Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Oh, I would quickly like to add. The pushing you into the wall thing would be a good example of something that an athlete should not be able to do. If any of you could make a video of this, It could quickly make a point. Please put up something that can be looked at.

Chris Hein wrote: There is a standard point being made that I have to feel it to know it. I have in the past (although not yet in this thread) made the point that group think, mental suggestion, magic tricks and other means can be used to create these types of situations. Feeling it is not enough. You have to be able to objectively look at something physical. You must be able to step away from the emotions of the moment and see what is happening. However no one will put up anything concrete that can be looked at objectively. David Blaine can do all manner of amazing things, but we all know he is a trickster. The fact that none of the IP IS or whatever you want to call them guys want to put out video, they hold tightly controlled seminars, and otherwise seem mysterious and vague should make you question it, unless you're working on faith.

Several of the teachers mentioned in this thread give public seminars all over the world. Many of the teachers mentioned in this thread have been captured on video. If you have never felt or seen any of the phenomena being discussed, it's because you haven't tried.

Katherine

Chris Hein wrote: Oh, I would quickly like to add. The pushing you into the wall thing would be a good example of something that an athlete should not be able to do. If any of you could make a video of this, It could quickly make a point. Please put up something that can be looked at.

Yay! We're making progress!

Katherine

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: Several of the teachers mentioned in this thread give public seminars all over the world. Many of the teachers mentioned in this thread have been captured on video. If you have never felt or seen any of the phenomena being discussed, it's because you haven't tried. Katherine

Plus there are some great videos of Chinese IMA on youtube - but guess what, they won't convince the sceptics either, what a surprise! Because you cannot see how they do it, and because it does not look like MMA...

It also keeps amusing me in these threads how "group think" is always the other party.

Chris Hein wrote: The problem with this is that all the lists presented are working under that assumption that what you think is happening is happening. It's circular reasoning. You won't question from outside of the belief that the stuff you are observing is happening the way you think it is. I am only questioning from outside of this belief, because I don't hold it. I can't have someone push me in the wall with all their force, and simply walk away from the wall. Nor have I ever seen anyone else do that. I can however think of several situations where this could be made possible. I don't know what you are seeing, if you show it to me, I can work with it, but words are not doing it. There is a standard point being made that I have to feel it to know it. I have in the past (although not yet in this thread) made the point that group think, mental suggestion, magic tricks and other means can be used to create these types of situations. Feeling it is not enough. You have to be able to objectively look at something physical. You must be able to step away from the emotions of the moment and see what is happening. However no one will put up anything concrete that can be looked at objectively. David Blaine can do all manner of amazing things, but we all know he is a trickster. The fact that none of the IP IS or whatever you want to call them guys want to put out video, they hold tightly controlled seminars, and otherwise seem mysterious and vague should make you question it, unless you're working on faith.

I hear ya Chris except that every..single...person keeps telling you it is from conditioning the body so that it moves and responds as a connected whole in a different way. You should at least acknowledge that man. No one is talking about tricks and magic. I would have walked away if I could not have made it work and improve my game. And it did. Period.
Now you have others...to debate with fairly... who are telling you the same thing. Now..mind you...they train with different people, but express similar results?
Hhmmm....maybe them ol masters really did know something after all that is not expressed in crossfit and P90X
Cheers
Dan

Chris Hein wrote: Oh, I would quickly like to add. The pushing you into the wall thing would be a good example of something that an athlete should not be able to do. If any of you could make a video of this, It could quickly make a point. Please put up something that can be looked at.

From here, this now devolves into the same old discussion about why video fails. You will only believe it when you do the pushing yourself. It is good to be a doubting Thomas. Very good. Your conclusions will be hard earned and something foundational to build on.

Edit: Nicholas: Yes. Your point on groupthink is very relevant. Interesting observation.

Dan, I'm guessing you are the guy who can do the wall thing. Will you make a video?

Chris Hein wrote: Oh, I would quickly like to add. The pushing you into the wall thing would be a good example of something that an athlete should not be able to do. If any of you could make a video of this, It could quickly make a point. Please put up something that can be looked at.

Chris,

You've already established that your defacto stance is that it's all mental suggestion, hero worship or collusion. So what exactly will a video "prove" to you? It's far easier to concoct a convincing looking video than it is to get someone to believe you're doing something to them ,face to face, that you really aren't doing. If you don't believe, a video isn't going to convince you.

Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: Plus there are some great videos of Chinese IMA on youtube - but guess what, they won't convince the sceptics either, what a surprise! Because you cannot see how they do it, and because it does not look like MMA... It also keeps amusing me in these threads how "group think" is always the other party.

Well, you saw it being tested as a separate skill set. The problem is with use.
Some guys can do this and show real power but really can't fight well. So, the average MAer says..."ya....so what? Big deal."
Other guys can do this and can fight..so...the average MAer says "Wow look what he can do fighting."
But that doesn't really validate the IS does it?
Others can't do this but can fight well...so...MAers say.."Who needs that?"
That's why I don't over-sell it. I have trained guys for MMA bouts and never brought this up.
I think it is great stuff, You will ...use it...in fighting..if you know how to fight because you take your body with you, As Jon noted most people will tell you, you feel different..
You can use it Martial arts, where the the difference is more pronounced because there is less pressure than in fighting.

All the best
Dan

Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: It also keeps amusing me in these threads how "group think" is always the other party.

There's groupthink in both sides.

Dan Harden wrote: You can use it Martial arts, where the the difference is more pronounced because there is less pressure than in fighting.

Interesting statement.

Dan Harden wrote: I hear ya Chris except that every..single...person keeps telling you it is from conditioning the body so that it moves and responds as a connected whole in a different way. You should at least acknowledge that man.

It's also worth noting that you are hearing the same things from multiple people who don't know each other, or in some cases who agree about pretty much *nothing* else. Either there's really something there, or there's a mass delusion going on. Mass delusion is possible, I guess, but it's probably easier to actually develop the skills than to perpetuate a delusion among so many people for such a long time.

Katherine

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: Just to clarify so that this doesn't sound completely fantastic, I do not believe David intends people to think that Ark shoved him back 25 feet in the air. He probably was poped up in the air a bit, but took 25 feet to regain his balance as he moved backwards.

Hunter,

I described it in detail in a post right after it happened and a neurologist at the seminar also estimated 25 feet.

What happened was that I felt Ark start pushing and I started holding him back. The push built up and I held harder. I could tell the bo was beginning to move toward me and I tightened my hands and increased my push back and looked down as I also pressed down.

Then it was like a literal explosion and I felt as if a huge wall of wind hit me. It blasted me up and back and I went reeling backward about ten feet, back-pedalling as my feet tried to catch up with my upper body. From that point I came off my feet and did go backward through the air about another ten feet. I hit on my shoulders and slid backward about another five feet before I stopped moving. 130-pound Ark sent over 190 pounds 25 feet across the dojo before the 190+ pounds lost its momentum and stopped.

I was laughing all the way!

He should sell that as a ride!

It was great!

Thanks.

David

Chris Hein wrote: David Blaine can do all manner of amazing things, but we all know he is a trickster. The fact that none of the IP IS or whatever you want to call them guys want to put out video, they hold tightly controlled seminars, and otherwise seem mysterious and vague should make you question it, unless you're working on faith.

I would disagree with that statement. There is plenty of video out there, but you have not looked particularly hard given the examples i gave.

An aunkai example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQ...tailpage#t=12s

How does Akuzawa get that guy up in the air? You will notice that he moves forwards after the guy is already going back. Nor does he drop down and upwards. I seriously doubt there is colussion as that would take some practice on the seminar goers part to be able to jump in seiza like that.

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: It's also worth noting that you are hearing the same things from multiple people who don't know each other, or in some cases who agree about pretty much *nothing* else. Either there's really something there, or there's a mass delusion going on. Mass delusion is possible, I guess, but it's probably easier to actually develop the skills than to perpetuate a delusion among so many people for such a long time. Katherine

Yup!
Even more conclusive when they have trained with different people and do not know each other and have never spoken to one another, but arrived at similar views.
How do you get that to happen?
As I keep pointing out, among this group -if you want to call it a group- is an ever growing cross section of Martial artists from Koryu to MMA. It defies group think, in that it is teachers from different cultures, from widely different arts, training with people who learned these skills from different cultures in different arts. Were it any other venue or product it would be preeetttty much conclusive. .
All of whom advocates that it is NOT the same as normally trained athletisism but is specific in that it is trained differently, except for Chris's teacher who sees it as one and the same thing.
Cheers
Dan.

