Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-28-2010, 02:00 PM   #1
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Still, if you use "ground path" and you only have it going one way, you're not doing what I'm doing. And it won't get you to where I'm going, basic exercise or not. Not saying one is bad or wrong, just saying it isn't what I'm doing and I don't think it was how Ueshiba did things. IMO, of course.
Hi Mark:

I'm curious regarding this distinction about "groundpath" and which way it goes. I wasn't aware that there was a direction that it travelled, particularly, since I always thought of it as a connection *between* the ground and the hand. Granted an argument can be made for one direction or the other if you look at classical texts, but you must have something specific in mind.

Could you clarify what it is you're thinking about and give us your opinion on the groundpath, how it works, and so on? Might be a productive discussion.

Thanks.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 02:51 PM   #2
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Doesn't groundpath "go" both ways?

You push into the ground on one side and into the "target" with the other?

And doesn't it really go through the center of the body, even when the straight line might be from rear foot through space to front hand? (though I intellectually understand that it can be manifested at any point on the body...)

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 03:38 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Doesn't groundpath "go" both ways?
Well, I dunno, David. Mark brought up something about people who only have it going in one direction and frankly I wasn't even aware some people thought that. I was trying to get some clarification about this topic of directionality.

If it's a groundpath, I guess it's a path that has the ground on one end of it. All the classical literature I've ever seen mentions "the support of the Earth", but it doesn't mention directions and if there's something I'm missing about directions I was just hoping to get filled in on it before I get too far behind.

Then, on the other hand, there is that traditional Asian perspective to think about in which the dantien/hara is the "center" and the path goes down to the ground from the dantien and up to the hands from the dantien/hara. Or I guess you could go by the old description of "groundpath" (I simply made up the term "groundpath" to indicate any/all of these) which talks about the jin that goes from the feet/ground, is controlled by the waist, and is expressed by the hands. That indicates an upward direction, I guess.

Then, on the third hand, we could do a Statics analysis and see what is happening by looking at a vector system that is in equilibrium and determine the direction of the force vector that is going from the point of contact on Nage to the ground.

These things have all been covered before and I'm always happy to get involved with a good vector analysis, but now I'm confronted with "Groundpaths" (tm) which seem to be travelling in directions somewhat akin to escalators. Boggles the mind. I'm just curious who on earth thinks that and what the rationale is behind it and how Mark himself defines "Groundpath" and how he uses multiple directions. Fascinating information.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 08:57 PM   #4
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Thanks.

I didn't see the original comment so I don't know the context. But I've come to understand the term (intellectually, at least) in the three ways you describe. Looking for it at all times has really changed the way I think about aikido and tai chi.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 09:36 PM   #5
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Thanks.

I didn't see the original comment so I don't know the context. But I've come to understand the term (intellectually, at least) in the three ways you describe. Looking for it at all times has really changed the way I think about aikido and tai chi.
But the groundpath part is only about the yang qi. What about the yin qi? There's so much more to all of this and most of it was figured out very long ago and codified. But this thing of directional groundpaths, which would be "directional yang qi" is something new to me. Maybe Mark can explain it for us.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2010, 10:36 PM   #6
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But the groundpath part is only about the yang qi. What about the yin qi? There's so much more to all of this and most of it was figured out very long ago and codified.
When I did the spear thrusting as Tim Fong describes in the Spear Thrusting thread, I felt a lot of support in the front side of my body and a lot of rising and going forward along the back and into my arms. Would this be the yin and yang qi? Are you saying the yin qi is not related to the groundpath? In spear thrusting, the groundpath would be rear foot to "spear" tip, wouldn't it? Would yin qi refer to the supporting aspect along the front of the body?

And if the yin qi is not related to groundpath, then the "passive" grounding of force through groundpath is still yang qi? And extending along the groundpath is also yang?

Is yin qi just the body's own support of itself?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 08:23 AM   #7
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
When I did the spear thrusting as Tim Fong describes in the Spear Thrusting thread, I felt a lot of support in the front side of my body and a lot of rising and going forward along the back and into my arms. Would this be the yin and yang qi? Are you saying the yin qi is not related to the groundpath? In spear thrusting, the groundpath would be rear foot to "spear" tip, wouldn't it? Would yin qi refer to the supporting aspect along the front of the body?

