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Old 01-27-2011, 02:29 PM   #126
graham christian
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I'm sure it's not just you, Mark (you had to go there already? Don't make me come kick your soapbox). And while I agree with the idea that the teacher *should* do all the things you say. And a healthy learning environment is great.

But for my money, I'm hungry. I'm not willing to be told I'll get it in 20 years. I want to try something out, kick the tires, put it in a pressure grinder, question it, look at it academically, debate it, look at it again. I take responsibility for myself and my learning - if I am not getting it somewhere, I move along.
Hi Budd. I'm sure you do want to do all those things and I'm sure most students do too so I don't quite understand how you equate that with 'being told you'll get it in 20 years' as that's just a saying, I've never heard anyone say it or or believe it literally. In fact it's the type of thing people who have nothing to do with martial arts may say at a party to sound impressive.
I also think you've missed the point of what Mark was saying. He was trying to point out that if you promote 'stealing' and fast track learning, if you use that kind of terminology then all it does is give the impression of a con going on. It makes it sound like some smooth slick salesman.
I would advise you not to dress things up with things like that and any other salestalk as it doesn't show you in a good light.
Having said that, if you are discussing a respected persons way, actions, demonstrations, then why not do it in a positive manner?
For example: In such and such video I liked how he moved the uke in a smooth circle from his center and then........(you get the picture?) That would be from someone who says they know what's happening. Otherwise it would be more like: 'I get how he moves uke around from center but didn't understand how he then caused her to come back in towards him'
This would be far more of a progressive discussion than pointing out it's JUST this or it's just that and he didn't do this or that or mentioning his students or his teacher or anything else for that matter.
Food for thought I hope. I'm sure you know the principles you know but I'm not sure what your purpose is? Are you trying to learn something? Are you trying to share something? Are you trying to sell something? I'm curious.
Regards.G.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 03:59 PM   #127
Budd
 
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Hey Marc,

Promise I wasn't even thinking about Ushiro when I wrote that - I was referring to my own asking about what we see Ikeda doing in the vids (yanno, the topic of this thread!) and subsequent thread drift (see Graham's post, where he feels the need to talk about me rather than the topic).

I am really wishing I could make it to your neck for Ushiro's visit. Heck, you have me curious what you're working on with the wrestlers - I have some of my own ideas for that game as well. But that said - I think if people can offer opinions here - regardless of whether or not we like the content, we can stick to commenting about the topic and keep it on track, each and every one of us.

Because I think it's very important for people to get - admit - comment on as they can - what is happening with those basic demos of Ki. It's entry level stuff - and that is NOT a dig, I think it's intentional because the skill component to pull it off can be shown fairly easily - as well as the conditioning steps. From there, six months of work or so and you should be on your way - most likely not nearly as polished, because performing the exact drills is also a practiced skill. But you'll be able to more easily spot more and more the "how it works" pieces, methinks. And you need to have done that basic work and be able to exhibit that basic conditioning before you can do the more advanced stuffs (similar to Tohei's Ki tests in that regard).

And I'm still not talking about Ushiro or what other people say about him!!

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Budd:

I know that you are talking about some people's perceptions of Ushiro Sensei. I have always encouraged everybody I know to get some hands-on with him. I would love it if some people could explain some of the things that he can do. I simply object to behind-the-back, negative comments spoken from a place of no experience. If people want to come out and say that from what they think that they see......, fine, no problems, but then that person should follow it up with some hands-on to confirm one's opinion. That to me, is the basis of integrity. If you put it out there, do so for all to see and then back it up with experience. You and I are ex-wrestlers. We both know that at the end of the day, the person's hand that is raised is from what really happened and not from conjecture.

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 01-27-2011, 04:16 PM   #128
Marc Abrams
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Hey Marc,

Promise I wasn't even thinking about Ushiro when I wrote that - I was referring to my own asking about what we see Ikeda doing in the vids (yanno, the topic of this thread!) and subsequent thread drift (see Graham's post, where he feels the need to talk about me rather than the topic).

