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Old 06-02-2011, 02:03 AM   #151
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
You seem to think that the women are weak etc.
No I can assure you it wasn't that type of chauvinist stuff
If I mentioned "lady-like" things, it was not to imply any derogatory statement about women on a dojo - I apologize if I gave that impression.

If I said something like that, was only to mean that I have seen also many ladies, clearly fragile and not endowed with any type of phisycal strength or determination, doing techniques on men who were clearly accommodating them to their utmost.

The unavoidable consequence is that they will never know such a technique won't work on a resisting adversary: it's not that they haven't enough brute force (which won't be needed), it's that without resistance they won't ever understand there are leverages points to exploit because they don't feel them.

So I wasn't meaning that physical strength is necessary - I was only thinking that if you have to train like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ or like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related then you better stay home
Don't you agree?
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:46 AM   #152
Eva Antonia
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Dear Alberto,

I read this thread with interest and, also I don't have a boxing background, I partially can understand what you are searching.

I noticed also, both in our dojo and abroad, that there are two extreme types of aikidoka, on the one hand the super-compliant ukes with the flaccid arms, and on the other hand people who are looking for fight efficiency and are not afraid of the one or other bruise. Obviously, both types are incompatible; the soft ukes (and yes, you are right, there are MORE women among these) think that the harder ones are unduly aggressive, and the more rough ones think that the soft ones are absolutely unrealistic. I don't think that it has always to do something with skills, sometimes it is a question of preference.

When training in Aserbaidjan, I once trained with a woman of the feather-touch style (with hakama), and I just made my normal irimi nage, which means "smashing backwards on the tatami". After throwing me several times gently, she said: "You're doing it wrong. Irimi nage as you do is very uncomfortable for uke- I'll show you how it is when it's done on you", and she made a very brilliant irimi nage just hammering me effortlessly down. Then she looked defiantly and said: "So - is it THAT what you want???", and I just smiled blissfully and said: "YES!" Obviously,

In our dojo we don't have boxers, but some karateka, judoka and jiu-jitsuka. There is a difference in style and also in expectations. But I still think that you can learn something from every type of uke.

BUT - if in our dojo the teacher
- talked 20 minutes per class
- didn't allow us to improvise on techniques that don't work as foreseen
- ensured that we wouldn't have more than 15 minutes to really train,
I'd leave (and the others also).

Have a nice day!

Eva
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:20 AM   #153
Anthony Loeppert
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Location: San Diego, CA
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
So I wasn't meaning that physical strength is necessary - I was only thinking that if you have to train like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ or like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related then you better stay home
Don't you agree?
If it was an open question, my answer is YES!

Normally these videos would just evoke sadness... for some reason just free form typing here, the word "delusion" keeps popping into my head.

But here, within the context of this thread I'm LMAO!
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:33 AM   #154
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
So I wasn't meaning that physical strength is necessary - I was only thinking that if you have to train like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ or like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related then you better stay home
Don't you agree?
Ask Graham Christian

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Old 06-03-2011, 04:47 AM   #155
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
No I can assure you it wasn't that type of chauvinist stuff
If I mentioned "lady-like" things, it was not to imply any derogatory statement about women on a dojo - I apologize if I gave that impression.

If I said something like that, was only to mean that I have seen also many ladies, clearly fragile and not endowed with any type of phisycal strength or determination, doing techniques on men who were clearly accommodating them to their utmost.

The unavoidable consequence is that they will never know such a technique won't work on a resisting adversary: it's not that they haven't enough brute force (which won't be needed), it's that without resistance they won't ever understand there are leverages points to exploit because they don't feel them.

So I wasn't meaning that physical strength is necessary - I was only thinking that if you have to train like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ or like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related then you better stay home
Don't you agree?
How can you judge what other people get out of their training? If you'd rather want to stay home than train that way, fine, but why not let others do what apparently is meaningful to them? To me personally, it is not terribly meaningful to adjust waza-based aikido to boxing, but hey, if you want to do it, great, its your enquiry, not mine. Who knows, I might eventually even change my mind and like the results. Let others pursue their stuff.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:33 AM   #156
RonRagusa
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
So I wasn't meaning that physical strength is necessary - I was only thinking that if you have to train like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiRfJppQJcQ or like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related then you better stay home
Don't you agree?
Hi Alberto -

I don't agree.

