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Old 08-05-2010, 01:12 PM   #51
RED
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I believe you are referring to this article entitled "Aikido and Injuries: A Special Report" on Aikido Journal by Fumiaki Shishida sensei, written in 1989:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=8

-- Jun
bingo, thanks!

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:14 PM   #52
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
O'Sensei killed one student and seriously injured another in the same seminar. All the deaths I know of are from the original honbu dojo. I think at least two or three were from shihonage. The most serious injury I've seen in my organization was caused by hakama entanglement (totally jacked up his leg, torn something or other)...although I am quite cognizant of the high injury level in aikido. Even though 99% of aikido is cooperative these injuries still occur, usually due to a lack of control on the part of nage b/c they halfway learned technique, to include ukemi. See how I brought that back to ukemi? Full circle, baby, oh yea!
A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:29 PM   #53
Michael Hackett
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.

Michael
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:13 PM   #54
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"
Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.

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Old 08-05-2010, 02:17 PM   #55
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.
I think crippled people were a rarity, but a broken finger or nose now and again isn't uncommon...these are not crippling injuries. While technique is nice, this kind of training forges something a bit more practical than a crisp ikkyo (although it can do that as well). But, as you say, people know what they are getting into when they go there...and the Yoshinkai emphasize safety first, I guess its just a matter of perspective as to what that entails. Sometimes safety is confused with comfort....but as I mentioned in another thread, you have to set the atmosphere of your training/dojo. You can have a dojo of 8 hard core talented students that can't really sustain itself, or you can have a successful dojo where you can teach the art to dozens of students of varying skill levels and varying ideas on what they want out of their art....or a balance somewhere between the two (well I guess the second thing I mentioned is more of a balance than an extreme).

Last edited by Adam Huss : 08-05-2010 at 02:20 PM.

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Old 08-05-2010, 02:47 PM   #56
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.
I'm guessing brown belt is some where between 2nd-1st kyu.(we use only white belt until yudansha.)

The shidoin I had talked to also had the same opinion of new black belts.
He feels that people are confident in their ability years before they become competent in their abilities.

MM
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:24 PM   #57
Russ Q
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Interesting thread...the more I read Dan H. the more I agree with him. The below quote is from Sensei Takahashi's reply on the "Why do we turn our heads when pinned" thread...I think it speaks to the paradigm in which we train. IMHO, if someone is slamming you down when you are giving your body to them then something is wrong.

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In Aikido especially, the nage is given huge leeway in finishing the technique, which would be totally unrealistic and unacceptable for the uke to yield to in an actual confrontation, and life or death situation. Thus the agreement that uke allows the nage to perform the waza thoroughly without real resistance, and that the nage accepts the responsibility of keeping the uke safe from any real threat of harm, is the basis for Aikido's kata form of training
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Old 08-05-2010, 04:52 PM   #58
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Something I think this thread speaks to as well is the attitude taken toward theory and practice of Ukemi in the dojo dictates or reflects how it is taught and practiced. The spectrum might be on one end a heavy focus on O'Sensei's philosophy not to harm. The opposite may be very little focus or adhesion to such philosophy. Both ends have very different approaches to Ukemi as well as (related) to the technique.

The core of it all is that Ukemi isn't something that is naturally done and has to be learned, thus a technique in itself. That is something you are always improving on. And honestly, it is some that isn't going to be used outside of the dojo; there is a very low likelihood your are going to be thrown on the street. More than likely taking Ukemi on the street results from a non-martial arts incident. Therefore, I think the attention of Ukemi should be placed under the circumstances, applications and intention toward the safety of the practitioners. Do I need to mention liability insurance. ya see where I am coming from cause all this talk of Ukemi is underlined with that ugly reality. And the art of Ukemi takes a back sit.

Point being if you're not getting injured (after say 1 year of practicing Ukemi) in the dojo or at a seminar, where your pinky is placed and all that is superficial to the core purpose of being protected. That is my opinion based on any liability and stuff. That really is the core of the matter (liability, court, being sued, and stuff) as I see it. Because there is such a wide spectrum of interpretation of O'Sensei's philosophy that relates to Ukemi you really got to look if the Ukemi is protecting people from injury.

Last edited by Buck : 08-05-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:16 PM   #59
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I realize that my view point is limited to just making sure no one gets hurt. And throws out everything else. Where there is no need to focus on the art of Ukemi, and it is treated more as a utility. For example, as long as no one is getting hurt and protecting themselves under the umbrella of Aikido conditions it doesn't matter how ugly the Ukemi goes. And time and experience also is really the best teacher, as long as the attitude is to always improve and never satisfied. My limited view is I guess going back to the basics and insuring Ukemi is seen and practiced as a means of a safety measure and nothing else. I understand the importance of the other focuses of Ukemi but I simply see that as secondary importance. And by no means discounting other practices or philosophies of Ukemi.
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:53 PM   #60
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'm guessing brown belt is some where between 2nd-1st kyu.(we use only white belt until yudansha.)

