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Old 05-09-2010, 10:36 AM   #76
niall
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Thanks David, that's interesting. I haven't trained in Daito Ryu and I had never heard aiki used like that and noone I asked had either.

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Old 05-09-2010, 10:40 AM   #77
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I understand solo/breath training is vital, but I don't see how Alan's comments contradict what I said. I'm not knocking training that makes one BETTER. I'm questioning training that takes one away from learning within the perameters of one's art, especially at the beginning levels.
That's the problem, Oisin: the parameters of one's art.

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
It's a fine line between innovation and conservation for sure.
That's the thing: modern aikido is the innovation. IS is the root. It's what Morihei had that Kisshomaru didn't. It's what daito ryu has (in some places) and aikido doesn't (usually).

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
My main point is that, before people dismiss models of practice that seem antiquated/inefficient, we should be aware that these practices may hold vital teachings that only reveal themselves over time,
Yeah. The big point on the IS side is not to reject the antiquated: that's where the real stuff is. The modern practices have abandoned that for a group kind of practice that omits the kind of power Ueshiba (Morihei) and Takeda Sokaku both had in spades.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 05-09-2010, 10:47 AM   #78
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Thanks David, that's interesting. I haven't trained in Daito Ryu and I had never heard aiki used like that and noone I asked had either.
Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters (Aikido Journal publication) is a fantastically interesting book that looks back to before aikido existed. It gets to the roots of what Ueshiba was doing and shows how other men developed great power from those roots.

And I think it's especially important to recognize that the Tohei/Kisshomaru (especially Kisshomaru) aikido went off in a very different direction, essentially snipping off the roots entirely. Stan Pranin once showed me a photograph of Morihei Ueshiba seated in front of a scroll that read "Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu" along with an aikikai publication with the very same photograph that read "Aikijujutsu". Someone had very skillfully deleted the words "daito ryu" from the scroll.

So did modern aikido delete anything else from the art?

Research indicates that it did.

And while we're on the topic of books, you should really look at "Hidden in Plain Sight" to see how deeply IS practices are really rooted in TMA. It's the modern form of "TMA" that's really not so traditional at all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:09 AM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.

Maybe it's incorrect in the usual aikido way of explaining aiki, but aikido comes from daito ryu and here is a little of how it was explained there--not as a dynamic of moving around an attacker's movement, but of a force emanating from the aiki man:

From Stan Pranin's "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" (p. 95)

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
During practice (Kodo) Horikawa would apply aiki and keep it applied for minutes on end while he was speaking, so it was pretty rough on his partner!

MORISHITA:
Yes, because you weren't able to move at all. And gradually, it would become difficult to breathe.""

They're not talking about "applying aiki" by doing tenkan or getting the opponent in an armlock. This is where the opponent grabs or just touches Horikawa and he "emits" aiki force into their bodies as you see on page 97 of the same book. Also, same page of the same book:

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
He even had aiki in the soles of his feet.""

He had aiki.

And on p. 96:

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
He would send aiki through his fingers...""

So in daito ryu, aiki is something you "have".

It was in aikido that it became something you "do".

David
So is Mrs. Horikawa the defining authority on the correct usage of the term "aiki"? It simply doesn't make a lot of sense, given the antecedents of the term for a couple of thousand years. Maybe it's a vernacular within Daito Ryu (who knows?), but technically the forces are aspects of ki, not of "aiki". Heck, I can even see it as an idiomatic use and I know what someone is trying to say... but technically "aiki" is something that you do with ki, it's not force by itself. And as grandiose as it sounds, "aiki", it's still going to use the same basic forces that are a kokyu power. Any amount of money you want to bet.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:03 PM   #80
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So is Mrs. Horikawa the defining authority on the correct usage of the term "aiki"?
Well, first, she's talking from many decades of experience with Horikawa and his students. Second, there were at least two of Horikawa's students involved in the conversation and they said similar things. What about the comment that he would apply aiki and "hold" it on them for some lengthy time?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It simply doesn't make a lot of sense, given the antecedents of the term for a couple of thousand years.
Of course, in the earliest usage, it means to be in a sword situation in which neither person can get an advantage.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Maybe it's a vernacular within Daito Ryu (who knows?), but technically the forces are aspects of ki, not of "aiki".
I see aiki as an aspect of ki. And we (and the Chinese and Japanese) say we "have" ki...so...I don't see it as out of place and of course, all modern uses of "aiki" are from Sokaku Takeda anyway. Whatever it meant 1000 years ago, within daito ryu, it means what Sokaku and his top people say, I would think.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Heck, I can even see it as an idiomatic use and I know what someone is trying to say... but technically "aiki" is something that you do with ki, it's not force by itself.
I think it means to have a body that "naturally" uses its ki in an aiki fashion when touched. Which won't happen if you don't have that kind of body...so you have to "have" it to use it.