Graham's knowledge of the principles of Aikido is evidenced by the nature of his posts; which when looked at as a body of work clearly show how Aikido can be applied in venues other than the martial arena.

If you wish to judge his Aikido then you might want to base your judgement on more than a couple of minutes of video.

Best,

Ron

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Old 06-03-2011, 05:47 AM   #157
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Uh, why two guys here seem to think I was addressing Graham? He has been always very kind, I always loved his posts, and he always sounded experienced and sensible to me, besides I have no idea how he trains - neither I am aware whether in those video there is Graham, but I don't think so.

Whatever, anyway for a video like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related anybody can decide, without me in the way.

Of course, if one finds that type of training benefical or effective or usable for self defense, or that type of ukes realistic, or even as a "spiritual" path worth pursuing - well, we're in a field that is so self-evident that any option for debate instantly vanishes. Once that type of training is regarded allright - discussion over

If that type of training is sustainable, and benefical to the credibility of Aikido - if those black belts are worth being imitated, we are hitting squarely the ball about why many persons are puzzled by aikido's martiality.

Nothing to add It's no longer a matter of me, you, boxing, aikido, thai chi, karate or whatever. It's a predilection that places itself beyond reproach.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:25 AM   #158
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Hi Alberto:
First off : The videos are Graham's.

Next issue:

Grasshopper, your cup is full.

Complaining about something over and over is like crying. You sound like a victim.

If you don't like your dojo start a new one or train in Ju Jitstu dojo or something.
Mary
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:15 AM   #159
C. David Henderson
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Alberto,

The contrast between your impression of Graham and your judgment of videos from his dojo is probably something worth thinking about, and seems to suggest things are not as you supposed.

A person who you find experienced and sensible when he talks about aikido trains his students in a way that you hold up as unworthwhile training.

Hum...What does that mean?

David Henderson
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:00 AM   #160
DH
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Alberto -

I don't agree.

Graham's knowledge of the principles of Aikido is evidenced by the nature of his posts; which when looked at as a body of work clearly show how Aikido can be applied in venues other than the martial arena.

If you wish to judge his Aikido then you might want to base your judgement on more than a couple of minutes of video.

Best,

Ron
I think both sides need to be respected.

If someone's Aikido has credibility in social interaction and life...then demonstrate it, and be comfortable in stating martial things are not your interest.
If someones aikido has no credibility in a martial setting, then why enter the martial arena at all?
Why get defensive when people with practical and real skills challenge the obvious martial errors on your part.

There is a great deal of hubris displayed sometimes that does the art little service. The good ones know well they don't have it in a martial venue, and they don't care and say so. The bad ones are unaware of their failures and thus harm the arts martial credibility.

Every martial art has faced the very real tactical demands that it is a martial art and makes no excuses for their identity and success and failure in their chosen venue. Aikido, almost singularly, makes no apology for its failures in the martial venue, and some of its less educated members are instead insulted or even arrogant in stating that their art has risen above the martial. Were that true, than it should be able to demonstrate extreme competence in a martial venue, and just how it has risen above.
If on the other hand, it has chosen to walk away from the martial venue, then it should embrace that and walk away from martial things like swords, Japanese clothing, locking and throwing and be comfortable with that.

I have no trouble training with senior members who were soldiers or bad asses in other areas and are very comfortable in stating that aikido brought peace to their lives and is something OTHER than a martial venue to them. But they are not the self deluded ones who think that what they are doing ...is...a martial pursuit.
It's as simple as the Karate kid
"Walk on road left-safe
Walk on road right-safe
Walk on road middle-squish, just like grape."


Anyone in the middle who keeps making videos like the ones just shown here, (and with a sword in their hand?? Good grief).... opens themselves up for more experienced and educated scrutiny,

You might as well put on a green beret, put on BDUs with medals, pick up a gun upside down and then lead it away from someone trying to grab it and then try telling a spec ops community that you understand war. They deserve respect for their efforts and hard won knowledge, so do martial artists.


