maybe a lot of people see Ki Aikido as airy fairy. Some old timers even dismiss Tohei Sensei as a strong guy, but with a crazy head...

Plus yeah you do get a lot of wannabe's and bad examples out there. So what? You get that from anything really, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, DR, etc... Doesn't mean one or two bad examples and the whole organisation is doomed.

Personally it'll all boil down back to the person. Aikido is not a badge you can wear. You can't buy talent, skill.

I've met amazing teachers from Ki Society and their splinter groups. My first school is one of them in fact. And yes, they do churn out some very weird videos people can laugh at. But having felt the man himself, he is not without ability. So there must be some reason I don't understand yet he does those weird stuff.

Its like this. I go to the dojo to learn, not to see if I'm smart.

So you found yourself a teacher you like that you understand and that makes you feel you can master this Aikido thing soon enough. That's great.

I found a teacher I can't defeat, I can't understand and makes me feel like I'm down right stupid. I'm ecstatic

As for street wear... well, you really shouldn't 'Ki aikido' that or 'Tomiki aikido' this... you just do it, like Nike you know.

PS. You don't have to physically atemi the guy for him to feel something. And no its not Ki balls, just intention. But if you're too smart to be an uke, by all means stick your head to that incoming baseball bat!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:51 AM   #19
Gorgeous George
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
PS. You don't have to physically atemi the guy for him to feel something. And no its not Ki balls, just intention. But if you're too smart to be an uke, by all means stick your head to that incoming baseball bat!
That's the thing: there was no intention.
And as I said (and showed): the ukemi doesn't seem to make sense.

I think you do get bad examples of a martial art - but when you talk about a group/organisation (Aikikai; Ki Society, etc.), that's a different matter.
I've seen plenty of bad aikido - very little has been from Aikikai-approved dan grades; and i've yet to see a bad dan grade in the British Aikido Federation (an Aikikai affiliate I train with).

I've felt effective technique, and seen it applied to other people: it looks nothing like these Ki Aikido examples.

At the end of the day, dan grades are representing your school, and are the future - so if you give one to somebody undeserving of it, then your school is doomed.
As I said: BAF dan grades are really good - and the style is always evolving/refining itself.

FWIW...

Last edited by Gorgeous George : 09-02-2011 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Added a bit.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:55 AM   #20
Gorgeous George
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

What's that at 4:38? A push test? My kids push me harder than that.
The ribbon work is pretty devastating though.
Haha.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #21
gates
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

It seems that an apparent lack of martial effectiveness is a major bone of contention for some of the non Ki Aikidoka, but not for the Ki Aikidoka themselves.

Certain styles seem to lend themselves more readily to practical situations, but with a danger that the practitioners may become obsessed with the form of techniques and lose sight of the bigger picture. On the contrary other styles focus heavily on principles but can have a tendency over time lose accuracy and precision in performing techniques.

The great thing is that there are different paths we can choose from. If traveled thoughtfully and attentively these will get you where you want to go. For me the contrast in styles provides important lessons to highlight potential areas that may be lacking in my own practice, although they may not necessarily be the path I choose to travel on.

I respect Noro Sensei for having the good sense to change the name once the deviation reached a certain point (and with it any preconceived ideas from outsiders that it should or shouldn't be this or that way).

There are many paths to the summit of Mount Fuji but there is only one summit. Arguing over which path is better is distracting from enjoying the view.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:10 AM   #22
Mark Freeman
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post

I've only been training a few years, but only the other night I was told off for collapsing as uke, and leaving myself exposed to strikes.
These are dan grades, and nobody says nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

Again with the ukemi...it's embarrassing.
Hi Graham,

what exactly do you find embarassing about the guy's ukemi in the Kolesnikov clip?

You may not rate ki aikido (what dilineates ki aikido from other styles is the training method,) but it shares the same philosophy and purpose of all aikido, which comes from the same source.

I could deconstruct many videos shown on you tube and tell you where I think people are leaving openings, not doing things right etc, regardless of style.

I watched Sensei Kolesnikov demonstrate a class when I was only a few years into training. I found his explanations good, and his technique looked smooth and pretty powerfull. I have since met a teacher who I rate very highly, who started his aikido career with him over 30 years ago. He spoke well of him too.

It is easy to dismiss, without fully knowing. If you have been only training for a few years, maybe concentrate on improving your own abilities to a level where you can confidently dismiss long term practitioners, from a place of real ability and knowledge.

The longer I practice (ki-aikido for 19 years) the more humble I have become as to the value, benefits and drawbacks of my own style and the different styles of others.