Dan

First off, this comes from me, not my teacher. Second, the group of internal martial artists that is not the Aikiweb IP IS or whatever group is MUCH larger than this small group of internal. Most IMA would say Dan, Ark, Mike who? Your group is not that large, although you're working it, I'll give you that.

I could probably find 50 people who think chickens can speak English. People from all over the world, different people who have never met. I could put them on a forum together and try to tell them that chickens can not in fact speak English. Those 50 people would act like I'm crazy, because they all believe it. Looking at this small group it would be easy for them to say, "Chris, everyone is telling you the same thing, why don't you listen, chickens can clearly speak English."

Hunter,
I have seen lots of videos of internal, I like to look at all these things quite a bit, but I wanted you to specifically show me the videos that you think are important.

I don't see anything on the video of Ark that an athlete cannot do. The only thing I can't do as well as Ark on that video is the suwari waza kokyu ho shove. Then again Ark has been doing this longer then I have. What do you think is on that video that an athlete cannot do?

Chris Hein wrote: First off, this comes from me, not my teacher. Second, the group of internal martial artists that is not the Aikiweb IP IS or whatever group is MUCH larger than this small group of internal. Most IMA would say Dan, Ark, Mike who? Your group is not that large, although you're working it, I'll give you that.

Gee. Where have I heard that before? Maybe from Dan? Mike? and others? They have well acknowledged that the worldwide group is much larger than themselves. But of those in the US, you won't find many, and of those, how many will tell you and show you in open seminars exactly how they do it?

Yeah. The internal group is not only very big, but it's very, very old. And modern aikido is very young and most players have only very shallow roots even in that.

Mike and Dan both have aikido roots much deeper than most of those...including yourself.

Chris Hein wrote: I could probably find 50 people who think chickens can speak English. People from all over the world, different people who have never met. I could put them on a forum together and try to tell them that chickens can not in fact speak English. Those 50 people would act like I'm crazy, because they all believe it. Looking at this small group it would be easy for them to say, "Chris, everyone is telling you the same thing, why don't you listen, chickens can clearly speak English."

Uh....yeah. And some chickens can even write in English!!!

But it seems they can't back up what they write!!!

At least one of them is on this very thread!

See if you can find him!

Chris Hein wrote: Hunter, I have seen lots of videos of internal, I like to look at all these things quite a bit, but I wanted you to specifically show me the videos that you think are important. I don't see anything on the video of Ark that an athlete cannot do.

Gee. That not only sounds myseriously like faith and belief but also like "So-and-so can do that, too!"

But didn't you say you can do anything you see on video?

Put up, Bud! Let's see you lift someone off the ground as Ark does in that vid.

Chris Hein wrote: The only thing I can't do as well as Ark on that video is the suwari waza kokyu ho shove.

Shove? Bad form, Chris. Ark effortlessly lifts that guy up and sets him back. No "shoving" involved. Shame on you, man.

Chris Hein wrote: Then again Ark has been doing this longer then I have.

And he also knows what he's talking about, Chris, as you seem not to.

Chris Hein wrote: What do you think is on that video that an athlete cannot do?

Dig 'em up, Chris! Where are these fabled athletes? And what kind of athlete are you refering to? Wrestlers? Long-distance runners? Swimmers????? Where are they, man? Not imaginary 6 foot bunnies, but real people. Let's see 'em.

I'm still waiting for you to show us what you can do with a bo and a martial artist 40% heavier than yourself. You sure have been quiet. I was hearing crickets, but now it sounds like "Bock-bock-bock! Bock-bock-bock!"

Geez. Put up or shut up, already.

Respectfully,

David

David Orange,
I'm not trying to insult you personally. I am asking questions about what you are doing. Please refrain from personally insulting me. Thank you.

Chris Hein wrote: David Orange, I'm not trying to insult you personally. I am asking questions about what you are doing. Please refrain from personally insulting me. Thank you.

I and several others have told you specific things time and again and you have come back repeatedly with statements like "The problem with this is that all the lists presented are working under that assumption that what you think is happening is happening. It's circular reasoning." and "I have in the past (although not yet in this thread) made the point that group think, mental suggestion, magic tricks and other means can be used to create these types of situations." and "no one will put up anything concrete that can be looked at objectively." and "You must be able to step away from the emotions of the moment and see what is happening."