Perhaps a better education about what "martial art" really means would help many people, Then they can be comfortable in their own skin and stop defending themselves. They can state openly that what they are doing is not martial and they don't care. You only open yourself and the art up to ridicule by imagining these things have any value martially and film it for an increasingly educated viewing audience. Aikido has many other positive aspects that directly benefit the community and those involved that need no defending
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-03-2011 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:06 AM   #161
graham christian
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Uh, why two guys here seem to think I was addressing Graham? He has been always very kind, I always loved his posts, and he always sounded experienced and sensible to me, besides I have no idea how he trains - neither I am aware whether in those video there is Graham, but I don't think so.

Whatever, anyway for a video like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsIyj...eature=related anybody can decide, without me in the way.

Of course, if one finds that type of training benefical or effective or usable for self defense, or that type of ukes realistic, or even as a "spiritual" path worth pursuing - well, we're in a field that is so self-evident that any option for debate instantly vanishes. Once that type of training is regarded allright - discussion over

If that type of training is sustainable, and benefical to the credibility of Aikido - if those black belts are worth being imitated, we are hitting squarely the ball about why many persons are puzzled by aikido's martiality.

Nothing to add It's no longer a matter of me, you, boxing, aikido, thai chi, karate or whatever. It's a predilection that places itself beyond reproach.
Alberto.
To think you didn't know that was me had me in stitches. It's all good. I'm not offended by your views.

I did however discover some charachters who were trying to put your view into practice.

'Like a finger pointing to the moon------ you know how it goes. In other words if you are looking for something then look in the right direction. The videos I'm going to assume you might like are quite raw and real and may suit you.

However, unless you take time to slowly understand the principles of Aikido ie: the circle, ma-ai, entering, drawing, motion, etc. you will have to that degree a tough time in practice.

The videos can be found on youtube and are under the name of Aiki-Boxing by someone who goes by the name of skinnymonkey.

I'm sure you can find someone willing to put on some gloves and allow you to practice and learn by trial and error.

In good faith.G.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:38 AM   #162
jester
 
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The videos can be found on youtube and are under the name of Aiki-Boxing by someone who goes by the name of skinnymonkey.
Unfortunately they have no clue about boxing. Their boxing skills are very very poor.

Get a real boxer and cross train. Learn how they think. Train with a Jujitsu, Judo, MMA or a Karate guy etc. You have to know how they move and why they move the way they do.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:45 AM   #163
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think both sides need to be respected.

If someone's Aikido has credibility in social interaction and life...then demonstrate it, and be comfortable in stating martial things are not your interest.
If someones aikido has no credibility in a martial setting, then why enter the martial arena at all?
Why get defensive when people with practical and real skills challenge the obvious martial errors on your part.

There is a great deal of hubris displayed sometimes that does the art little service. The good ones know well they don't have it in a martial venue, and they don't care and say so. The bad ones are unaware of their failures and thus harm the arts martial credibility.

Every martial art has faced the very real tactical demands that it is a martial art and makes no excuses for their identity and success and failure in their chosen venue. Aikido, almost singularly, makes no apology for its failures in the martial venue, and some of its less educated members are instead insulted or even arrogant in stating that their art has risen above the martial. Were that true, than it should be able to demonstrate extreme competence in a martial venue, and just how it has risen above.
If on the other hand, it has chosen to walk away from the martial venue, then it should embrace that and walk away from martial things like swords, Japanese clothing, locking and throwing and be comfortable with that.

I have no trouble training with senior members who were soldiers or bad asses in other areas and are very comfortable in stating that aikido brought peace to their lives and is something OTHER than a martial venue to them. But they are not the self deluded ones who think that what they are doing ...is...a martial pursuit.
It's as simple as the Karate kid
"Walk on road left-safe
Walk on road right-safe
Walk on road middle-squish, just like grape."


Anyone in the middle who keeps making videos like the ones just shown here, (and with a sword in their hand?? Good grief).... opens themselves up for more experienced and educated scrutiny,

You might as well put on a green beret, put on BDUs with medals, pick up a gun upside down and then lead it away from someone trying to grab it and then try telling a spec ops community that you understand war.