And if the yin qi is not related to groundpath, then the "passive" grounding of force through groundpath is still yang qi? And extending along the groundpath is also yang?

Is yin qi just the body's own support of itself?

Thanks.

David
I read through Tim's spear post and I didn't see where it had a lot to do with I.S. Qi doesn't have to do so much with the individual muscles like that. Jin you can do with a certain amount of muscle, but the purer the intent the better.

The groundpath from foot to spear tip is correct, as you noted, and that's the main thing I would tell people to focus on: the purity of that groundpath and the most relaxed yet supported body position throughout the thrust.

In terms of the Yin and Yang qi, let's not get too far off topic. I'm interested to see if Mark has some logical support for what he mentioned about directions of groundpath, whatever that is. Maybe I'll learn something new. If so, I'd be foolish to ignore the advice of someone who is knowledgeable.

On the other hand, that applies to everyone when it comes to an art like Aikido, Taiji, etc. Like Tohei's comment, "Where is his ki?", people who don't have ki in an art that is based on ki sort of stand out and the unspoken question is "what were they thinking by not pursuing all the data in the art they supposedly care so much about?". I.e., any of us who don't constantly challenge and seek new pertinent information are showing the limits of our real interest. So I ask questions of anyone who says they have information. Sometimes they do; sometimes they're just posturing. If they really know something, they can explain it. If they don't, they can't.

If you catch me sometime personally, I'll be glad to demonstrate the Yin and Yang aspects, David.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 09:58 AM   #8
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you catch me sometime personally, I'll be glad to demonstrate the Yin and Yang aspects, David.
I'm looking forward to it, but I'm afraid it won't be in Atlanta this time.

Thanks and sorry.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 11:28 AM   #9
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I read through Tim's spear post and I didn't see where it had a lot to do with I.S. Qi doesn't have to do so much with the individual muscles like that. Jin you can do with a certain amount of muscle, but the purer the intent the better.

The groundpath from foot to spear tip is correct, as you noted, and that's the main thing I would tell people to focus on: the purity of that groundpath and the most relaxed yet supported body position throughout the thrust.

In terms of the Yin and Yang qi, let's not get too far off topic. I'm interested to see if Mark has some logical support for what he mentioned about directions of groundpath, whatever that is. Maybe I'll learn something new. If so, I'd be foolish to ignore the advice of someone who is knowledgeable.

On the other hand, that applies to everyone when it comes to an art like Aikido, Taiji, etc. Like Tohei's comment, "Where is his ki?", people who don't have ki in an art that is based on ki sort of stand out and the unspoken question is "what were they thinking by not pursuing all the data in the art they supposedly care so much about?". I.e., any of us who don't constantly challenge and seek new pertinent information are showing the limits of our real interest. So I ask questions of anyone who says they have information. Sometimes they do; sometimes they're just posturing. If they really know something, they can explain it. If they don't, they can't.

If you catch me sometime personally, I'll be glad to demonstrate the Yin and Yang aspects, David.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
For what it's worth,

I believe Tim's post on the spear was a good example of articulating the 'classical literature' that you always refer to on an anatomical level.

From what I interpret, the spear exercise in the Aunkai curriculum helps, in part, to condition movement from the 'dantien', which refers not to an actual mystical 'sphere' in your stomach, but to a physical 'sensation' that feels like there is a 'sphere' in your stomach. And this is not because I have some kind of fetish for Western styles of nomenclature; considering that I'm a slow learner, referring to physical sensations like the 'dantien' for me is not phenomenologically efficient, especially if I read it online.

Movement in the 'middle' or the 'dantien' will of course involve movement of the muscles around that area and I think Tim has clearly identified those muscles. Not only that, he has shown a way to articulate those muscles using specific body stretching techniques to help the practitioner actually 'feel' the muscles that need to be contracted for movement and thus the condition of the 'dantien'--and he does this as opposed to launching the practitioner into speculation land by describing these physical sensations with classical but nevertheless antiquated terminology.

Unless of course, Tim has pinpointed the wrong muscles or internal conditioning (which is different from but important to the development of internal skill/strength I believe) is really a mystical, magical thing.