Anyway, my point is that it's wrong to say that the Japanese don't refer to "having" aiki because some of them certainly do.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And as grandiose as it sounds, "aiki", it's still going to use the same basic forces that are a kokyu power. Any amount of money you want to bet.
Not arguing that, but then we could say you "have" kokyu or you don't....meaning that you have developed it to the point where it is part of your being instead of something you try to do without having developed it far enough to say you "have" it.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 05-09-2010, 01:38 PM   #81
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
What about the comment that he would apply aiki and "hold" it on them for some lengthy time?
I'm not sure what the question is. If I, say, hold someone with "aiki", I'm essentially using my 'jin' (I prefer that over kokyu because kokyu implies a bit more than just jin and it's unnecessary for this conversation) in accord with Uke's forces to effect the "aiki". The point though is that the "aiki" application is still based on the essential intent-directed jin/kokyu force. I.e, the basis of "aiki" is still going to be the ki forces or the kokyu forces (same thing for all practical purposes). "There are many jins but there is only one jin".

Incidentally, Shioda was kind of an "aiki" (in the technical sense of "ai ki") fanatic and there's one video of his that has him doing about every "aiki" trick you can think of, while teaching a class. I'm reluctant to go literally by everything in his books since his books tend to represent compilations of his views as remembered by various students... and then those books are translated into English by people who may or may not have any real kokyu/ki skills.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:09 PM   #82
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If I, say, hold someone with "aiki", I'm essentially using my 'jin' (I prefer that over kokyu because kokyu implies a bit more than just jin and it's unnecessary for this conversation) in accord with Uke's forces to effect the "aiki". The point though is that the "aiki" application is still based on the essential intent-directed jin/kokyu force. I.e, the basis of "aiki" is still going to be the ki forces or the kokyu forces (same thing for all practical purposes). "There are many jins but there is only one jin".
No argument there, but don't the Chinese say that someone "has" jin or doesn't "have" it? Since I've read that jin = li (muscular force) + qi (ki), it seems to me that it's something one has to create within oneself. Those who haven't done that work (or who don't even know of it) don't "have" jin, wouldn't you say? And since you pretty much equate jin with aiki, it seems reasonable to say someone "has" or "does not have" aiki.

What I'd really like is your comments on the tai chi ruler thread.

Thanks.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 05-09-2010, 02:56 PM   #83
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
No argument there, but don't the Chinese say that someone "has" jin or doesn't "have" it? Since I've read that jin = li (muscular force) + qi (ki), it seems to me that it's something one has to create within oneself. Those who haven't done that work (or who don't even know of it) don't "have" jin, wouldn't you say? And since you pretty much equate jin with aiki, it seems reasonable to say someone "has" or "does not have" aiki.
Well, I understand what you're saying and I've understood it from the start. But you can't have 'aiki' without the basic jin force manifested via intention. Jin is a "specialized strength skill", not really li + qi in every case. There are a number of ways to manifest jin and some of them are pretty interesting; "aiki" is just one of those subsets.
Quote:
What I'd really like is your comments on the tai chi ruler thread.