That is rude, insulting and unworthy of a "teacher" of martial arts. And I note that you rely on thirty-dollar sentences where you accuse others of using ten-dollar words. We don't want the flowery sentences. Just show what you claim you can do.

I'd suggest that you step away from the emotions of the moment and see what's happening. You have basically called all thes IP advocates idiots and liars and dupes while at the same time claiming that you can do all the things they describe. Basically, like someone else in another thread, you're saying "It's snake oil But I can do it, too!"

Yet you won't step up and replicate these feats you claim you can replicate. And you offer the imaginary athlete who you imagine can do what Ark can do as proof of....something? In other words, you're begging for ridicule. To those who can see, of course, you're ridiculing yourself.

So respond to the many, many solid examples people have given. Show that you can do all those things Ark does. To continue making such specious claims insults yourself and everyone on the forum. So you stop insulting us and we'll show you some respect.

Thanks.

David

I was simply trying to have a logical conversation. I'm sorry if you were offended by this.

Please, both of you, stay within bounds of civility and just stop pushing at each other; it serves no useful or productive purpose. And no I don't care who started or who is right. Thank you.

...

David Orange wrote: Michael Varin wrote: Wow. The confusion persists! Man, this stuff just eats you alive, doesn't it?

And there you have it.

My above quoted comment at the beginning of this thread had nothing to do with "internal strength."

It had to do with something that is all too common here on Aikiweb, that is, posters' apparent lack of ability or lack of desire to read, comprehend, and address the topics of discussion or specific questions of a thread.

We all know how quickly these threads degrade once they become infected with agendas, bickering, and tangents. That is why I suggested a format for responses that would allow both posters and observers to more accurately evaluate people's positions and the weight of their contributions.

With all due respect to the "it has to be felt" nature of some of the things we discuss here, this is a forum that relies on verbal communication (with the occasional aid of videos and images).

Like it or not clarity, objectivity, logic, and patience are required to overcome the imperfections in human perception.

Otherwise, we are just exchanging "warm fuzzies" and insults, grandstanding, and making sarcastic remarks, etc…

If that is where we want to go, fine, I can do that with the best of them.

But at that point Aikiweb is for entertainment value only. And it will lower us as a community.

That would be a shame.

Full disclosure: Chris Hein is a good friend of mine, and longtime training partner.

Chris definitely is responsible for some of the negativity and absurdity of this thread, but he is not alone. David Orange's posts spiraled completely out of control, and he was the one that took this to a personal level… I guess in the interest of humor. And take a look at the thread, there wasn't much of an on point contribution until Jon Haas at page 5, post 114 (apologies to those earlier posters who did contribute), so many of the early posters are at fault as well. Let's remember, this thread started with questions, not an argument. You cannot answer questions with questions. You cannot answer questions by begging the question.

It's fine to be forceful with points, to ask and expect answers to challenging questions, to argue, to use colorful language, and even to be confused or go off on tangents, but the level of vitriol is almost unacceptable.

I have noticed that there are a few new members and a few other members who have just started posting regularly. They are excited about aikido and are thinking about it with some depth. If you can't put more effort into your posts for yourself, consider doing it for them.

No one forces anyone to participate on this forum, so I would expect a higher level of discourse.

Maybe I'm a wishful thinker…

I do apologize for any fuel I threw on the fire. At several points I was just being onry.

As far as "PM's" go, those are private messages, I stand by what I said, but it wasn't meant to be brought into this thread; that is why I used the PM option.

My comments about circular reasoning were in no way meant as insults. That is what I feel is happening. And as far as making a video goes, give me a week or two. I have multiple jobs and a life as well. I will get to it I promise.

I apologize and would like to get on with the discussion.

If Chris wants David Orange to stop making fun of him, he needs to stop inviting insults. Dude is just asking for it. He asks people some questions, people clearly answer it, and yet he accuses them of circular reasoning and suggesting other insulting things it is like 'talking to people who are on a mission of faith'. How can you engage someone like that in a 'logical' discussion?

Clarity, objectivity, patience, and logic are not seen in Chris's posts.