In any case
FWIW

Lorel

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 11:45 AM   #10
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Unless of course, Tim has pinpointed the wrong muscles or internal conditioning (which is different from but important to the development of internal skill/strength I believe) is really a mystical, magical thing.
You give two choices, Lorel:

1. Tim has pinpointed the wrong muscles
2. Internal strength is a mystical, magical thing.

The topic of internal strength is larger than just qi and jin, of course, but to keep it succinct let me just say that there is a third option: Tim has missed what the entirety of internal strength actually is. I'm trying to think of something explicative to support that .... ah, OK, how's this comment from Chen Xiaowang:

Quote:
CXW: The corkscrew strength does not initiate from the foot. It initiates from the trunk of the body; it initiates from the waist, from the kidney area. It transfers down toward the foot, and then it rebounds from the foot back up and on through the body. Don't forget, everything initiates from the waist; it then goes down to the foot and bounces back up from the foot. Otherwise, if you are just using the strength of the foot, it will not be as powerful."
The basic thing I'm pointing to is that it is not the muscles (the strength of the foot, in the example), but something else that is the main element to be concerned with.

As I've said a number of times, basic jin is fairly easy to learn, difficult to do "purely"... and yet it's only half of the equation. Yet most people get a little jin here and there, couple it with some normal strength, and ba-da-boom, it's being taught and described as "internal strength". Heck, that's worth a discussion in itself.

Incidentally, I don't want to trivialize the fact that Tim is doing some thinking. That's the right thing to do. I could simply not say anything and let it pass with a smile, but there's a part of me that knows that silence when I know better is sort of a nasty choice. So don't take my comments wrongly. They're meant to be helpful.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 12:50 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Too late to edit my previous post, but let me note that Tim is one of the few people studying internal strength (of various sorts) to lay out a functional discussion of how it's done, the body mechanics, and so on. I applaud that and suggest that if people want to honestly move forward rather than to play games, posting how-to's on at least the basics is the only game in town, as far as the internet is concerned.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:16 PM   #12
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You give two choices, Lorel:

1. Tim has pinpointed the wrong muscles
2. Internal strength is a mystical, magical thing.

The topic of internal strength is larger than just qi and jin, of course, but to keep it succinct let me just say that there is a third option: Tim has missed what the entirety of internal strength actually is. I'm trying to think of something explicative to support that .... ah, OK, how's this comment from Chen Xiaowang:

The basic thing I'm pointing to is that it is not the muscles (the strength of the foot, in the example), but something else that is the main element to be concerned with.

As I've said a number of times, basic jin is fairly easy to learn, difficult to do "purely"... and yet it's only half of the equation. Yet most people get a little jin here and there, couple it with some normal strength, and ba-da-boom, it's being taught and described as "internal strength". Heck, that's worth a discussion in itself.

Incidentally, I don't want to trivialize the fact that Tim is doing some thinking. That's the right thing to do. I could simply not say anything and let it pass with a smile, but there's a part of me that knows that silence when I know better is sort of a nasty choice. So don't take my comments wrongly. They're meant to be helpful.

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike,

I don't understand what you mean by the fact that Tim has 'missed the entirety of internal strength', when his post clearly informs people how to condition the 'dantien'. Of course, conditioning the dantien is not the end-all be-all of bodyskill, but I figured that it is important to develop it to access those qi/jin skills that you are trying to develop.

"The basic thing I'm pointing to is that it is not the muscles (the strength of the foot, in the example), but something else that is the main element to be concerned with."

Never did I get a sense from Tim's article that the power or movement comes from the strength of the foot, Mike. The information I got was that manipulation of the middle--which I said is what the spear exercise helps to develop--involves contracting the psoas muscles, and also the tilting of the pelvis. Now, using these terms may not seem informative because 'psoas' could look like a hieroglyph to a lay person, and 'tilting the pelvis' may sound weird also. But the great thing is that there are particular body stretching techniques from various disciplines (Rolfing, etc.--Tim gave a link on the Massachussetts stretch which basically helps physically identify the psoas--) that are used to identify the psoas and the pelvic tilt in a real physical way. Don't believe me? Search "psoas stretch" or "pelvic tilting" on youtube. Now, that people can be physically cognizant of these things, they are now informed and can be instructed, like in Tim's article, how to do dantien rotations with particular exercises (in my case, spear thrusting and squatting monkey). I think it's silly to think that we can move the middle without engaging some of the muscles in that area.