Thanks.
It's just an exercise, mainly for jin/qi. There are many exercises that will do the same thing. If someone has "done Tai Chi Chih for years" and done it correctly, you should be able to feel their jin/qi immediately. I.e., any exercise done correctly, particularly 'internal' exercises, should have demonstrable results. For instance, once I pushed hands with a guy in a park in London and I knew immediately that he had no jin/qi skills because they were absent. Later he asked me to watch his form and to offer some corrections for the postures. I declined. It was obvious that he'd been doing his forms wrong for years or I would have felt his jin/qi skills if he'd been doing them correctly, right? So everything he was practicing was simply wrong, but I didn't want to say such a thing to him since I'd only just met him.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-09-2010, 03:12 PM   #84
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Incidentally, Shioda was kind of an "aiki" (in the technical sense of "ai ki") fanatic and there's one video of his that has him doing about every "aiki" trick you can think of, while teaching a class.
Mike,

By any chance do you remember what video this was? I'd like to check it out.

...rab
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Old 05-09-2010, 03:23 PM   #85
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Mike,

By any chance do you remember what video this was? I'd like to check it out.

...rab
It's this one, Rabih:

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Old 05-09-2010, 04:08 PM   #86
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I understand what you're saying and I've understood it from the start. But you can't have 'aiki' without the basic jin force manifested via intention. Jin is a "specialized strength skill", not really li + qi in every case. There are a number of ways to manifest jin and some of them are pretty interesting; "aiki" is just one of those subsets.
Sounds like Horikawa had it and now that I've seen lots of clips of people hanging helpless off Gozo Shioda's obi, I can see that what he's doing is not normally known in aikido circles. Mochizuki Sensei didn't do that kind of thing, but he did some eerie things while I was around and Kenmotsu Sensei, his student, sometimes held my wrists with puzzling strength that I couldn't affect at all. Also, I once saw Tezuka Sensei shear a makiwara post off at the floor with a low front kick...But I always thought those strengths were incidental or something, just by-products of the regular training and that I would develop that kind of thing if I just kept training. For instance, a 5th dan was riding a scooter and a car hit him head-on and he flipped over the top of the car and landed on his feet behind it. He didn't try to do that. It just happened by reflex and he credited it to normal training. But I know now that Kenmotsu, at least, was holding "with jin" as you describe it. I know now that IS is a separate or inner thing apart from the outer techniques and that you can develop it especially.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
(Tai chi ruler is...) just an exercise, mainly for jin/qi. There are many exercises that will do the same thing. If someone has "done Tai Chi Chih for years" and done it correctly, you should be able to feel their jin/qi immediately. I.e., any exercise done correctly, particularly 'internal' exercises, should have demonstrable results. For instance, once I pushed hands with a guy in a park in London and I knew immediately that he had no jin/qi skills because they were absent. Later he asked me to watch his form and to offer some corrections for the postures. I declined. It was obvious that he'd been doing his forms wrong for years or I would have felt his jin/qi skills if he'd been doing them correctly, right? So everything he was practicing was simply wrong, but I didn't want to say such a thing to him since I'd only just met him.
And I have long felt that way about most aikido people I've met. The clubs tend to be more like standing discussion groups, the techniques being only symbolically "martial" and the practice pretty much lacking any "life"--just forms of techniques repeated endlessly...and the insipid smile that this engenders is...unpleasant to me.

But I see now that it can go a lot deeper than just having martial technique and resistance in training (tori never resisting uke in any way, but uke resisting tori at any point where he can feel something to resist). What Shioda shows repeatedly is that there is an inner aiki that needs no particular technique at all to completely overcome the opponent at a touch.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 05-09-2010, 08:46 PM   #87
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's this one, Rabih:
Thanks Mike - just ordered it from budovideos...

...rab
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:09 AM   #88
AllanF
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Allen
I have to get used to seeing you here now eh?
I don't think many in the JMA see that connection and how it adds, not detracts. Also the ability to discern; good or bad, correct or incorrect, what is more useful and martial and what is not, is always a concern-you could spend years chasing a dead end.

Ah yes, I forgot about him and Richard Kim as well.
What did Mas say in his book about his Daito ryu teacher Something like "To my most valued teacher...."