I am really wishing I could make it to your neck for Ushiro's visit. Heck, you have me curious what you're working on with the wrestlers - I have some of my own ideas for that game as well. But that said - I think if people can offer opinions here - regardless of whether or not we like the content, we can stick to commenting about the topic and keep it on track, each and every one of us.

Because I think it's very important for people to get - admit - comment on as they can - what is happening with those basic demos of Ki. It's entry level stuff - and that is NOT a dig, I think it's intentional because the skill component to pull it off can be shown fairly easily - as well as the conditioning steps. From there, six months of work or so and you should be on your way - most likely not nearly as polished, because performing the exact drills is also a practiced skill. But you'll be able to more easily spot more and more the "how it works" pieces, methinks. And you need to have done that basic work and be able to exhibit that basic conditioning before you can do the more advanced stuffs (similar to Tohei's Ki tests in that regard).

And I'm still not talking about Ushiro or what other people say about him!!
Budd:

I will PM you regarding my work with the wrestler's. They are eating it up and have been able to rapidly employ the small tidbits that I am feeding them. My apologies for the misdirection to the Ushiro Sensei topic.

It is interesting in that people who are getting some sense of what is going on are describing some similar experiences with the hands-on with Ikeda Sensei. I think that they are providing us with feedback as to where they are and what they are able to get from how Ikeda Sensei is moving.

The conditioning stuff is interesting in that the more I do some of the stuff that I do, the more aware I become of some body corrections that I was not aware that I was messing up so bad! That whole self-discovery stuff again. I love the wormhole nature of this work.

Time to teach the adult class!

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 01-27-2011, 04:37 PM   #129
Budd
 
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Graham - "Steal the technique" is a well known axiom in Asian martial arts. I've had it explicitly said to me in both gendai and koryu budo training. On a related tangent, I heard a pretty well known guy in these circles say one time, "Budo is about learning how to get close to someone, learning what they know and gaining the ability to kill them".

I won't claim it was said in all seriousness - nor am I going to ascribe any meaning to their personality, their intent, etc. But on that level I do understand where they're coming from in that at root there was a pragmatism inherent in this kind of training - that did become a form of self-cultivation over time - even while stemming from the ability to get the most personal power from a combative sense (ie, Now I can kill you).

I've also heard the" get it in 20 years" philosophy espoused in more than one milieu. If your experience is different, then great. I'm sure everyone has their own experiences. Though your salesman analogy has me a bit puzzled, I'm speaking of personal responsibility. The "goods" in many of these arts are reserved for those that are smart enough to figure out what's going on without being explicitly told (or by demonstrating that, get access to the "goods" - familial and ethnic proprietary "stuff" still sometimes being withheld).

So, while I appreciate your advice, I'd advise you to contribute to the topic, if you have anything to contribute and like has been asked many times - save the personality discussions for your gossip circles.

Regarding your thoughts indirectly "about" the topic - I'd disagree - I think people need to be able to contribute what they're seeing, if they want to have that discussion, and not be afraid to admit they know, don't know, have questions, have thoughts, ideas. That's if people do want to discuss the "how to's" and "how's it work's". If they don't, cool, nobody is forcing anyone to participate. Based on your description of a "progressive" description below, people should only speak about it if they are going to offer "I like how so and so did X". Given the reaction to the videos you posted of your practice, I understand why you'd feel that way - but I don't think it's productive to a discussion *about* what one is seeing and analyzing.

About me? Always trying to share and learn. Not part of a particular school or style anymore. Internal strength is my main obsession. I go try it out against people doing MMA as a kind of lab. Actually going to start fencing next week. Looks fun and I like swords. Have nothing for sale, sorry.

Though I actually do want to jump on the video train at some point because I do think it helps people as a tool to analyze what's going on. Will probably start over at QiJin though and I need to round up some *cough* volunteers.