So I have a few questions for you Mike:

1) If you think Tim's article had nothing to do with 'internal strength', is it on the basis that you think that conditioning the 'dantien' has nothing to do with it? If not, please answer the following questions:

2) Is Tim wrong in identifying those muscles that help with 'dantien rotation' (side to side, forward to back) and 'dantien condtioning'?
3) If so, can you please describe to us--not in metaphorical terms--which muscles are being contracted, what is being pulled, etc. when we're conditioning the 'dantien'?

Look forward to your reply,

Lorel

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 12-29-2010 at 01:19 PM.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:22 PM   #13
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,

I don't understand what you mean by the fact that Tim has 'missed the entirety of internal strength', when his post clearly informs people how to condition the 'dantien'. Of course, conditioning the dantien is not the end-all be-all of bodyskill, but I figured that it is important to develop it to access those qi/jin skills that you are trying to develop.

"The basic thing I'm pointing to is that it is not the muscles (the strength of the foot, in the example), but something else that is the main element to be concerned with."

Never did I get a sense from Tim's article that the power or movement comes from the strength of the foot, Mike. The information I got was that manipulation of the middle--which I said is what the spear exercise helps to develop--involves contracting the psoas muscles, and also the tilting of the pelvis. Now, using these terms may not seem informative because 'psoas' could look like a hieroglyph to a lay person, and 'tilting the pelvis' may sound weird also. But the great thing is that there are particular body stretching techniques from various disciplines (Rolfing, etc.--Tim gave a link on the Massachussetts stretch which basically helps physically identify the psoas--) that are used to identify the psoas and the pelvic tilt in a real physical way. Don't believe me? Search "psoas stretch" or "pelvic tilting" on youtube. Now, that people can be physically cognizant of these things, they are now informed and can be instructed, like in Tim's article, how to do dantien rotations with particular exercises (in my case, spear thrusting and squatting monkey). I think it's silly to think that we can move the middle without engaging some of the muscles in that area.

So I have a few questions for you Mike:

1) If you think Tim's article had nothing to do with 'internal strength', is it on the basis that you think that conditioning the 'dantien' has nothing to do with it? If not, please answer the following questions:

2) Is Tim wrong in identifying those muscles that help with 'dantien rotation' (side to side, forward to back) and 'dantien condtioning'?
3) If so, can you please describe to us--not in metaphorical terms--which muscles are being contracted, what is being pulled, etc. when we're conditioning the 'dantien'?

Look forward to your reply,

Lorel
You're taking the thread off-topic, Lorel. Besides, you're missing the point of what I'm saying.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:31 PM   #14
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You're taking the thread off-topic, Lorel. Besides, you're missing the point of what I'm saying.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Whatever, Mike.

See ya

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:48 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Whatever, Mike.

See ya
You're welcome. I'll put the answer to your question on the QiJin forum.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 02:40 PM   #16
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Hey David,

I suggest you ignore what's being said here and continue with the spear exercise and explore and research and not take people's words for it.

Lorel

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 01:39 AM   #17
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Stand in a puddle of water and stick your finger in an electric outlet.

This will reveal the body's true path to ground.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 11:58 AM   #18
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Hi Mike,
A couple questions:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But the groundpath part is only about the yang qi. What about the yin qi? There's so much more to all of this and most of it was figured out very long ago and codified. But this thing of directional groundpaths, which would be "directional yang qi" is something new to me. Maybe Mark can explain it for us.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
So there is no groundpath usage whatsoever in yin qi/ki development?
Could it be the directional aspects relate to the relative directional traits of "heaven and earth?"
If there is always a bit of yin to yang and vise versa (as I thought I understood the model to show, at any rate), how can we have any "path" that is strictly yin or yang?
My weak guess is that Mark is refering to the sensation of gravity (downward) as the one-directional groundpath (Is that right Mark?).
Thinking of my earlier thoughts about vectors relating to the vertical axis, I can see how any point along the "pathway" wouldn't necessarily pertain to any particular direction, since you have equal and opposite vectors always present, which would seem to make sense (or at least appear to do so to my mind) regarding your remarks about the non-directional quality of groundpath.
I keep struggling with the right wording to describe what I'm trying to convey so I'll leave it as it is and see what I get.
I'd appreciate anything you'd have to throw my way on this!
Take care,
Matt
ps- FWIW, my current mental efforts are to reach up and down (yin and yang qi effort respectively?) at the same time...at some point I begin to feel a kind of balance in which I feel very "floaty," though not in an upward direction...much like a hot air ballon which has attained pressure equalibrium with the air around it, being pushed neither up nor down but resting in between.
Though of course, I'm not even close to knowing anything so...probably just hot air. Still, interesting to contemplate.