Cheers
Dan
what is it they say about a bad penny or a bad smell?
Actually i have been lurking here for a while but i rarely post here as my knowledge of JMA is rudimentary. I mostly read some of the interesting discussions here, it is all internal training to my mind (one way or another).
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:16 AM   #89
AllanF
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No argument there, but don't the Chinese say that someone "has" jin or doesn't "have" it? Since I've read that jin = li (muscular force) + qi (ki), it seems to me that it's something one has to create within oneself. Those who haven't done that work (or who don't even know of it) don't "have" jin, wouldn't you say? And since you pretty much equate jin with aiki, it seems reasonable to say someone "has" or "does not have" aiki.

What I'd really like is your comments on the tai chi ruler thread.

Thanks.

David
Hi David

I would just add that there is wai (external) jin and nei (internal) jin. they are not the same externally i would agree with what you have said "jin = li (muscular force) + qi (ki)" internally muscular force should not be used. li (muscular force) can be broken (like a stiff piece of wood) true jin is unbreakable (like a fast flowing river).

Allan
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:59 AM   #90
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
Hi David

I would just add that there is wai (external) jin and nei (internal) jin. they are not the same externally i would agree with what you have said "jin = li (muscular force) + qi (ki)" internally muscular force should not be used. li (muscular force) can be broken (like a stiff piece of wood) true jin is unbreakable (like a fast flowing river).

Allan
That's in line with some of what I've felt from some high-level people. I know the few times I've been able to do anything, I didn't feel like I was doing anything at all. But the li + qi is the only definition I'd read.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 05-12-2010, 10:37 AM   #91
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
[i]
I'm not speaking on behalf of people I don't know. I'm basing my opinons on my own experience. There are approaches/techinques and training methods that, had I abandoned them in exchange for short term more practical/immediate gains, I wouldn't have begun to understand their depth. Please note. I am not dismissing solo training whatsoever, but there are levels of knowledge involved in other components of the arts, such as Kata, rei, ukemi training in Daito Ryu/Aikido etc that are vital to these arts transmissions. From what I read of your comments here you downplay all these other elements.
I feel like I am repeating myself and you're not hearing me. I have great respect for the traditonal arts, and strongly insist that those training with me remain in them. Most don't need any of my advice, they would never consider leaving or dropping their training. This is why I consider the concerns and fears of the "Traditional art defender's club" a figment of their own imaginations not based on any reality I know.
I would call your view of my opinions a massive misunderstanding. It is more accurate for you to say that I simply do not discuss them, so you do not know what my opinions really are. Lack of discussion is not downplaying anything.
Case in point: Do you know my opinions on classical traditions, like Koryu, they might surprise you? On weapons maai, and empty hand, as a study and the benefits one can bring to the other? On Judo/ Jujutsu with all that entials? On the areas where classical kata seemlessly join with freestyle and where they don't? And not least, how an understanding of traditional weapons work (and only traditional work) could have led to Takeda's understanding of aiki? What and how that could be so? No. I don't suspect you do. I share those observations and opinions with highly qualified company on a regular basis.
All due respect, maybe it's a mistake to sum up the entirety of my experiences and opinions based on what you have read of my views on one topic- IP/aiki.

Quote:
On the Takumakia adopting solo work:
With respect, I think you're simplifying things. There are a number of Takumakai people with very high level aiki who to the best of my knowledge didn't get it from Tokimune.
I suspected you would consider the teachers in DR to have "high level aiki." With respect, I would advise you to consider that there are men capable of stopping any one of them in their tracks and reversing it on them....using aiki at a level they have never considered and do not know.

Quote:
Equally, at least one of Tokimune's shihan practiced and taught solo training.
I felt one of his highest ranked people. It is my opinion that he was stiff as a board, as were his two students. His power is not of the type being discussed here with IP/aiki. He showed solo training, and neither the exercises or his explanations of them displayed a level of understanding of that topic. He is a jujutsu guy

Quote:
That's great, and I don't doubt that you're teaching something very valuable. I'm simply doubting that it's the whole story when it comes to traditional arts. Of course, I may be wrong...
There is really no point in arguing the topic until you get a handle on it. The previous discussions with those who consider themselves "traditional training defenders" do not end well and typically turn adversarial. So why make enemies?
In counterpoint, I am no longer surprised to find out that once we meet, encounters with both fellow Koryu adepts, Daito ryu teachers and students and other traditional artists, as well as the meetings with MMA people not only turn out well, we are in fact of like mind and become friends.
For that reason, I reserve more of myself for those encounters, rather then these narrow topic discussions.