Best/Budd

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Budd. I'm sure you do want to do all those things and I'm sure most students do too so I don't quite understand how you equate that with 'being told you'll get it in 20 years' as that's just a saying, I've never heard anyone say it or or believe it literally. In fact it's the type of thing people who have nothing to do with martial arts may say at a party to sound impressive.
I also think you've missed the point of what Mark was saying. He was trying to point out that if you promote 'stealing' and fast track learning, if you use that kind of terminology then all it does is give the impression of a con going on. It makes it sound like some smooth slick salesman.
I would advise you not to dress things up with things like that and any other salestalk as it doesn't show you in a good light.
Having said that, if you are discussing a respected persons way, actions, demonstrations, then why not do it in a positive manner?
For example: In such and such video I liked how he moved the uke in a smooth circle from his center and then........(you get the picture?) That would be from someone who says they know what's happening. Otherwise it would be more like: 'I get how he moves uke around from center but didn't understand how he then caused her to come back in towards him'
This would be far more of a progressive discussion than pointing out it's JUST this or it's just that and he didn't do this or that or mentioning his students or his teacher or anything else for that matter.
Food for thought I hope. I'm sure you know the principles you know but I'm not sure what your purpose is? Are you trying to learn something? Are you trying to share something? Are you trying to sell something? I'm curious.
Regards.G.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 04:41 PM   #130
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Excellent - look forward to having the discussion. Most of the grappling I'm doing now is the no-gi submission stuff, but wrestling still seems to rule the day as the takedown from standing/clinch work.

Regarding body conditioning - a year and a half ago, I started to finally "get" where I was being uber tight and directing power locally from the shoulders. Been working on isolating and correcting that ever since - with steps forward and back, making incremental progress and having exceedingly cranky moments about the whole business. So I understand the pain around connection/discovery/rework/oh-crap-not-again . .

Best/Budd

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Budd:

I will PM you regarding my work with the wrestler's. They are eating it up and have been able to rapidly employ the small tidbits that I am feeding them. My apologies for the misdirection to the Ushiro Sensei topic.

It is interesting in that people who are getting some sense of what is going on are describing some similar experiences with the hands-on with Ikeda Sensei. I think that they are providing us with feedback as to where they are and what they are able to get from how Ikeda Sensei is moving.

The conditioning stuff is interesting in that the more I do some of the stuff that I do, the more aware I become of some body corrections that I was not aware that I was messing up so bad! That whole self-discovery stuff again. I love the wormhole nature of this work.

Time to teach the adult class!

Regards,

marc abrams
 
Old 01-27-2011, 05:36 PM   #131
graham christian
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Budd, appreciate the reply, now I understand where you're coming from.
The comments on usage of words still holds though as it's not an attack on your charachter or personality. I too understand where the concept of stealing comes from but feel it has been largely misunderstood and can be easily misunderstood and so it's best not to use it in my opinion.
In fact it could be explained better to others to stop them seeing it as stealing and why that strange idea come to exist in the first place.
As far as doing what you do and why you do it then I can only admire it for if they are the reasons then they are very admirable.
Discussing points to do with 'internal strength' would also be very interesting under it's own heading but for me not under this heading as I find it disrespectful to Ikeda Sensei and to good manners.
If he himself had posted it then that would be a different story for he knows what he is doing and thus could take questions about it.
So when you mention gossip then I think using another as a reason to discuss falls more into that category than using yourself under your own heading to do with your own views on the subject.
That said I know the term 'internal strength' is used by the many to represent an added untapped reservoir of ability but although I 100% agree with that fact I would never myself call it internal strength.
Anyway, thanks for your time and thoughts and I hope you are successful in your ventures.
Regards.G.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 05:52 PM   #132
Budd
 
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Hi Graham,

I know what you mean regarding words being misunderstood. Regarding disrespectful to Ikeda, I can see either side and if I got wind that he didn't want videos of himself dissected, I'd definitely take it further under consideration.

That being said - he's one of the guys I'd be out there busting my butt to emulate, if I was still doing aikido. My understanding is that he's essentially the inheritor of the ASU, but has no issues throwing on a white belt and going to learn from a teacher of a different style. He's one of the premier aikido practitioners in the US, but still keeps a student's mind? That's the kind of guy I'd wanna be modeling myself after.

So definitely no disrespect intended here when I analyze what he's doing and trying to show. It's honestly my hope that more and more people are doing that and busting their butts to figure it out - whether they talk about it here, in private, or wherever.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 06:14 PM   #133
graham christian
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Thanks for the generous reply Budd. I fully agree with you. In fact as I tell my students a true master is always learning for he has taken responsibility for being the best student and teacher he can be
Regards. G.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 04:47 AM   #134
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Back on to the original topic . . what Ikeda Sensei is doing and showing. I have to call out/tease Lynn Seiser for immediately cautioning about talking about Ikeda. Folks, break out of this rut that the sensei is beyond reproach or examination - in Ikeda's case, obviously, he's trying to get people to get it!
That is certainly not what I said or meant.

I invite and enjoy examining and discussing what I have learned on this journey.

I am cautious about discussing issues with people who have nothing to add, have no direct experience with the individual/subject, but know you are wrong in your direct experience and personal conceptualization.

Sometimes the caution is not about what is being discussed but who you are discussing it with.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:04 AM   #135
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I am cautious about discussing issues with people who have nothing to add, have no direct experience with the individual/subject, but know you are wrong in your direct experience and personal conceptualization.

Sometimes the caution is not about what is being discussed but who you are discussing it with.
I've seen that approach a number of times in the more 'spiritual' arts, like Aikido and some sects of Tai Chee. In one Aikido dojo, run by a famous Japanese shihan, I was told that there were 2 Republicans among the Aikido students and none of the other students would talk to them. I'm sure the shihan wasn't told about this, though; if I told you who the shihan was it would rock your boat.

The disappointing thing about your commentary, to me, Lynn, is that it once again discusses personality issues and not facts. I've been watching these discussions purely to see if someone comes up with some facts that a newby can use. So far, nothing I've seen can be used, but there's been a lot of discussion about who conforms enough to meet approval of a select few. When challenged for actual facts, there is wide and vague assurance about who knows anything, but no facts to support it. Me, I take someone's word, but I ask for facts.

Ikeda Sensei is not, as far as I'm aware, making sure that only the right kind of believers and conformers come to his workshops. Not that he's oblivious to practicality... one of his long-term students indicated to me that Ikeda Sensei is pretty much aware that a number of 'seniors' are not ever going to change to using ki/kokyu skills and so he doesn't focus much on them. But he doesn't cut them out of discussion, as far as I've heard.

I wonder at what level is an Aikidoist's demonstrations above discussion and dissection? Is it the yudansha ranks and above or could we include some mudansha as being undiscussable, particularly by outsiders? We should be careful where we start the segregation.

I would personally assume, unless told otherwise, that Ikeda's putting on public demonstrations indicates that he's aware of and doesn't mind that people try to discuss *how* things are done.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:58 AM   #136
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Phi, that's an excellent example and damn if Ushiro isn't hitting the three fundamental pieces . . (my interpretation - someone else feel free to jump in and disagree):

1) Connected - Make the physical connection between yourself and the other person (this is easy, it's accomplished on touch)

2) Unity - Unify your center with the other person's so that you are a "four-legged animal" that you are in control of (this needs to be felt and grasped as a "skill", then conditioned with training partners giving you a dumb force to work with so that you can develop the skill)

3) Change my inside - Move your center through the other person's center and you will move them (the internal part of this being that once you have some skill, you don't have to visibly "move" to accomplish this based on what most observers can see, hence uke's balance moving back until it's broken while Ushiro doesn't appear to "move"). On a related note, I've heard from attendees to Chen Bing's lessons that his recommendation on addressing an incoming force (push, pull, grab, etc.) is to "change the inside".

Anyways, them's my $0.02 based on Phi's example - anyone want to add, disagree, or otherwise participate?

Best/Budd

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
how's about using an example as a way to start the discussion?

uke stands in forward stand with fist out like so (hopefully the image shown)

nage stands in natural stand in front of uke with left palm rested against the front knuckles of the fist (i had seen Ikeda sensei did it with one finger and on the receiving end of such finger too). so, Ikeda sensei was nage. he would said three things (with accent): "connected", "unity", "change my inside". after a time, slowly, you can see uke posture shifted slowly toward his rear "third leg" (toward right rear) and lose his/her/it balance and staggered. and you will notice that Ikeda sensei body didn't move.

so, would that example be an ok starting point for the discussion?
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:05 AM   #137
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The disappointing thing about your commentary, to me, Lynn, is that it once again discusses personality issues and not facts. I've been watching these discussions purely to see if someone comes up with some facts that a newby can use. So far, nothing I've seen can be used, but there's been a lot of discussion about who conforms enough to meet approval of a select few. When challenged for actual facts, there is wide and vague assurance about who knows anything, but no facts to support it. Me, I take someone's word, but I ask for facts.
You, yet again, bring up personalities in that you've seen nothing that can be used except people only discussing conformity and approval of authority. You've set yourself up as an authority to know all this, yet you have not truly contributed to this thread, either. Do you actually have something that you *want* to share? I bold "want" because I *know* that you do have the skills and abilities to actively contribute a lot of very good information. Instead, you sit back, poke people with subtle and not-so subtle jabs, and wait for people to post information.

Asking for information is fine, but how about actually contributing *your* truthful, factual, and detailed breakdown of Ikeda sensei's demos of ki and letting people start their conversations from there? Your words, "If anyone is interested in dissecting various demonstrations until the principle is very clear". As someone who has set himself up as a person who can determine good, bad, fact, assumption, etc in the world of internal skills, how about leading the way?
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:18 AM   #138
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I've been watching these discussions purely to see if someone comes up with some facts that a newby can use. So far, nothing I've seen can be used..
I respectfully challenge this. In what way is it true?
Even just this morning; these two excellent posts are usable by beginners 1/here & 2/here.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:58 AM   #139
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Budd, a couple of disagreements. One , Ushiro is not on this thread is he? Phi is interpreting Ikeda

1) Yes, but as nage, how do you push or pull or what? How much connection do you need?

2) I know what you mean, but can you parse this? This is buzz word without explanation. What happens to the other four legged animal?

3) more buzzwords; move your center through their center? you mean take my belly button and rub it against his ( I know you know, please unpack)

thanks Phi and Budd

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Phi, that's an excellent example and damn if Ushiro isn't hitting the three fundamental pieces . . (my interpretation - someone else feel free to jump in and disagree):

1) Connected - Make the physical connection between yourself and the other person (this is easy, it's accomplished on touch)

2) Unity - Unify your center with the other person's so that you are a "four-legged animal" that you are in control of (this needs to be felt and grasped as a "skill", then conditioned with training partners giving you a dumb force to work with so that you can develop the skill)

3) Change my inside - Move your center through the other person's center and you will move them (the internal part of this being that once you have some skill, you don't have to visibly "move" to accomplish this based on what most observers can see, hence uke's balance moving back until it's broken while Ushiro doesn't appear to "move"). On a related note, I've heard from attendees to Chen Bing's lessons that his recommendation on addressing an incoming force (push, pull, grab, etc.) is to "change the inside".

Anyways, them's my $0.02 based on Phi's example - anyone want to add, disagree, or otherwise participate?

Best/Budd

Alfonso Adriasola
 
Old 01-28-2011, 09:39 AM   #140
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
Budd, a couple of disagreements. One , Ushiro is not on this thread is he? Phi is interpreting Ikeda

1) Yes, but as nage, how do you push or pull or what? How much connection do you need?

2) I know what you mean, but can you parse this? This is buzz word without explanation. What happens to the other four legged animal?

3) more buzzwords; move your center through their center? you mean take my belly button and rub it against his ( I know you know, please unpack)

thanks Phi and Budd
Proving the point I was about to make. If you already have some idea what Ikeda Sensei is talking about, his explanation gives you something to work with. If you don't, I think it's likely to go sailing right over your head.

Arguably, the primary role of someone in his position should be to teach the teachers anyway, who will then go back and teach their own students. The extent to which that is actually happening is a topic for another thread.

Katherine
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:17 AM   #141
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Ooh, disagreements and a gauntlet? Accepted!!

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
Budd, a couple of disagreements. One , Ushiro is not on this thread is he? Phi is interpreting Ikeda
Is that one or two disagreements? Kidding, point taken.

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
1) Yes, but as nage, how do you push or pull or what? How much connection do you need?
So, the demo was nage to put the flat of his palm on the knuckles of the outstretched punching hand (Phi mentioned finger/finger - tried that and I can get it to work fine on a dumb force). That should be enough connection, but I can see it being really easy for nage to use local arm/shoulder inappropriately. My preferred position for practice purposes would a hybrid Greco over/under pulled out from the body-body clinch range to be more in the judo grips range - this pic of Kano and Mifune should illustrate the distance I'm talking about:



On second thought, the grips are fine, but I prefer to use a hooked hand around uke's close arm (which they mirror) and the flat hand on the neck/collarbone area to just emphasize that you ideally are letting the arms "hang" on the other person rather than trying to use them for anything more than to connect and transmit your other forces (more buzzwords - I know - I'll come back on this one). The point being is that to start to train this skill - more contact points are good. As you improve and refine, though - the idea is you can do steps 1-3 on any touch (ie. kuzushi on contact).

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
2) I know what you mean, but can you parse this? This is buzz word without explanation. What happens to the other four legged animal?
I struggle with appropriately explaining this one as well - but if we look at the "cosmology" diagram of Person bridging Heaven/Earth and translate that to being in balance such that you can direct the push of the ground up underneath you in coordination with gravity pulling down on you (probably still in buzzword territory, but this imagery has been the most useful for me as I train the inside stuffs) so that you have constant harmony between those two forces (and how they naturally join, relate, *cough* spiral - is a whole 'nother discussion). Your center/middle/hara is the "router" (metaphor, yadda) for the management of how this is happening (other buzzterms are dantien, articulated through training/conditioning can do other things, too), while your brain is the cpu.

When I make physical contact with another person (and my wife wallops me when I hug her and do this without thinking - true! Okay, fine, sometimes I do this on purpose, too *ouch*) I am able to extend the management of the up/down forces balanced inside me to the other person, such that I also manage their up/down balance through their middle via mine as I adjust the alignment of their up/down (can be overt to very subtle). How this happens (based on my caveman's grasp of science) has to do with micromuscles connecting the bones, muscles, ligaments, etc. that can be trained to react to our intent/mind-directed forces. It begins as a not-necessarily-impressive skill, but then can be conditioned over time (lots of places to go awry with this, so should be done with care and the input of someone with a clue) to be very powerful.

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
3) more buzzwords; move your center through their center? you mean take my belly button and rub it against his ( I know you know, please unpack)
Fair question - So if we accept my earlier descriptions - this part assumes that you made a successful connection by which you are now managing the natural up/down forces acting on yourself and the other person. At this point it's mentally directing your combined up/down into a break in uke's balance point (to use Phi's example, the "third leg" between and behind uke's feet). This doesn't mean they can't bring other forces to bear! Which is why it's pretty critical when you are just learning to do this against a dumb force.

But as your skill of "force management" gets more sophisticated over time and your body gets better conditioned to physically handle and deliver loads appropriately (think relaxing the upper boy, strengthening the lower body, strengthening and learning how the middle coordinates - just for starters) - this can become both powerful and subtle such that if someone tries to push me, I can reply with our combined up/downs slightly tangental to their incoming push such that they move themselves into a compromising position. Or maybe better put - I maintain harmony with the natural forces of heaven and earth and the other person defeats him or herself.

And again, this is the entry level foot in the door stuff you have to be able to do in order to get to any of the really WTF things, based on my current level of understanding.

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
thanks Phi and Budd
I hope that helped some - it's hard and tiring to both think these things through AND then figure out a way to speak them plainly to folks that don't necessarily use the same terms (or DO . . which can be another problem).