Quote:
Stand in a puddle of water and stick your finger in an electric outlet.

This will reveal the body's true path to ground.
My fingers aren't that small And somehow I doubt I would be able to perceive much beyond "bbzzzzzzzt!"

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-30-2010 at 12:11 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 12:15 PM   #19
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Mike,
A couple questions:

So there is no groundpath usage whatsoever in yin qi/ki development?
Could it be the directional aspects relate to the relative directional traits of "heaven and earth?"
If there is always a bit of yin to yang and vise versa (as I thought I understood the model to show, at any rate), how can we have any "path" that is strictly yin or yang?
My weak guess is that Mark is refering to the sensation of gravity (downward) as the one-directional groundpath (Is that right Mark?).
Thinking of my earlier thoughts about vectors relating to the vertical axis, I can see how any point along the "pathway" wouldn't necessarily pertain to any particular direction, since you have equal and opposite vectors always present, which would seem to make sense (or at least appear to do so to my mind) regarding your remarks about the non-directional quality of groundpath.
I keep struggling with the right wording to describe what I'm trying to convey so I'll leave it as it is and see what I get.
I'd appreciate anything you'd have to throw my way on this!
Take care,
Matt
ps- my current mental efforts are to reach up and down (yin and yang qi effort respectively?) at the same time...at some point I feel a kind of balance in which I feel very "floaty," though not in an upward direction...much like a hot air ballon which has attained pressure equalibrium with the air around it, being pushed neither up nor down but resting in between.
Though of course, I'm not even close to knowing anything so...probably just hot air. Still, interesting to contemplate.
Some of those are good thoughts, Matt. Let's hold them and see if Mark will expand on the ideas he was floating out loud in another thread.

This kind of discussion reminds me a bit of the old Neijia List. If someone questioned something you posted you either defended it (if the thought was valid) or you couldn't. If you really know something, you can explain it simply... and most things have simple answers at this level of physics. Occam's Razor usually prevails. Either way, someone gets to learn.

On Neijia, assert-and-run never won and it would be good to get technical discussions in AikiWeb on that level to prevail over the "well here's my opinion" sort of stuff. That way everyone learns (at least academically ).

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 04:34 PM   #20
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

On Neijia, assert-and-run never won and it would be good to get technical discussions in AikiWeb on that level to prevail over the "well here's my opinion" sort of stuff. That way everyone learns (at least academically ).

Mike
Tim Fong used to have a good archive link on his blog, as well as your old Internal Strength articles. I got a lot out of reading all that (a lot of the neijia stuff, but not all).

As for direction of groundpath, now I'm thinking that it's primarily down because it is established by the mind/body's direction to the ground, thus, path to the ground or ground path.

Second, according to my fuzzy understanding, you can compress yourself along that groundpath, like a big rubber shock absorber, and third, expand rather forcefully back into the source of the incoming force, along the same path.

So it seems that the groundpath direction is down but it can be used to direct outgoing force along the line where the body has maximum support...

I asked in the spear thrusting thread whether the push starts in the rear foot or in the pelvis. After reading CXW's comments, I thought a little more. When we practice with the bo, we always have someone pushing the other end and we set up the ground path so that we can relax while holding the other guy immobile, letting him push hard into the earth. Once that is established, we know that the push comes into the hips and goes into the ground foot to the earth. Then the question is, where does the push start? If you start with the idea of having a load against you, you can see that the hip then pushes down into the rear foot, which pushes back up with a corkscrew inward spiral to the hips. So that would be consistent with CXW's push coming from the hip to the foot.