Quote:
I understand solo/breath training is vital, but I don't see how Alan's comments contradict what I said. I'm not knocking training that makes one BETTER. I'm questioning training that takes one away from learning within the perameters of one's art, especially at the beginning levels.
It's a fine line between innovation and conservation for sure.
The discussion or topic is far more in depth than simple solo training. My point is that you would need to know the topic first, and were you- to know it- there would no longer be a debate about it's relevancy in tradtional training, or this notion you have that it would take away from traditional training. That is simply not the case here.
You might want to consider that your opinion is not shared by any one man I personally know or know of. And to my knowledge they are more advanced in the tradtional arts than yourself. You don't have to take that into consideration, as you don't know the players I am referring to, but were I a budo guy who was unfamilair-I would sure be looking at the this influx of very old information and the impact it is having on traditional budo teachers with some serious interest. But that's just me and how I look at budo.

Quote:
My main point is that, before people dismiss models of practice that seem antiquated/inefficient, we should be aware that these practices may hold vital teachings that only reveal themselves over time,
For a discussion point I would offer that it works both ways, doesn't it? The difference may be what I outlined above in the opinions of some master class teachers and other mid-level teachers and students alike in the traditonal arts who are now embracing this training. They both know and understand tradtional training and simply do not see issues that you see. I certanly don't.

Quote:
"Last and to end it on topic
Shioda rose to fame doing what? Stock in trade Kodokai aiki displays. After he did what? Went to train in Daito ryu to learn aiki."


I know
I understand where you are training.

Quote:
I'm looking forward to seeing the fruits of such work on a wider scale.
It's all ready happening. I am hearing very good things from different groups. I think some of this training is better than others for fitting into the traditional Japanese arts and still having universal applicability in MMA as well. Some try to argue it's all the same, we'll just have to see who trains what and where it goes. I am looking forward to it as well.
Quote:
If people know what they're doing, good luck to them.
And good luck to you as well. I hope this clarifies things a bit better.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-12-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:22 AM   #92
bernardkwan
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Hi Mike and Dan

I just received the Shioda DVD today (ordered from Amazon Japan) and I noticed that Shioda does something similar to fajing when using Aiki (i.e. a short sharp issuing movement). However the odd thing is that he quite often ends up on his tip toes when he finishes his breaking the uke's balance or throwing him. Sometimes he ends up in a jump in Randori and is kind of hopping around the room.

Is this just because he is short or because of momentum? Or is there something else happening? In push hands I have been taught to anchor the back foot when doing fajing, to use the ground and not overcommit by leaning too far forward, thus my feet end up firmly on the floor. This seems to be a very unstable way to do it.

I have to caveat I am still very much a beginner at this and although I can uproot a lot of my peers who are rooted when my hands are on their chest and pin them against the wall, I can't do standing aikiage well (opponent holding both hands) nor break them in other directions down, sideways or otherwise with any degree of consitency.

Appreciate any insight you guys may have. Many thanks.

Last edited by bernardkwan : 05-13-2010 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:08 AM   #93
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
I noticed that Shioda does something similar to fajing when using Aiki (i.e. a short sharp issuing movement). However the odd thing is that he quite often ends up on his tip toes when he finishes his breaking the uke's balance or throwing him.
from a Yoshinkan website (http://www.yoshinkan-aikido.com/soke.htm):

"Chu Shin Ryoku", the 'centre power', refers to the strength required to maintain your body's centre line straight. If you don't develop this you cannot achieve "Shu Chu Ryoku", Concentrated Power or "Kokyu Ryoku", Breath Power.

If you don't develop 'centre power' you are just going through the motions of Aikido techniques without achieving true power. If you want strong 'centre power' you have to be able to develop correct "Kamae", Posture. You can feel your 'centre power' when you practice correct Kamae. So, at the same time as you practice Kamae, you learn how to strengthen your 'centre power'.