That said, I hope others find it useful and participate - agree, disagree, argue, etc. Whatever.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:21 AM   #142
Budd
 
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Proving the point I was about to make. If you already have some idea what Ikeda Sensei is talking about, his explanation gives you something to work with. If you don't, I think it's likely to go sailing right over your head.
I totally get that. Hopefully, others are also getting interested in chasing down that basic "some idea what" and can add their input, help the discussion, etc.

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Arguably, the primary role of someone in his position should be to teach the teachers anyway, who will then go back and teach their own students. The extent to which that is actually happening is a topic for another thread.

Katherine
Right, I understand that's the model and a larger breakout discussion regarding its transmission is definitely merited. I'd be interested in how the folks within aikido would drive that discussion.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:29 AM   #143
graham christian
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Mike, I think you've misunderstood what Lynne Sensei was saying.
It's not a matter of 'not wanting others to know' or keeping things secret and for the selected few, it's a matter of is this person receptive to what I have to say or even able to be open minded enough to at least acknowledge it even if they disagree.
This thread just reached a point where someone gave an example and someone else gave their understanding as to what would be happening from their understanding of 'internal strength'. That's fair enough isn't it?
Then that brings up, as Katherine points out the difficulty of conveying what you know in a way that the other person will understand, or even others following the thread will understand.
It's hard to convey an understanding just with writing, it's quite a skill in it's own right, and add to that when you are teaching someone who doesn't understand but wants to, if you know them and their interests and way that they think then you can convey it from 'their point of view' so to speak. For example: if your student is an artist you could relate extending ki and leading the partner to two people sharing the same paint brush and painting a circle or some such visualization.
The main point basically I'm making is to understand it's not an easy thing to do on this media which doesn't mean don't try it just means understand the difficulty.
Regards.G.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 10:35 AM   #144
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Proving the point I was about to make. If you already have some idea what Ikeda Sensei is talking about, his explanation gives you something to work with. If you don't, I think it's likely to go sailing right over your head.

Arguably, the primary role of someone in his position should be to teach the teachers anyway, who will then go back and teach their own students. The extent to which that is actually happening is a topic for another thread.

Katherine
I actually have an idea of what he says ( I even have held his hand) and I can work with it. Likewise I know Phi has had face to face and can grasp the demo. It is a simple demo; It is not supposed to be only for the illuminated; If you grab sensei you get to feel in addition to listen.

Points- Uke provides a steady push in the direction of the "attack" , for Nage to work on

- Nage allows that force into him, straight to the ground. No pushing back required if force is incoming

- Nage can "resolve" the sum of vectors in such a way that the resulting force vector is towards an imbalance point in Uke.

- The change of vectors of force does not require moving nage's limbs or stance, the change is of alignment in your body, through very small but widespread re-setting of your sails (to throw in more metaphors ), this does not involve tensing big muscles, it uses Nages body held together by tissue and even breathing affects the paths which force goes through Nage...

- There is no gotcha thing going on here;

Ikeda sensei has said repeatedly that being a teacher does not mean you know this; and in this respect (basic movement principles) beginners and teachers are in the same boat. Don't save it for later; all it means is you start later.

Alfonso Adriasola
 
Old 01-28-2011, 11:03 AM   #145
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It's not a matter of 'not wanting others to know' or keeping things secret and for the selected few, it's a matter of is this person receptive to what I have to say or even able to be open minded enough to at least acknowledge it even if they disagree.
Exactly and thank you.

Nothing is secret to an open mind.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
 
Old 01-28-2011, 11:27 AM   #146
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Having some direct experience with Ikeda sensei, my thoughts:
1. What Ikeda sensei shows in his seminars is based upon the presumption that those attending have a basic understanding of proper structure and body alignment. I believe he also expects most in attendance to have a basic comprehension of technique.
2. I believe much of the instruction Ikeda sensei is based upon layering on top of proper structure and alignment internal movement that strengthens the entire shape. I believe this is the advanced level of training where Sensei is showing "make connection."

I think you need to give Sensei a reasonable expectation that he will work on something more than basic training even if it still looks like basic training. I think Ikeda sensei relies on other instructors (and certainly dojo sensei) to prepare students to see what he is doing and eliminate the "gee, that's exactly what we do in class," responses; no, but if what you are doing in class is the proper structure than you can spend more time seeing what is different in Ikeda sensei's technique than what is similar.