The shidoin I had talked to also had the same opinion of new black belts.
He feels that people are confident in their ability years before they become competent in their abilities.
Lol, I'll have to steal that quote...so true. Um, for my karate I think brown belt started at third kyu. For our aikido; one style has brown belt at 2nd kyu, the other at 3rd kyu. Interestingly both my karate and aikikai groups add stripes to belts while my Yoshinkan offshoot group starts with stripes on their belts and then takes them off as they progress....sorry, that's a little off topic.

Last edited by Adam Huss : 08-05-2010 at 11:57 PM.

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Old 08-06-2010, 01:22 AM   #61
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
In short it was explained it is the responsibility of both people practicing the technique ...
you have to know how to protect yourself from injury, and that is the purpose of taking falls.
Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:
It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt. This is what makes good ukemi so demanding.

Quote:
I was taught via the philosophy of Aikido that the Shi has the responsibility not to injury the uke.
Said this short this is not our philosphy:
But it is shites job to react and adopt when he realizes that aite can't take the responsibility for himself.

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
I've never heard or read about O'Sensei killing a student during a seminar.
Teachers with strong connection to hombu talk about some incidents sometimes.

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
A shidoin once told me that at a certain level of Aikido "you know just enough to be dangerous"
Most aikido I know - me included - are fare away from being dangerous for someon doing another MA.

We train with judoka, karateka, boxers from time to time. And I find it essenial not to overestimate ones skills.

Carsten

Maybe my story might help others to avoid injury, be thinking aobut different ways etc, in taking Ukemi to avoid injury.[/quote]
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Old 08-06-2010, 07:27 AM   #62
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:
Good points.
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:06 AM   #63
Basia Halliop
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Well yes, this is the way we also understand it in the dojo I know:
It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt. This is what makes good ukemi so demanding.
For the most part, I basically agree with that... but since all grades practice together and there are no weight categories, I think it does sometimes need some common sense adjustment on the part of nage - you don't intentionally give someone way more than you have reason to believe they can likely handle, particularly someone less experienced than you.

E.g., I think your statement applies differently if nage is a shodan and uke is a fifth kyu, versus two dan ranked students together.
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:57 AM   #64
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

@Carsten: "It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt."

Aikido - even at the jiyuwaza level - is about cooperative training. It is not sparring - where both parties attempt to give and take to the best of their ability while freely defending themselves.

Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.

Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-06-2010 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:09 AM   #65
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.
But shi'te can make a mistake. Uke has to be always ready to avoid the damage, even if is unintentional.

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Old 08-06-2010, 09:38 AM   #66
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I think you are looking at an extreme and taking Rab somewhat out of context. His first statement was the most poignant to this discourse...that uke and shi'te work cooperatively. Each share equal responsibility in what is happening...though uke is placing his trust a bit more to nage as he is the 'doer' of the technique. I think Rab's point was that the extreme view of safety on the part of the uke is illogical...that its a shared experience.

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Old 08-06-2010, 11:06 AM   #67
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But shi'te can make a mistake. Uke has to be always ready to avoid the damage, even if is unintentional.
I believe that Aikido training is a lot like kata. It is about repetitive cooperative training for the benefits of both parties improving themselves.
With that said, ukemi skills should never be under estimated. So many people focus so much on nage that they never want to learn ukemi. There should be an ukemi technique up your sleeves for anything nage throw at you, even his mistakes.

Now, with that said lol, you should be practicing to your uke's level.

MM
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:23 AM   #68
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Brown belt...yep. Same thing in karate. Know just enough skill to have some effect but not fully controlled, and are usually young and enthusiastic enough to apply that as vigorously as possible. I hate sparring brown belts, lol.
In my old dojo, that happened at the green belt level (which was the third belt). Some of our brown belts did get big ego's when it came to teaching, but it was more of a power trip then them thinking their technique was all the sudden super duper.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
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Old 08-06-2010, 01:31 PM   #69
Janet Rosen
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.
I believe in and do cooperative training. But I do NOT, even with newbies, purposedly deliver overextended attacks.

I am always giving the best attack I can; with newbies I may deliver it in slo-mo and make sure if he cannot make a connection to my center, then I will via my ukemi try to make a connection to his center so we can work together on the technique.

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Old 08-06-2010, 07:13 PM   #70
JO
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
@Carsten: "It is ukes responsibility not to get hurt."

Aikido - even at the jiyuwaza level - is about cooperative training. It is not sparring - where both parties attempt to give and take to the best of their ability while freely defending themselves.

Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered. These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.

Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.

To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.
I kind of feel sorry for you that you have never gone beyond that level of training. Even in low level training, the only time I place myself in a dangerous position is when showing a beginner where he supposed to try to get me, the rest of the time they have to get me there themselves. How much resistance or countering I offer will then have to do with how much I think my partner can handle, as well as the type of training (exercises, basic forms, set attack jiyu waza, free attack jiyu waza, etc).

And you really need to add free attack jiyu waza to your repertoire, then move to free attack and free to counter.

Back to shiho nage. Though I have not seen his DVD, the description Ellis gave on how to protect youself seem good to me . I once got pretty badly hurt because I was not fast enough as uke and nage went one way with my arm while my body stayed planted. Both me and nage share responsibility for that one, me for not being prepared, quick enough or in a position to protect my arm, and nage for not being carefull enough and throwing me without first getting my balance (we were practicing throws, not arm tearing).

Yes, aikido is cooperative. But it needs to be much more intense and martial than what you are describing if you're going to get everything you can out of it, IMHO.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:38 AM   #71
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Hi
Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Aikido ... is about cooperative training. It is not sparring ...
Hm, what do you mean by "cooperative"? Depending on the skill-level of tori and uke, aikido is about not being thrown, about hindering, resisting and countering, about making it difficult for shite, to do the technique.

This is not sparring, and this is still kata. But even when doing kata from a certain level on it is possible that it comes to uke throwing nage and not the other way round.

We still call this "cooperative". Do you?

Quote:
Shi'te signals what attack he wants, where he wants it, and uke delivers it as ordered.
No. (This sounds a little "obedient"?)
The teacher signals to shite and uke the settings of their practice. He tells both of them what to do.
And within this setting uke delivers his attack as best, as he can. (Depending on the level of shite.)

Quote:
These are not real attacks - they are overextended punches or dagger thrusts, ritualized tegetana strikes, scripted grab attempts, etc.
Well, "as best as he can" means: Uke honestly tries to hit shite. Or to grab him in a way so he can't move anymore.
Sure these are no real attacks, but you can do them in a severe, grave way, staying centered, using kime. The way I practice we understand the attacks as links between kata and "real" attacks. They have to provide elements of both "regions".
I don't know how practice and understand the attacks. We train wiht karateka, judoka and practioners of other MA to improve our skills.
But I know dojo, where no attack that hits shite would cause a bruis or hurt.

Quote:
Uke is giving his body to shi'te for shi'te's benefit - whether in training or performance. In many situations, uke willfully places himself in a situations where shi'te could easily and seriously injure uke if he was so inclined. Inherent in that is a sacred trust that shi'te will safeguard his partner.
No.
I'm not giving my body for someones benefit. And sure I never would place myself in a situation where nage can hurt me.
Good ukemi as I or we understand it, on the contrary means, to avoid such situations! We teach the uke from the beginning not to place themselves in such situations.
Shite has to work his technique to get uke there. Uke will try to prevent himself from nage to be able to hurt him.

Quote:
To place the ultimate responsibility for safety on uke within this paradigm is completely illogical.
I didn't use the word or thaught "ultimate". But I said that it is But it is shites responsibility to react and adopt when he realizes that uke can't take the responsibility for himself. No more, no less.

Maybe we have a different understanding? We try to learn to controll uke against his will.

Besides all that:
I think whether you practice the way we do or the way you do: There can allways happen mistakes, misunderstandings ... so huke should allways to be able to take care of himself?

Carsten
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:47 AM   #72
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
My only knowledge of the senshusei program comes from "Angry White Pajamas", a book I enjoyed, but is apparently disparaged by Yoshinkan folks. My understanding is that a student can enter the program without having any background in the arts and that the course is (by my definition) brutal. I am neither justifying or defending it. It seems that they take pride in their injuries in that course and that it is considerably different in flavor than regular Yoshinkan classes. After reading the book, I became convinced that I didn't want to train in that program (not that it was actually a possibility) and was very happy where I am. Maybe my limited perception is all wrong, but I would think that crippled Tokyo Riot Police officers wouldn't be all that handy to have around.
I know 2 people who are doing this currently and have met several graduates of this. I can confirm that they can do some big waza and take some wild breakfalls. But I don´t get the feeling from any of them that they actually know Aikido or what I consider as such.
Just my 2 yen worth.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:27 PM   #73
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Willi Brix wrote: View Post
I know 2 people who are doing this currently and have met several graduates of this. I can confirm that they can do some big waza and take some wild breakfalls. But I don´t get the feeling from any of them that they actually know Aikido or what I consider as such.
Just my 2 yen worth.
Care to elaborate what you consider to be Aikido and what you mean by "knowing it?".
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Old 08-30-2010, 12:53 AM   #74
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Care to elaborate what you consider to be Aikido and what you mean by "knowing it?".
LOL, no. Not getting into a p*ssing contest. I am too Aikido for that :-)
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:26 AM   #75
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

So...you view Aikido as throwing a verbal brick and then walking away? I don't understand.

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