1) Clarity--he doesn't know what he's talking about. The IP/Aiki guys are claiming they are doing something different, and have outlined in many posts what is occurring in their bodies, not in a mystical magical manner, but in a real physical manner. Some (like Tim Fong) have even described the phenomena in anatomical terms. Even when people here have demonstrated (in a physical level) that what they're doing is different from what Chris is doing, he still stubbornly insists that what he's doing encompasses the bodyskills that we talk about here.

2) Objectivity--he has no objectivity, but only speculation. He hasn't met Ark, Dan, or Mike. Therefore, he has no grounds to evaluate what they do. Martial arts is not a philosophical, dialectical thing--truth in martial arts is achieved on the mat. David calling Chris a chicken seems like an accurate statement--I mean why would you be afraid of meeting Dan? What do you have to lose besides your own cherished preconceptions/beliefs about martial arts? Even if you find out he sucks, the man will buy you dinner for crying out loud.

3) Patience--he fails to engage people's points. Hunter answered his questions, and it seemed as though Chris purposely overlooked them. If you want to engage people in a 'logical discussion', you have to engage the points they make, and not accuse them of 'circular reasoning' or suggesting the are 'fanatics'.

4) Logic--no logic either. For instance, he makes an analogue to David Blaine, suggesting that IP guys could be tricksters. Just as David Blaine takes control of logistics to bring about magical acts, he's suggesting that the IP guys do the same by not putting out videos and have tightly controlled seminars, and they do all this to facilitate an environment where mental suggestion is easily achieved. Sure that's logical, but the premises are clearly false. For one, Ark has a lot of videos out and has DVDS. Same with Mike. Secondly, I'm thinking you don't even have to go to seminars as you can do a private with Ark or you can even meet up with Dan, buy him dinner and a beer and then he will show you--I believe Dan met Mark Murray on his own, outside a seminar. There's also a open door policy in each cases--I'm sure Ark would be willing to spar with you, and Dan of course does that for fun. If you think it's all mental suggestion, I suggest you spar Dan or Ark. Or if that's too rough, I suggest you go at it on a freestyle stand-up grappling thing, since that's your range. If they can't throw you or you can throw them, then you can call bullshit on them..no mental suggestion shit here, just sheer physicality. In any case, comparing them to magicians is dishonest. Moreover, asking for video and then interpreting it based on your understanding and saying that that is what is actually happening is circular reasoning itself--you saying "this is what's happening, therefore is true" refers to its own validity. This stuff is more scientific than it is philosophical or magical. If you want to test your theory, your interpretation, you have to experiment, and cross-reference. In this case, if you think your interpretation encompasses what's going in the internal stuff, then you'll have to check with the guys who're saying something different. By meeting with these people, you will see if your interpretation/hypothesis holds true in reality, and see whether it trumps the other 'interpretations' out there. You saying "I can do what they do! But here is how I do it,and it's right, and they're wrong" is straight up intellectually dishonest.

It is for these reasons that people cannot take you seriously and discussion spirals into ridicule. If you want us to have a discussion with you, take the advice of your friend Michael Varin and start approaching discussion from the foundation of these 4 principals. People are making fun of you because your skepticism is dishonest. Skepticism can be good, but only if it is honest.

P.S.--Chris, Ark has been doing bodyskill for only 15 years I think. He started off with Tai Chi when he was 16, but it wasn't until his late 20's and early 30's that he started training this stuff seriously. It's not that far off from your 10 + years of aikido and training with Tim Cartmell.

P.P.S.--I don't think you are using the word 'faith' here correctly. 'Blind faith' which is what atheists like to pejoratively describe Christians and other religionists describes only an unchecked belief system that some Christians and religionists work to protect for fear of being wrong. In that case, 'working on faith' or 'working on blind faith' is bad. But 'true working on faith' is on some warrior shit. You essentially put your beliefs out there (whether it is beliefs in religion, in politics, in martial arts, in philosophy, etc.) and allow reality to burn down your beliefs. And it's called 'faith' because you have faith that the truth will stand up over the ashes that was once your fortresses of belief. In that case Chris, I implore you to get out there, allow reality to burn down the beliefs you cherish, and find the truth in martial arts. The worst that can happen is that you lose all beliefs...even then, you exchange that for the truth. The best thing that can happen is that you are correct, and that your interpretation is reality and from there, you will have the authority to call IP guys magicians and all that stuff. I have no problem with making fun and ridiculing charlatans and magicians, so if you were to find out that you were correct all along, I'd join you in the laughter and in the ridicule.