Lately, Ikeda sensei has been including new exercises many students have not seen. These exercises need to be incorporated into aikido curriculum and used as part of daily training so the next time Sensei is in town we can move onto the next step. I think Ikeda sensei, along with others in the US, are trying to re-incorporate some of these basic internal exercises back into daily class... They almost have to be collusive exercises at this point because we're like virgins rolling around in the dark with the stuff.

That being said, Ikeda Sensei is starting to raise the bar slightly too by giving back to aikido these exercises... Don't think he won't notice the 3rd time you attend a seminar and you're still not getting what he is showing...
 
Old 01-28-2011, 12:12 PM   #147
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Lately, Ikeda sensei has been including new exercises many students have not seen.
Can you describe at least the outer form if not the inner?
Interesting that they are recent. Did he say where they came from? That might be of interest to me..
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2011 at 12:18 PM.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 12:25 PM   #148
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Nothing is secret to an open mind.
to hide things, sometimes you leave them out in the open.

you know we could go at this sort of things for days.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 02:02 PM   #149
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Can you describe at least the outer form if not the inner?
Interesting that they are recent. Did he say where they came from? That might be of interest to me..
Cheers
Dan
Dan- I wish I could tell you more. I started noticing more of these "exercises" maybe starting 3-4 years ago. Sensei did not voice to me from where he derived his exercises or new[er] explanations; I did not presume to ask though. My suspician is that timing is awfully close to some serious overlap with Ushiro Sensei visiting Colorado, getting involved in summer camp, and spending some time with Ikeda sensei. I got suspicous and bought some Ushiro sensei DVDs from Sensei when he was in SC last year. I am looking through them now for an origin and to see how the exercises relate...

As for many of the exercises... I have seen a number of old-skool stuff, (torifune, sayo undo, hasso/happo undo, zenpo undo) coming back in style. These are centering exercises exploring the directions of extension while maintaining balance and posture. Now, these are not the sloppy, "throws your hands out and back" stuff, they really remind me of stance-building kata and proper breathing.

Another series of exercises I have seen are a little more touchy-feely. Your partner assumes a strong/comfortable stance and you apply an external pressure to solicit and shift in balance. This is where Ikeda sensei talks about the "aiki" connection - at the point preceding interaction. Some amount of this exercise is focusing on where you want your partner to feel pressure from your hand - his back foot, his front toe, his inside back knee, etc. Ideally, you're reducing the amount of pressure applied while achieving the same balance shift.

Truth be told, I do not know if these exercises and demos would qualify as internal strength or not. To me, it seems clear we are focusing on centering ourselves and becoming sensitive to how we connect with our partner. 20 years ago, Kuriowa sensei would probably just call it kihon...

Also, it may be that Sensei has been doing the same thing all along and he is just better explaning it now; part of that improvement may be his [better] selection of exercises and explanantions...

Last edited by jonreading : 01-28-2011 at 02:04 PM.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 02:04 PM   #150
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Re: Ikeda Sensei Demos of Ki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You, yet again, bring up personalities in that you've seen nothing that can be used except people only discussing conformity and approval of authority. You've set yourself up as an authority to know all this, yet you have not truly contributed to this thread, either. Do you actually have something that you *want* to share? I bold "want" because I *know* that you do have the skills and abilities to actively contribute a lot of very good information. Instead, you sit back, poke people with subtle and not-so subtle jabs, and wait for people to post information.

Asking for information is fine, but how about actually contributing *your* truthful, factual, and detailed breakdown of Ikeda sensei's demos of ki and letting people start their conversations from there? Your words, "If anyone is interested in dissecting various demonstrations until the principle is very clear". As someone who has set himself up as a person who can determine good, bad, fact, assumption, etc in the world of internal skills, how about leading the way?
Mark, have you really read the early part of this thread? Why don't you try to one-up the details that I gave instead of taking shots? Let's see if you can add anything.

Mike Sigman
 

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