Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: The lack of logic is in a generalized use of: Person X performs better than Person Y Person X is an IS stilyst while Person Y is an athlete. Therefore: IS is superior to athleticism. Don't you see the flaws in this logic?

Hi Demetrio,

Interesting point (among others).

The logical flaw I was thinking about is built into the thread's juxtaposition of a hypothetical athlete's "ability" to perform concrete acts performed by Real Person(TM) x, y, or z.

What does the conclusion that "an athlete could do that" mean? Pretty hard to say if it means anything in its current form. (Although I suspect what Chris would like is for someone to post a video so he can, as he has in the past, attempt to duplicate what he sees on his own video.)

The argument-form you lay out has come up more than once in threads like this (a thread about "ju" versus "aiki" comes to mind).

However, I think the default response of the skeptics in this threat has tended to be that this "IS/IP" stuff is either unremarkable (an "athlete" could do that plus a whole lot more) or unreal (chickens speaking english).

I don't perceive anyone being less that honest. Still, sometimes it's read like a transcript of a game of "bring me a stone." ("That's not a stone, that's just a [rock, pebble, mote in my eye.]" "Is so -- you're either blind or pretending." "Look, even if I were, that's not objective proof that this is a stone." )

I suspect there is no way to resolve this kind of dispute from a distance, even assuming the best of intentions.

Chris Hein wrote: But the thing is, I can see people riding bikes. I can't see any internal people doing anything that I don't understand.

Chris,
Let's go back to the wall push exercise and your initial response:

Chris Hein wrote: I can't have someone push me in the wall with all their force, and simply walk away from the wall. Nor have I ever seen anyone else do that.

Quite a few of us have experienced that. Not heard about it, but experienced it - directly. But, for you, to put that into something your mind could try to fathom, you came up with this:

Chris Hein wrote: I can however think of several situations where this could be made possible. I don't know what you are seeing, if you show it to me, I can work with it, but words are not doing it.

That was something you don't understand. And I would bet that even if you saw it on video, you'd still think there was some "trick" to it that "normal" people could do.

Chris Hein wrote: This is fine, but don't compare taking 10 minutes out of your day to make a video to support your statements, to me paying several hundred dollars, and many hours of travel, to do something that I don't believe is worth my time.

Then, seriously, Chris, why are you even posting about it? More importantly, if it's not something that's worth your time, why would we ever think it worth ours to answer your questions? Let alone video anything?

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: I think you might have recognized something there. There is a specific quality/feeling/sensation that we are all looking for. That is to say, that to most people looking from the outside, wether someone uses internals or externals to power something it looks the same, but to both people it feels substantially different. This is why I hesitate to call one way better than the other if the same results are achieved. Now if you have a little bit of experience with internals, and you watch you might be able to tell how each movement was powered between the athletic person and IS powered person. Likewise, the effects on the partner might look different.

It's this personal factor that I can't get around. Let's say two guys are in a fight, one is an athlete and one is an internal guy. They have the same respective skill in their systems, same weight heights etc. If they always fight to a draw then both are equal systems. In my opinion athletics is the better route to chose though. Simply because it's more readily available, cheaper, and more people doing it. So if that were the case, I would pick athletics over IP. However I could understand why studying something more exotic would be interesting to some people.

I don't believe this to be the case however. I believe that internal is a less advanced system of understanding the body then modern sport training. So I don't understand why anyone would chose this way of learning to use the body over modern athletic practices.

I understand your point regarding strength and how "effortlessness" can be subjective. If you decide to chase after this feeling/mode of movement, the feeling of it being effortless is really just that. For example, if I raise my arms with no one pushing on them, then I raise my arms with someone holding on to them utilizing IS for both raises, it really doesn't feel any different to me. My arms kind of just float upwards as though something else was raising them other than my shoulders. To the person who is holding my arms, they don't feel me lifting them up at all. What feels strange to them is that they do not feel any resistance, they can't really tell where I am sourcing my power from.