I think all of this is sort of "given" in Tim's spear thrusting thread. (I think.) From my experience with Aunkai, the balance of the incoming push and the push from the hip to the foot, with the foot pushing back upward in a corkscrew is basic. In other words, they set up the groundpath first and work with it all the way through the thrust.

But then just how does the hip effect a push into the rear foot?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 05:09 PM   #21
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
As for direction of groundpath, now I'm thinking that it's primarily down because it is established by the mind/body's direction to the ground, thus, path to the ground or ground path.

Second, according to my fuzzy understanding, you can compress yourself along that groundpath, like a big rubber shock absorber, and third, expand rather forcefully back into the source of the incoming force, along the same path.

So it seems that the groundpath direction is down but it can be used to direct outgoing force along the line where the body has maximum support...

I asked in the spear thrusting thread whether the push starts in the rear foot or in the pelvis. After reading CXW's comments, I thought a little more. When we practice with the bo, we always have someone pushing the other end and we set up the ground path so that we can relax while holding the other guy immobile, letting him push hard into the earth. Once that is established, we know that the push comes into the hips and goes into the ground foot to the earth. Then the question is, where does the push start? If you start with the idea of having a load against you, you can see that the hip then pushes down into the rear foot, which pushes back up with a corkscrew inward spiral to the hips. So that would be consistent with CXW's push coming from the hip to the foot.

I think all of this is sort of "given" in Tim's spear thrusting thread. (I think.) From my experience with Aunkai, the balance of the incoming push and the push from the hip to the foot, with the foot pushing back upward in a corkscrew is basic. In other words, they set up the groundpath first and work with it all the way through the thrust.

But then just how does the hip effect a push into the rear foot?
Well, even though I've exaggerated things in the classical manner, you need to take the below aspect into focus when you're talking about "groundpaths" and direction. Still, the picture should give you an idea why a linear description of groundpath/kokyu/jin can lead you off into a questionable direction. A linear representation of groundpath is actually only an incremental look at the vector-resultants:


Is a groundpath up or down? Suppose, in a static situation, the guy is pushing the elephant: is the push up or down? Look at the picture and imagine that the elephant is resting backward (but everything is static) onto the man's hand: is the push up or down?

BTW... isn't that an interesting pattern to the collision of lines at the guy's middle?

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 05:19 PM   #22
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
As for direction of groundpath, now I'm thinking that it's primarily down because it is established by the mind/body's direction to the ground, thus, path to the ground or ground path.
I meant to say that groundpath is established by the mind/body's directing an incoming force into the ground. It's the "path to the ground" or more specifically, the direct path to the ground.

So maybe this makes more sense:

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Second, according to my fuzzy understanding, you can compress yourself along that groundpath, like a big rubber shock absorber, and third, expand rather forcefully back into the source of the incoming force, along the same path.
Clearer?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
So it seems that the groundpath direction is down but it can be used to direct outgoing force along the line where the body has maximum support...
That should be a reasonable point by now.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
...we can relax while holding the other guy immobile, letting him push hard into the earth. Once that is established, we know that the push comes into the hips and goes into the ground foot to the earth. Then the question is, where does the push start?
Read that like this:

...we can relax while holding the other guy immobile, letting him push hard into the earth. Once that is established, we know that his push comes into our hips and goes into the ground foot to the earth. Then the question is, where does our push start? (i.e., in the hips/center/dantian or in the rear foot?)

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
If you start with the idea of having a load against you, you can see that the hip then pushes down into the rear foot, which pushes back up with a corkscrew inward spiral to the hips. So that would be consistent with CXW's push coming from the hip to the foot.
I mean to say that if you do this thinking only of holding a staff or spear and thrusting the air, it's very different than starting with someone pushing the other end of the stick. So we have to think of already being in a stance with a load against us which we have grounded into the rear foot. If that is established, the foot is already being pushed into the earth by the incoming load and all we have there is "stasis" or balance of forces. So the next move has to be considered "the first move" and CXW tells us that that movement is from the dantian, generating force, first toward the foot...and then the foot sends that power back up to the center to be passed on to the hands. And that's very easy if the small rotation of the spine drives the cross of the arms and the extension of the back leg continues to add to the movement (while still grounding the incoming force, such as it is by that point).