Perhaps a better education about what "martial art" really means would help many people, Then they can be comfortable in their own skin and stop defending themselves. They can state openly that what they are doing is not martial and they don't care. You only open yourself and the art up to ridicule by imagining these things have any value martially and film it for an increasingly educated viewing audience. Aikido has many other positive aspects that directly benefit the community and those involved that need no defending
Dan
Dan.
I like this piece by you. I do as I've said before understand your view. You however do not understand mine. (I believe)

Education is indeed a wonderful thing.

My videos do their job for me. They keep away those who wan't to learn how to fight. They show my approach is different. They show there might be something else to Aikido as well. Many people I meet personally have viewed them and and communicate to me. You know what? They are under no illusion as to if that's what they are looking for or not. Job done.

They ALL in my experience recognise it's some kind of spiritual aspect and more importantly that it's my way of Aikido rather than what they have seen before.

The only point of contention seems to be the use of the word martial and effectiveness. When I explain how it is also these things it's not really as a defence it's to show their is something which is martial and effective yet very hard to understand as such.

As many stories you or any one has about meeting people using Ki and finding they couldn't do anything effective on you so I have an equal amount the other way around. However I don't see it as some kind of competition or reason to attack other ways.

Believe it or not I have met numerous Ki people who also couldn't do a thing for real.

A bit like you say in your way of doing things, those that get it benefit. A policeman friend of mine who 'got it' benefitted and it saved his life as well as disarmed a gunman. Now from a martial perspective I call that a success.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:48 AM   #164
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Unfortunately they have no clue about boxing. Their boxing skills are very very poor.

Get a real boxer and cross train. Learn how they think. Train with a Jujitsu, Judo, MMA or a Karate guy etc. You have to know how they move and why they move the way they do.
Granted Tim.
But I look at it this way, start from where you are at and build. Also as I said you would have to be sincere in your study of the principles involved. Bit by bit. Why does everyone want to start at the top?

Regards.G.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:55 AM   #165
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post

Hum...What does that mean?
That I am a kind person and a gentleman?

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 06-03-2011 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:00 AM   #166
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Alberto:
First off : The videos are Graham's.

Next issue:

Grasshopper, your cup is full.

Complaining about something over and over is like crying. You sound like a victim.

If you don't like your dojo start a new one or train in Ju Jitstu dojo or something.
Mary
Who's complaining?
We're just talking.

However, if for you this means complaining, nothing to object. You are entitled to your personal perception.

Besides you're not supposed to empty cups that you judge full - I mean use the ignore function, in the worst case

I am at odds at times because guys here keep addressing me - at times it may seem rude, I guess, ignoring them when they start a post with the line : "Alberto" - see how many.
And I didn't even start this thread.

What about replying stating one's views on the topic rather than addressing me as if persuading me would be of any value? I'm flattered you seem to believe so, but I myself I am not inclined in the least to overestimate myself that much: the fact I disagree with an outlook, doesn't mean my outlook is necessarily better.

However, i am entitled to my opinion, and to my thoughts. And I find this thread valuable.

now, if only guys would stop starting their contributions here with the line "Alberto"... It's not me vs you, it's just about intellectual debate.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 06-03-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:15 AM   #167
graham christian
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Who's complaining?
We're just talking.

However, if for you this means complaining, nothing to object. You are entitled to your personal perception.

Besides you're not supposed to empty cups that you judge full - I mean use the ignore function, in the worst case

I am at odds at times because guys here keep addressing me - at times it may seem rude, I guess, ignoring them when they start a post with the line : "Alberto" - see how many.
And I didn't even start this thread.

What about replying stating one's views on the topic rather than addressing me as if persuading me would be of any value? I'm flattered you seem to believe so, but I myself I am not inclined in the least to overestimate myself that much: the fact I disagree with an outlook, doesn't mean my outlook is necessarily better.

However, i am entitled to my opinion, and to my thoughts. And I find this thread valuable.

now, if only guys would stop starting their contributions here with the line "Alberto"... It's not me vs you, it's just about intellectual debate.
Ha ha. Guilty as charged. Good point.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:42 AM   #168
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

My videos do their job for me. They keep away those who wan't to learn how to fight. They show my approach is different.
Based on this new information I must now change my evaluation of these videos to "devastatingly effective". Well done sir, you are a skilled debater.

Last edited by Anthony Loeppert : 06-03-2011 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:56 AM   #169
sorokod
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
A person who you find experienced and sensible when he talks about aikido trains his students in a way that you hold up as unworthwhile training.