Okay, bare with me here, this might sound like a jab, but it's not meant to be. I understand the idea of what you are describing, but to me (understand I'm not trying to be rude) it sounds like mental conditioning. If the person who is trying to resist your movement does not feel like they are resisting, they they most likely are not resisting. I understand the "it has to be felt" as it applies here. But if their are only 3 people in the world who can do this, it's pretty hard to get around. I also feel like if I were to meet up with Mike, and say, we'll I didn't feel what you guys are talking about, you would say well Mike isn't as good as Dan, and if I met Dan and said the same, it would be well you should meet Ark, and if the same results came out, it would be we'll you just don't get it because (enter answer here). I feel like this kind of thing is so personal that it can't be argued with.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but can you see where I'm coming from?

The wacky thing is that when I do conditoining exercises now, my shoulders don't really get tired like I used too, instead other parts of my body start to get tired and from my experienced this shifts lower and lower the more skilled/conditioned you get.

I have experienced this exact same thing in my regular Aikido training. When I used to do suburi, my arms would hurt, then that disappeared, then my back was tight, then my lower back, then when that went away it was my calves then my feet hurt. This happened over a long period of time. Now I have to do a great number of suburi before I get any aches at all. I believe this is do to me letting go of unnecessary tension that I was holding in these point. I don't think this is beyond the scope of athletic training.

Now to get back to your original question in your first post, the way in which this may be "better" is that the athletic person may not have experienced this sort of thing before so you have that element of surprise/unreadability coupled with being able to generate power from unusual positions in which others might be seriously compromised.

I see where you are going with this. It's just that I don't believe a modern football running back can't do all of these things at a high level already. I believe athletes to be physically better at this stuff. I would like to find ways that we can get beyond belief.

Mark Murray wrote: Chris, Then, seriously, Chris, why are you even posting about it? More importantly, if it's not something that's worth your time, why would we ever think it worth ours to answer your questions? Let alone video anything?

There is this slow creeping idea, that Aiki, as it relates to Aikido is what you guys call IP, IS or what have you. I disagree with this strongly.

I don't believe that IP is anything special, I've not seen or heard anything that would convince me to spend much of my time or energy on it. I do spend a lot of time on Aikido though, and I don't appreciate what I feel is the the hijacking of the word "Aiki". To have many here tell it, only Dan can do "Aiki" and everyone else is missing something. I do not buy it.

Would I give Dan $300, get time off work, get a hotel, and travel many hours to do something I don't think is anything special, no. Will I take 10 minutes out of my day to make a video, yes.

Chris Hein wrote: Again, effortless seems a bit subjective. What is effortless for one might not be effortless for another even though they are using the same means. For example, If I can easily bench 400lbs, and you can only bench 200lbs, benching 175 might be effortless for me, and I could do many many reps, for you it would be very near max, and take a lot of effort. I understand what you are saying, but I feel that "effortless" is a very personal thing.

I can move, with little or no perceived effort, individuals who weigh significantly more than I do, and significantly more than my squat or deadlift max. And I'm not even good at this stuff.

Katherine

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: I can move, with little or no perceived effort, individuals who weigh significantly more than I do, and significantly more than my squat or deadlift max. And I'm not even good at this stuff. Katherine

So can I. So can any football running back.

Charles David Henderson wrote: The argument-form you lay out has come up more than once in threads like this (a thread about "ju" versus "aiki" comes to mind).

Why would there be any arguing over "ju" versus "aiki"? Kano pretty much defined both as being the same.

Ueshiba learns Daito ryu aiki, which is the method of in-yo (yin/yang).

Kano's concept of Ju no Ri, was based upon the Taoist precept, "reversing is the movement of the Tao," also described by the statement "the most yielding things in the world overcome the most unyielding." Kano combined Ju no Ri with the interplay of forces as defined by the precept of in-yo (yin and yang, hardness and softness, negative and positive, receptiveness and resistance)
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2138

1930 Kano verifies that Ueshiba's aiki via in/yo was Kano's view of an ideal budo.

The core of what Kano viewed as the ideal of his art was physically manifested by Ueshiba's demonstration of Daito ryu aiki. Pretty clear to me.

Chris Hein wrote: There is this slow creeping idea, that Aiki, as it relates to Aikido is what you guys call IP, IS or what have you. I disagree with this strongly. I don't believe that IP is anything special, I've not seen or heard anything that would convince me to spend much of my time or energy on it. I do spend a lot of time on Aikido though, and I don't appreciate what I feel is the the hijacking of the word "Aiki". To have many here tell it, only Dan can do "Aiki" and everyone else is missing something. I do not buy it. Would I give Dan $300, get time off work, get a hotel, and travel many hours to do something I don't think is anything special, no. Will I take 10 minutes out of my day to make a video, yes.

Okay, then. Can you do everything that Ikeda Sensei or Saotome Sensei can? How about Tohei Sensei or O'Sensei himself?

If so, let's see the video.

If not, is it "worth your time" to learn?

Katherine

Chris Hein wrote: So can I. So can any football running back.

From a static grab?

As for running backs, it's not unusual for an NFL running back to have a 400+ pound squat. Not many humans weigh more than that, so he doesn't have the opportunity to test whether he could move them.

Katherine

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: Well, if you look at the Mifune "Essence of Judo" video that sort of situation actually arises. Mifune, while in the air and without a connection to the ground via his own body, connects through his opponent's body to the ground and throws the opponent. That video really is amazing to watch. I don't have time right now to watch the whole thing (its 60 minutes long) to find that particular demonstration.

Yeah, I remember that video. I only watched a little into it to see an example of what you're referring to. But what's happening in that video, is not what Phi was offering in his example. Mifune is already doing a lot to control the situation, while managing himself. Even if he is suddenly airborne, it's almost as if it's by his own design. In any case, once you've left the ground, you're eliminating a lot of options that are at your disposal, especially if you're trying to make a side-by-side comparison between athlete and "internal". For instance, a good internal stylist might not be worth a damn as a runner, while an athlete might be hard to bring down no matter what you throw at them (whether you like your football American or European ).

Best,
Adam

Here is some video of me doing some of the things you may be talking about:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=742

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=739

Again without specifics it's hard to know what you are talking about.

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: From a static grab? As for running backs, it's not unusual for an NFL running back to have a 400+ pound squat. Not many humans weigh more than that, so he doesn't have the opportunity to test whether he could move them. Katherine

NFL running backs can throw huge athletic men to the ground without touching them. They do it all the time, it happens several times in each game.

Chris Hein wrote: Here is some video of me doing some of the things you may be talking about: http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=742 http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=739 Again without specifics it's hard to know what you are talking about.

I can certainly see what you mean by stage magic and tricks. Thank goodness I don't involve myself with that stuff.

Tell me, when you lift a barbell...is it a trick?
Is conditioning the body.....a trick?
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Tell me, when you lift a barbell...is it a trick? Is conditioning the body.....a trick? Dan

Depends on what I'm telling people when I'm doing it.

Chris Hein wrote: Depends on what I'm telling people when I'm doing it.

Are you saying that you would be interested in misleading them?
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Are you saying that you would be interested in misleading them? Dan

Nope, but others may be, if they were interested in tricking people for some reason. It's easy to trick people if you want to.

Chris Hein wrote: NFL running backs can throw huge athletic men to the ground without touching them. They do it all the time, it happens several times in each game.

Again, can they do it from a static grab?

No touch throws are actually pretty easy if the attacker is sufficiently committed. More a matter of timing than anything else. That's not what people are talking about here.

Katherine

Chris Hein wrote: It's this personal factor that I can't get around. Let's say two guys are in a fight, one is an athlete and one is an internal guy. They have the same respective skill in their systems, same weight heights etc. If they always fight to a draw then both are equal systems. In my opinion athletics is the better route to chose though. Simply because it's more readily available, cheaper, and more people doing it. So if that were the case, I would pick athletics over IP. However I could understand why studying something more exotic would be interesting to some people.

I would agree. Its a personal decision that is best left up to each person, though in my own opinion, it is required if you want to want to make Aikido work in the manner shown by Ueshiba. If one just wants to compete/have fun the athletic route is a heck of a lot easier and more accessible. I don't think anyone who is on the seminar circuit will tell you much different.

In my own case, I felt Akuzawa do stuff to me that I had never felt before. Came back a year later and his students felt/could do some of the stuff he could do. A couple years I felt Mike and realized that there were other people out there who could do the same. For me at least, once I felt this sort of strength I saw immediate utility, it just became a question of how much do I really want to figure it out, which has waxed and waned over the years.

I don't believe this to be the case however. I believe that internal is a less advanced system of understanding the body then modern sport training. So I don't understand why anyone would chose this way of learning to use the body over modern athletic practices.

Well, it depends as reworking your body in the internal way requires a signifigant amount of time and mental energy. Ive been doing it for 6 years and figured out 6 months ago that other than learning how to use structure, I had been pretty much doing everything wrong. If you can get hands on with a guy who you can't throw, can't read, and who literally toses you with one finger it tends to grab one's attention.

Okay, bare with me here, this might sound like a jab, but it's not meant to be. I understand the idea of what you are describing, but to me (understand I'm not trying to be rude) it sounds like mental conditioning. If the person who is trying to resist your movement does not feel like they are resisting, they they most likely are not resisting. I understand the "it has to be felt" as it applies here. But if their are only 3 people in the world who can do this, it's pretty hard to get around. I also feel like if I were to meet up with Mike, and say, we'll I didn't feel what you guys are talking about, you would say well Mike isn't as good as Dan, and if I met Dan and said the same, it would be well you should meet Ark, and if the same results came out, it would be we'll you just don't get it because (enter answer here). I feel like this kind of thing is so personal that it can't be argued with.

There are a heck of a lot more than 3 people out there who can do this sort of thing. It's just that there are several names out there who reguarly offer public seminars that show up on aikiweb. Now, I have never felt Dan, but I have felt Ark, Mike, and a bunch of other people out there who can do these skills. There are differences to be sure, due to skill, mass, approach etc, however none of them felt like they were overtly utilizing muscle. We just hear from Mike and Dan the most due to their native english ability. Some of the others who have offered seminars include the Chen Tai Chi guys from chen village (CXW, Chen Bing etc), Sam Chin (and some of his students), Forrest Chang, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Kenji Ushiro, then you have people related to the Roppokai, Don Angier etc. Now I can't personally vet all of the above people, but I have met a couple of them or seen video of some of them, but their names do appear from time to time offering seminars on aikiweb.

I think the idea of mental suggestion is quite interesting. I believe a while back, you posted some videos of you and a partner working on structure. I'm sure you are quite familiar that when you set up your body in such a way that you have really good structure that a partner can more or less push themsleves away the harder they try and push into you so they won't feel an active push. To be sure, there is an element of this with someone who is using good internal strength, and Adam's previous comments are connect with respect to why the guy flies in the air with Akuzawa. Now even if you don't "resisit" or push into the guy, you won't feel that person exerting any effort either.

I gave the example earlier with agete/kokyu dosa etc where Akuzawa can raise you up and stop you at any point and you won't feel him bearing the weight with his arms/you won't feel resistance.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but can you see where I'm coming from?

Absolutely, and hence the difficultly talking about this stuff. All of the teachers/seminar givers above should be able to clearly demonstrate the difference between muscle and IS powered movement. It is really dramatic. I don't think you are being difficult at all. People who feel this sort of thing can come accross as trying to spread the gospel.

I have experienced this exact same thing in my regular Aikido training. When I used to do suburi, my arms would hurt, then that disappeared, then my back was tight, then my lower back, then when that went away it was my calves then my feet hurt. This happened over a long period of time. Now I have to do a great number of suburi before I get any aches at all. I believe this is do to me letting go of unnecessary tension that I was holding in these point. I don't think this is beyond the scope of athletic training.

This is a bit different, its more like how you are supporting your upper body and how you can use the middle/lower body to move the arms. Sounds a bit crazy, but you can look into discussions about the later topic by looking into Mike Sigman's suit model. As for the first thing, you are correct about tension/relaxation, but this is a bit different, its more like you start supporting the weight of the limbs somewhere other than in the limb itself.

I see where you are going with this. It's just that I don't believe a modern football running back can't do all of these things at a high level already. I believe athletes to be physically better at this stuff. I would like to find ways that we can get beyond belief.

It's actually funny you mention this, the Chargers brought in an Isshinryu karate guy named AJ Advincula as a body management coach back in the 80's/90's (for 6 years) who wound up teaching the players Sanchin and some internal concepts (Advincula has in my opinion better understanding of IS concepts than you average karateka, but IS guru's would probably say its limited). From his own reporting, the guys who took his teachings to heart had longer career's on average.

Chris Hein wrote: Nope, but others may be, if they were interested in tricking people for some reason. It's easy to trick people if you want to.

So, would you agree that conditioning, and the results of conditioning is not a trick, but a physical event?
Dan

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: Again, can they do it from a static grab? No touch throws are actually pretty easy if the attacker is sufficiently committed. More a matter of timing than anything else. That's not what people are talking about here. Katherine

Hello Katherine
Chris has already stated that he thinks aiki is timing and visual tricks in many other threads...hence linebackers doing aiki.
He also stated he thinks internal power is what is done by golfers and baseball players.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: He also stated he thinks internal power is what is done by golfers and baseball players. Cheers Dan

Dan,

It could be of course used in golf, but that doesn't mean golfers are already using IS. I saw Ark pick up a golf club for the first time in 10 years and hit 350 yards without using a driver.

Might not be a bad gig to run some golf clinics!

You may have missed my post upthread, so you may have missed that I have a foot in both worlds.

I have lots of respect for athletes. I know people who are nationally ranked in their sports, and I can't do what they can do.

But IP is different, in a way that is immediately obvious once you put the two side by side.

If you refuse to do that... *shrug* your loss.

Katherine

Dan Harden wrote: So, would you agree that conditioning, and the results of conditioning is not a trick, but a physical event? Dan

Yes. What is the physical difference between the type of physical conditioning you are offering, and what someone could get from the average sports coach?

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: It's actually funny you mention this, the Chargers brought in an Isshinryu karate guy named AJ Advincula as a body management coach back in the 80's/90's (for 6 years) who wound up teaching the players Sanchin and some internal concepts (Advincula has in my opinion better understanding of IS concepts than you average karateka, but IS guru's would probably say its limited). From his own reporting, the guys who took his teachings to heart had longer career's on average.

This is interesting, but maybe different for me then for you. First, the NFL is a multi million dollar industry. They fund anything that works. If they had an IP guy around who gave them a noticeable advantage, other teams would have quickly done like wise. A situation like this shows that the NFL was indeed exposed to IP but it didn't catch on. Why didn't it catch on?

If you have a few players who really liked the guy personally and he made them feel like they were performing better there would be no reason to get rid of him. I can understand keeping the guy around for 6 years. However the fact that more coaches didn't get an IP guy tells me that he didn't seem to help much.

The Chargers didn't have that many great years between the 80's 90's Save 80,81, 92 and 94, four great years out of 20 tells me that this guy wasn't a huge success.

Chris Hein wrote: Yes. What is the physical difference between the type of physical conditioning you are offering, and what someone could get from the average sports coach?

Hi Chris,

I am not for a moment presuming to answer for Dan, I'm sure he can do that. For me, athletic physical conditioning, builds muscles in a particular way, using weights and repetitive exercise to strengthen and to increase stamina etc. Now in the case of the shoulder muscles, I have found that they are the main blockers to being able to put the hara in the hands. If I can completely relax the shoulders I can connect my hands to my centre and the floor. This is just one small way to differentiate between 'normal' athletic conditioning and 'internal' conditioning. In this case the more one develop shoulder muscles, the harder it is to not use them.

Also, quite a while ago, I had a professional rower on a corporate training course I was leading. As you would expect he had a very well developed upper body. He was asking me about aikido in one of the breaks, asking me to show him something. I decided to satisfiy his curosity in the gentlest way possible. I took his right wrist and very very lightly lead his hand up to my left shoulder turning his hand over at the same time. I must stress that I was being super cautious, treating him as I would a beginner on their first night. Anyway, I was hardly halfway through the move when he was starting to grimmace, I let go immediately, and was concerned when he went away clutching his arm, which he spent the rest of the day nursing. I felt mortified that I had caused him that level of discomfort. But, what I did learn from it was, his strength was all built in one way for one sort of release of power. He had virtually no rotational flexibility in his arm (just not neccessary for rowing). Also if I had been using normal physical strength, he would have had something familiar to cope with, but my caution and being gentle actually made it worse.

Nothing wrong with athleticism, nothing wrong with internal conditioning, they are both different though.

just my couple of pennies worth to add to this little debate.

regards,

Mark