It is not easy to develop strong 'centre power'; it depends on how much you try. The key lies in the big toe of the back foot. The power comes up from the big toe of the back foot and is transmitted into the hips and the lower back. You have to develop strong big toes through practicing "suwari waza", kneeling techniques. You have to develop strong hips through practicing "Kihon Dosa", the basic movements. The techniques of Yoshinkan Aikido are those achieved by training yourself and making yourself correct.


[bold added for emphasis]
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:33 PM   #94
Eric Joyce
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
from a Yoshinkan website (http://www.yoshinkan-aikido.com/soke.htm):

"Chu Shin Ryoku", the 'centre power', refers to the strength required to maintain your body's centre line straight. If you don't develop this you cannot achieve "Shu Chu Ryoku", Concentrated Power or "Kokyu Ryoku", Breath Power.

If you don't develop 'centre power' you are just going through the motions of Aikido techniques without achieving true power. If you want strong 'centre power' you have to be able to develop correct "Kamae", Posture. You can feel your 'centre power' when you practice correct Kamae. So, at the same time as you practice Kamae, you learn how to strengthen your 'centre power'.

It is not easy to develop strong 'centre power'; it depends on how much you try. The key lies in the big toe of the back foot. The power comes up from the big toe of the back foot and is transmitted into the hips and the lower back. You have to develop strong big toes through practicing "suwari waza", kneeling techniques. You have to develop strong hips through practicing "Kihon Dosa", the basic movements. The techniques of Yoshinkan Aikido are those achieved by training yourself and making yourself correct.


[bold added for emphasis]
Maybe I am being rather naive, but Shioda really does break it down in somewhat easy to understand terms.

When talking about center power, is this the same thing as developing haragei? Just need clarification.

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:02 PM   #95
David Orange
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
When talking about center power, is this the same thing as developing haragei? Just need clarification.
No. Haragei is a way of silent communication. It's not related to martial arts. It's more, really, a sort of "good old boys'" nod and wink kind of thing: when people are from the same background and have very closely related interests (particularly political interests), they don't need to say much. Or else they can say one thing, but the people who count will understand that they really think the opposite.

David

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Old 05-13-2010, 04:06 PM   #96
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No. Haragei is a way of silent communication. It's not related to martial arts. It's more, really, a sort of "good old boys'" nod and wink kind of thing: when people are from the same background and have very closely related interests (particularly political interests), they don't need to say much. Or else they can say one thing, but the people who count will understand that they really think the opposite.

David
Interesting. There seems to be some of that on this forum.
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:11 PM   #97
Eric Joyce
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No. Haragei is a way of silent communication. It's not related to martial arts. It's more, really, a sort of "good old boys'" nod and wink kind of thing: when people are from the same background and have very closely related interests (particularly political interests), they don't need to say much. Or else they can say one thing, but the people who count will understand that they really think the opposite.

David
Haragei (Japanese: 腹芸, literally: belly art, or belly performance) is a Japanese word referring to the art of exuding one's personal energy, ki (Chinese qi) primarily from the hara, at base of the abdomen, three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel.

I don't understand your terminology, unless you were trying to be silly. I never heard of haragei defined as you put it.

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:12 PM   #98
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
I don't understand your terminology, unless you were trying to be silly.
He's not.

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Old 05-13-2010, 09:20 PM   #99
bernardkwan
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Thomas

Thanks for the quote - it's very insightful - I had read about the emphasis on the big toe in Yoshinkan (but I had mistakenly taken it for the big toe in the front foot for stability.) I will have to experiment a little with this.

Bernard
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:30 PM   #100
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
Thomas

Thanks for the quote - it's very insightful - I had read about the emphasis on the big toe in Yoshinkan (but I had mistakenly taken it for the big toe in the front foot for stability.) I will have to experiment a little with this.
Bernard, this is a complex issue. Let me offer some advice that the big-toe thing is somewhat valid, but it's hard to fully understand until you get there. I.e., my best well-meant suggestion is to just drop it and do more basic things.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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