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I think all of this is sort of "given" in Tim's spear thrusting thread. (I think.) From my experience with Aunkai, the balance of the incoming push and the push from the hip to the foot, with the foot pushing back upward in a corkscrew is basic. In other words, they set up the groundpath first and work with it all the way through the thrust.
And I hope that all I have said above supports that (and that it's consistent with what Aunkai intends..

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But then just how does the hip effect a push into the rear foot?
I hope that becomes clearer now and I guess the real question is how the dantian moves to effect the issuance of power.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 05:26 PM   #23
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

BTW, CXW's comment is about something far outside the scope of anything you've heard on this forum or at any workshop you've been to. My point is that the discussion about groundpaths (that was from Mark) or the psoas (or other muscles, because dantien movement is far more complex than that) ... both of those topics can simplify a general discussion, but in terms of training the body and the dantien those perspectives can lead you far off the mark.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 05:29 PM   #24
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, even though I've exaggerated things in the classical manner, you need to take the below aspect into focus when you're talking about "groundpaths" and direction. Still, the picture should give you an idea why a linear description of groundpath/kokyu/jin can lead you off into a questionable direction.
And I think that's something of what Mark was talking about because Dan works with the idea of complementary up-and-down spirals in both arms, both legs and the the body, where intent is not only going both in and out at the same time (infinitely) but is doing so in spirals.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
A linear representation of groundpath is actually only an incremental look at the vector-resultants:
Yes, although we can draw a line from rear foot to point of contact, even through empty space, the path of force has to be through the nine crooked paths, doesn't it?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Is a groundpath up or down? Suppose, in a static situation, the guy is pushing the elephant: is the push up or down? Look at the picture and imagine that the elephant is resting backward (but everything is static) onto the man's hand: is the push up or down?
I think this was what you wanted me to say when we were discussing the unbendable arm a long time ago. It's not just done with the arm, of course, but with an extension of the whole body. So it goes both ways.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
BTW... isn't that an interesting pattern to the collision of lines at the guy's middle?
It's like a reel, isn't it? Haven't you discussed using the center with a kind of reeling motion? And wouldn't that reeling be happening in all directions (side to side as well as up and down)? And doesn't the big question remain "How do you do that?"

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2010, 05:51 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Direction of Groundpath

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And I think that's something of what Mark was talking about because Dan works with the idea of complementary up-and-down spirals in both arms, both legs and the the body, where intent is not only going both in and out at the same time (infinitely) but is doing so in spirals.
Well, now we're going from a look at vector-resultant jin/kokyu forces to something that is spiralling up and down the limbs. If that's true, we should be able to discuss what it is that is spiralling. It can't be intent; that's pretty easy to establish. So what is it that is spiralling? Spiralling from where? All at the same time? Sounds like some sort of mixed up idea of directional-jin/kokyu, but somehow something else is being substituted for the intent-driven jin/kokyu. So what would that be? That would be my original question.... "how does it work?". I.e., WHAT is spiralling?

If it's a true perspective it can be explained physically. However, in terms of everything I can think of in terms of ki, kokyu, hara, and traditional explanations, none of this rings a bell. And believe it or not, the traditional perspective doesn't misconstrue our physics, it just explains it using a different concept. So I understand how ki, kokyu, hara, etc., work in terms of traditional perspective and somehow we have an intermingling of ideas and terms that is confusing.
Quote:
It's like a reel, isn't it? Haven't you discussed using the center with a kind of reeling motion? And wouldn't that reeling be happening in all directions (side to side as well as up and down)? And doesn't the big question remain "How do you do that?"
Old version of Yin-Yang symbol:


New version of Yin-Yang symbol:


M.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Poll: Which movement direction in your body do you think is the most important in aikido techniques? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 04-26-2005 01:57 AM
8 direction cut help grasshopper73 General 11 06-06-2004 11:45 AM
Shomen uchi direction? Thor's Hammer General 4 10-28-2003 07:30 AM
Poll: Which direction of falling do you think is the most dangerous for uke during aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 15 10-02-2003 05:31 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:11 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate