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Old 05-07-2011, 07:14 PM   #26
Keith Larman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

This all reminds me of all the "types of people" quotes.

"There are two types of people, those who think there are two types of people and those who don't."

or one of my favorites..

"There are 10 types of people. Those who know binary and those who don't."

Of course there is also "There are three types of people, those who know math and those who don't."

Then... "There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who have a way with words and those who have not way."

Okay, I jest, but the point is that there are all sorts of lineages out there with various deshi who came up with their own ideas about how things are. Each one is profound within its own context. And even if your own lineage's philosophy seems obviously right, correct, and unassailable to you it might not fit some other lineage. Bottom line is that it seems to me many would benefit greatly from dropping the pseudo-intellectual/philosophical bantering and just train some more. And also I'd suggest that some may need to get out more and see what other folk are doing.

Just a note from the cheap seats. Back to the deep thoughts.

Sure glad the secrets of Aikido are so simple.

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Old 05-07-2011, 07:27 PM   #27
graham christian
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Sounds like one of those clint eastwood movies. 'There are two kinds of people in this world my friend, those with horses and.......

Glad you came in I was getting dizzy.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:55 PM   #28
lbb
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

And let's not forget the Colonel's eleven herbs and spices...
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:57 AM   #29
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

When are people going to understand that Aikido is NOT physical training?

To find the path to Aikido, surely its a good idea to understand more than just how to apply a technique, which as i have said is not Aikido?

There are other aspects that one should appreciate rather than just mat time.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:34 AM   #30
Mark Freeman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
When are people going to understand that Aikido is NOT physical training?

To find the path to Aikido, surely its a good idea to understand more than just how to apply a technique, which as i have said is not Aikido?

There are other aspects that one should appreciate rather than just mat time.
Voltaire -
- To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it


Is anyone here arguing for the fact that aikido is just 'physical training'?

It seems to me that most aikidoka understand that aikido practice (for that is what it is a practice / way) is a mind/body/spirit endeavour.

How well they do is a combination of their own teacher's understanding and their own commitment to find and discard everything that stands in their own way of realising the 'enlightenment' you speak of.

For me, I search for the non resistance / non contention that I believe is central to achieving the sort of aikido that my own teacher displays. This is not confined to the physical, it is mental and spiritual. It is a path, a practice, it is aikido. Aikido is not an end goal that only (in your opinion) very few men have achieved, and the rest of us are doing something other than.

You seem so certain in your proclamations Lee, you must know so much more / (or less), than the rest of us.

We should be looking for better ways to practice, better ways to teach, better ways to understand how to make the journey useful, rather than saying dead men from the past had it, you don't

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:40 AM   #31
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

My knowledge and understanding comes through people such as Tamura, Arikawa and Pierre Chassang so im confident that what i have been told is corrrect.

If you believe practice is Aikido then i suggest you do a little further investigation rather that just believing that mat time is Aikido.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:09 AM   #32
Mark Freeman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark,

My knowledge and understanding comes through people such as Tamura, Arikawa and Pierre Chassang so im confident that what i have been told is corrrect.

If you believe practice is Aikido then i suggest you do a little further investigation rather that just believing that mat time is Aikido.
Lee,

please don't misquote me, I did not say nor do I believe that mat time is aikido. I do however, believe it is a practice of the principles both on and off of the mat.

Have Tamura, Arikawa and Pierre Chassang all achieved enlightenment and therefore able to say they have aikido? How do you know that what you have been told is correct? How do you know that I need to investigate more? How do you know that an enlightend person is enlightened? If someone tells you they have achieved enlightenment, what makes it 'true' that if you do what they did, you will get the same result?

We can all cite our lineage here, it doesn't really mean much on a personal level, my own link to O Sensei is through Ken Williams' training with Abbe, Noro, Nakozono and Tohei and others. But what does that prove? It just means that I have some good grounding to inform my own journey.

Why do you feel you have a handle on the real deal and so many others, still need to wise up?

Maybe you should release your grip on certainty, you seem to be pretty focussed on having the right knowledge. Maybe you should ask more questions rather than inform others as to their shortcomings.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:16 AM   #33
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

You said "It is a path, a practice, it is aikido", that is mat time, and you believe that is Aikido, so no i did not misquote.

I have asked the right questions, its why i know what i know, and it is not a question of lineage.

If you truly believe that what you are doing is Aikido, then long may you continue to be deceived.

As i have said, Aikido IS NOT techniques.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:19 AM   #34
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

Do you know that Kotai, Jutai, Ekitai and Kitai is or what the 9 elements are?

The amount of Aikidoka in the UK who dont demonstrates a breakdown in the transmission of training from Japan.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:32 AM   #35
niall
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

A competition about lineages and who knows what isn't helpful for anyone. Most of us are going in the same direction. Lee I'm sure a lot of people don't know what those concepts are so it would be nice if you could explain them briefly. Thanks.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 05-08-2011, 06:49 AM   #36
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Nial,

I am not trying to compare lineages, but trying to demonstrate a simple point. I have also raised the question "Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido".

The fact that the majority of Aikidoka do not know the 4 levels of training or the 9 elements shows there has been a breakdown in the training methods since O'Senseis time.

I know people graded 5th and 6th Dan by the Hombu who do not recognise these terms.

Aikido is about Unification with the Universal, but we within the Aikido World cant even unify a training method or terminology.

This happened in O'Senseis time, its why he stopped teaching at the Hombu becuase someone changed his techniques.

That is why it is only really through Iwama that O'Senseis Aikido is trying to be preserved. Kotai training, hard solid grabs, is not followed at most dojos in the world because it is really really hard. Blending is supposed to be achieved with strong phsical contact, not blending while moving, this is cheating as momentum takes over from technique.

If Aikidoka do not have an open mind, then there will never be unification in the Aikido world. Look at all the reactions to the issues i have raised because it outside their realm of understanding. Wheres the harmony there?.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:58 AM   #37
niall
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Lee I am always suspicious when anyone says there is only one way. Including me. An inclusive view of aikido respects all approaches.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


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Old 05-08-2011, 06:59 AM   #38
niall
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Graham this is from the Tengugeijutsuron in Zen and the Ways by Trevor Leggett. Your interesting post reminded me of it.

Quote:
Ri has no form, and its functioning is manifested through some instrument, without which it is not to be seen. The inspiration of the absolute appears through changes of yin and yang; the divine ri of the human heart appears through the four virtues. Though swordsmanship is techniques of combat, ultimately there is no perfection of technique without the inspiration of the heart-nature. But it is difficult for young warriors to attain it.

So traditionally the instruction has been in the nature of formal practice (kata), going through all the techniques of thrust and cut, attack and counter, lightly and without forcing them. In this way sinews and bones become well-knit, and the use of hands and feet is mastered, and how to use them in responding to changes.

While technique is immature the heart is tense, and one cannot move as one should. So the practice of the techniques is by 'feeling' (ki). The heart rides on ki to employ one of the techniques; ki, then, being the energy, is not to be restricted, but vigorous and untrammelled. When ri-inspiration is contained in the technique, the latter conforms to the nature of the instrument used. As technique matures, the ki becomes harmonious in it, and the inner ri-inspiration spontaneously manifests. When without any doubts one penetrates into the heart, technique and inspiration are one, ki controls itself, the spirit is composed, and the potentialities unlimited.

This was the ancient method of training in the arts, and it is the essence of that training. If technique is not mature, ki is not harmonious, it does not conform to the particular formal technique. Then heart and technique remain two separate things and there is no freedom of action.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:00 AM   #39
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Nial,

It was Arikawa who said there is only one Aikido, not me. I just quoted him.

There are many types of training but only one Aikido.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:04 AM   #40
Mark Freeman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark,

You said "It is a path, a practice, it is aikido", that is mat time, and you believe that is Aikido, so no i did not misquote.
you don't seem to read beyond what you want to see, to justify your own position do you?

Quote:
I have asked the right questions, its why i know what i know, and it is not a question of lineage.
then why quote your own?

Quote:
If you truly believe that what you are doing is Aikido, then long may you continue to be deceived.
Thank you for being so patronising Lee, I will re-evaluate my own experience and 20 years of practice in a brand new light now that you have shown me the error of my ways.

Quote:
As i have said, Aikido IS NOT techniques.
Good for you, I happen to agree with that.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:07 AM   #41
niall
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
That is why it is only really through Iwama that O'Senseis Aikido is trying to be preserved.
Lee I don't agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion. You also mentioned having an open mind.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:07 AM   #42
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

Are you aware of the 4 levels of training and the 9 elements?
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:09 AM   #43
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Niall,

It is not my opinion, it is historical fact that O'Sensei stopped teaching at Hombu because his techniques had been changed. This is well documented.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:16 AM   #44
niall
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
That is why it is only really through Iwama that O'Senseis Aikido is trying to be preserved.
That is an opinion. Not a fact. Most of the hundreds of thousands of aikidoka from different styles wouldn't agree with it. They would all have their own opinions. Lee good luck in your training.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:29 AM   #45
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Niall,

Only those who are training strong physical Kotai can claim to be completing training as O'Sensei intended.

Most places dont do that.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:48 AM   #46
Mark Freeman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark,

Are you aware of the 4 levels of training and the 9 elements?
yes and no, what difference will it make to the quality of my practice?

Quote:
That is why it is only really through Iwama that O'Senseis Aikido is trying to be preserved. Kotai training, hard solid grabs, is not followed at most dojos in the world because it is really really hard. Blending is supposed to be achieved with strong phsical contact, not blending while moving, this is cheating as momentum takes over from technique.
Why quote this as aikido? you have said aikido is not technique, then you give an opinion about the 'right' way to do technique, odd.

Personally I find hard solid grabs are overrated, literally too easy to break someones balance when they do. It is much harder to shift someone who holds with relaxation, co-ordination and serious intent. But then what do I know?

To consider dynamic movement as 'cheating' is to reveal a lack of understanding of what constitutes an encounter.

Quote:
If Aikidoka do not have an open mind, then there will never be unification in the Aikido world. Look at all the reactions to the issues i have raised because it outside their realm of understanding. Wheres the harmony there?.
Who is looking to create unification in the Aikido world? Aikido is practiced in many ways and has been passed down through many teachers, O Sensei was good but not a god, he got what he got from others, he adapted and added. This will continue, as it should.

I'm done with this, good luck with your quest to let everyone know how little they know. And open up your own mind to the possibility that you may not have all the truth.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:54 AM   #47
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

Your comments prove how little you know with 20 years experience by dismissing the ways of the founder.

You will never find O'Senseis Aikido.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:07 AM   #48
Mark Freeman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark,

Your comments prove how little you know with 20 years experience by dismissing the ways of the founder.

You will never find O'Senseis Aikido.
Once again thank you for your patronising position, it must be quite a heady experience being so high on your own sense of rightness.

You are starting to sound like a fundamentalist, get a grip Lee,

I am happy to be someone who searches and asks questions of my teachers and myself, I am happy to know that I don't know it all, if that is deluded, then so be it, I'll remain deluded but still searching,

regards

Mark
I really am done.. good luck with your quest

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:10 AM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
That is an opinion. Not a fact. Most of the hundreds of thousands of aikidoka from different styles wouldn't agree with it.
Lots of iwamaers included, especially the non brainwashed ones.

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Old 05-08-2011, 08:13 AM   #50
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark,

It is you who are patronising, in fact down right insulting.

It is YOU who have dismissed the teachings of the founder, not i. It is i who have tried to pursue the path of the founder and present a discussion here, which you at every turn have just dismissed.

You are not even attempting to do O'Senseis Aikido. These are your words, so how can i be patronising?
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