We are all here on a journey of improvement. I thought my style was superior when I first started, now I understand that that is wrong thinking, part of the 'fighting mind' my teacher berates his students for having - the thing that stands in the way of aikido.

Enjoy you training, let others enjoy theirs

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:41 AM   #23
Gorgeous George
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

what exactly do you find embarassing about the guy's ukemi in the Kolesnikov clip?

You may not rate ki aikido (what dilineates ki aikido from other styles is the training method,) but it shares the same philosophy and purpose of all aikido, which comes from the same source.

I could deconstruct many videos shown on you tube and tell you where I think people are leaving openings, not doing things right etc, regardless of style.

I watched Sensei Kolesnikov demonstrate a class when I was only a few years into training. I found his explanations good, and his technique looked smooth and pretty powerfull. I have since met a teacher who I rate very highly, who started his aikido career with him over 30 years ago. He spoke well of him too.

It is easy to dismiss, without fully knowing. If you have been only training for a few years, maybe concentrate on improving your own abilities to a level where you can confidently dismiss long term practitioners, from a place of real ability and knowledge.

The longer I practice (ki-aikido for 19 years) the more humble I have become as to the value, benefits and drawbacks of my own style and the different styles of others.

We are all here on a journey of improvement. I thought my style was superior when I first started, now I understand that that is wrong thinking, part of the 'fighting mind' my teacher berates his students for having - the thing that stands in the way of aikido.

Enjoy you training, let others enjoy theirs

regards

Mark
Off the top off my head: what stood out most was the shiho-nage. When Mr Kalesnikov had folded his arm back, the uke was stood there, in perfect kamae; I never see any kuzushi - his balance is never taken - in the other techniques, either.

I might not have been training for long, but surely that means i'm more familiar with the basics of effective technique (as i'm always reminded of them when being corrected)?
Compare that shiho-nage, with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7F89cpU

Uke is stretched (has his balance broken), hence the throw is easily accomplished.

And as I said: I don't see that connection between nage and uke is important to these people; when he takes him down for the ikkyo, for example, uke is falling away from nage - Mr Kolesnikov has to catch up with him.
I was at a class the other day, where two people taught, then the head instructor closed the class: he said that it was good that they emphasised the importance of staying 'alive' as uke - that's what aiki is, isn't it...? That way, you can feel the technique, and you can counter if an opening presents itself.

I understand that people train a certain way for decades - and they like what they're doing; but I also train under a man of immense power, who frequently asks that uke is strong; tries to push him over; stop him moving etc. - someone who teaches people whose aikido I have no doubt about: people who don't spend their time intellectualising aikido, but just doing it; he remarks that he trained a certain way for decades - then finally understood, and now he actually has very powerful aikido.

I might not be very good at aikido - but then, i'm not very good at cricket: but I still know a good shot when I see one.

All the best.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:29 AM   #24
PhillyKiAikido
 
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Graham,

Thanks for your honest observations, thoughts and oppinions that made me think. Just want to add some questions for thinking and discussion.

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Off the top off my head: what stood out most was the shiho-nage. When Mr Kalesnikov had folded his arm back, the uke was stood there, in perfect kamae; I never see any kuzushi - his balance is never taken - in the other techniques, either.

Uke is stretched (has his balance broken), hence the throw is easily accomplished.
1. Is visible stretch a must when the Uke's balance is taken?

Quote:
And as I said: I don't see that connection between nage and uke is important to these people;
2. What is the nature of a connection in Aikido?
3. Is visibility a must for a successful connection?

Quote:
I might not be very good at aikido - but then, i'm not very good at cricket: but I still know a good shot when I see one.
4. Is it possible for us human to see something invisible?
5. What can we do if we want to get some knowledge of something invisible?

Enjoy Aikido!

Ting

Last edited by PhillyKiAikido : 09-02-2011 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:20 PM   #25
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
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Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?

Quote:
Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

What's that at 4:38? A push test? My kids push me harder than that.
The ribbon work is pretty devastating though.
Hi Patrick,

this comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed.

Mind body co-ordination (which is the goal) tests were devised by Tohei Sensei, to promote this aspect of aikido, they are 'not' just about physical pushing. In fact if you push just using the body, you are performing the test completely wrong. The test is made to establish that nage has his mind and body connected and that the mind is in the right direction. They are as much a test of the mind as the body.

The tester themselves must be using co-ordination to perform the test, it looks light and it is light, the idea being to be sensitive enough to feel for any tension in the system or wavering of the mind.

Dissing something that you don't understand seems to be common practice, which is a shame.

It is wiser to ask questions, or to seek out and try for oneself, than to dismiss offhand.

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm not sure about the ribbon though either.

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