Hum...What does that mean?
It means that he can talk the talk but not walk the walk. A very common problem actually.

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Old 06-03-2011, 11:13 AM   #170
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
It means that he can talk the talk but not walk the walk. A very common problem actually.
More than common: in aikido, endemic.
It seems at times a type of walk, that one wonders whether it's worth walking at all in the first place, if the way it's so frequently walked is the way that either you accept to walk, or it means you can't walk.

I am all with Dan.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 06-03-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:29 AM   #171
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training."
Very interesting.
Could you be so kind to elaborate more, when you have a chance?

Also, how does that apply as far as resistance is involved? Apparently, solo training poses a permanent danger, namely that of training in a self delusional manner that you may believe effective and yet it is not (this happens regularly when we practice iriminages on dojos with ukes, and then we move those iriminages on to more "realistic" avenues - go figure what may happen in solo training).

With the limted scope of my understanding, I know katas are a founding factor of all martial arts - in fact, I have always been puzzled in seeing how katas seem so scantly developed in Aikido apparently, at least if comparatively evaluated against, say, karate.

However that statement in your signature is so interesting, and I loved so much your posts here and elsewhere in these days, that whatever thoughs you may have on that topic, would be gold to me.
Of course if you feel like, otherwise no prob.

Thank you.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 06-03-2011 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:45 PM   #172
DH
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Solo training is a type of conditioning, a softening and toughening of the body that connects it in ways designed for martial arts.

Kata and drills is patterning of movement to burn in responses.

Free style is the use of both in a pressured environment.

Fighting is fighting, if you have not or or not do it, its best not pretend you know what you're talking about.

That was not a personal you...just a general comment.
Few people really understand what solo training for internal power is for and how it relates to aiki. Most martial artists Really do not belong in an informed discussion of : internal power, aiki, or fighting. On the other hand good or bad techinque is an open ended discussion that is all but meaningless by definition.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-03-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 01:53 AM   #173
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
He is charging, I try to escape, pam - I see the mat. I am getting up, pam! I see the mat again - I try to roll away and get up as I am almost standing - pam! i see the mat again. I am confused, I understand nothing. How can I manage in this thunderstorm? I am supposed to do a nikkyo but I have no idea - how can I do a nikkyo in this situation?
I try - i get a smack on my face, a finger into my eye and pam - i see the mat again.
I make desperate attempts, at first using blunt force, other times grappling into the void - pam - i see the mat again.
I grab his wrist he pulls it back i lose my grip, pam, i get two smacks on my face, pam i see the mat again.
I grab again a wrist, i know i must be fast, but i have placed my hands in the wrong way - oh no darling, what do you want me to do rub your tummy? You did it wrong, so - PAM - you see the mat!
I try again this time a hand is placed corrctly but this wrist doesn't turn, why i cannot understand maybe because - pam i see the mat again!

then you go home. You rethink over and over the whole thing. It's engraved deeply into your flesh and mind now.
You realize your possibile errors. Tomorrow is another day, you will see the mat again, but this time you will try a new trick. Pam and you see the mat again!

Repeat algorithm. Over and over again.

One day you place a wonderful nikkyo - because you have realized that the way to a good nikkyo is paved of burning obstacles, and that if you don't manage thos efirst, you will NEVER place a nikkyo on a REAL attacker.

Pam - he sees the mat.

Aikido learned with the contribution of a boxing legacy.
You don't learn as you succeed during the day in the dojo. You learn by failing utterly and ingominously against the complete holistic challenge, when at night you think it over. You learn while the owls croak, as you lay in your bed.
Perhaps I should leave this thread in its dormant state, but I found this video and it made me think of this thread again.

Perhaps this training has a somewhat higher degree of realism from a boxing point of view?
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:51 AM   #174
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 169
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Talking Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Practise hard very often, every session, while you are young, intensity is important to understand where your mistakes, problems are....
I instruct my uke's to always resist me when teaching waza, to attack hard and hit or grab me with all their strength, if they do not, it always ends up in press ups till they are sick of them!! That makes them hit me or grab me hard, which refines my waza and also theirs. Lackadaisical training is for those who want to cop out of the training they do not desire.....
thank you

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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