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Old 05-08-2010, 03:15 PM   #51
Eric Joyce
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Shioda was pretty limited to that "one line" idea that (IME) vexes the majority of JMA- but he had "aiki" to a degree. I would never chose to move like him or (its by far, less efficient, and incomplete) but with other training in place...you still get aiki.
Dan,

Maybe I am misreading your statement here, but in many of your posts on aiki, you have stated that Shioda had aiki. Now, you are saying he had aiki to a degree. How can you say what he had/didn't have when you haven't touched hands with the man? Not trying to be a wise ass, just looking for consistancy. This question is not meant to be hostile, just trying to learn about this stuff by research, examples and of course my own practice with others.

Last edited by Eric Joyce : 05-08-2010 at 03:18 PM. Reason: added txt

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:35 PM   #52
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Hey David,

Who has got it of Ueshibs's students?

Got my fire suit and popcorn..

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:50 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Isn't this getting into sorta "well, as I heard it..." stuff? I know Yamada went out in NYC and tried on some tough guys and has some scars to show for it. Shioda supposedly took on (with another guy) a bunch of Yakuza. Who, doing the sceptical stuff, has got better credentials on (a.) what they've personally done other than with stooges and (b.) has better hands-on information about what Ueshiba's students ever did?

In my time in martial-arts, I've seen few really great fighters attempt to establish their own reputations by tearing others' down. Usually the people who do that sort of stuff are fairly easily marked for what they are. I don't mind good anecdotes in which something useful can be learned (don't get me wrong), but the mark of the lower-level martial-arts is this constant sort of put-down of other people. I.e., let's move on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:32 PM   #54
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Dan,

Maybe I am misreading your statement here, but in many of your posts on aiki, you have stated that Shioda had aiki. Now, you are saying he had aiki to a degree. How can you say what he had/didn't have when you haven't touched hands with the man? Not trying to be a wise ass, just looking for consistancy. This question is not meant to be hostile, just trying to learn about this stuff by research, examples and of course my own practice with others.
Eric
There is no hostility needed-we can agee or disagree on a body of work without emotion. I'm not goingg to get upset if you disagree with me over a hobby.
I look at all of this like a better way to work. If someone shows up on a job site with a better tool and method to cut wood-the carpenters there would not have an ego or vested interest in their previous method holding them back from working more efficiently and making a better living! I have seen it happen where entire crews change on the spot and/or buy knew equipment.

Budo should be the same way. Movement is movement. There are things you can see in interaction and movement. Shioda had many positive attributes in movement. He was clearly not troubled by many of the issues that plague many in the aiki arts when he was stressed with weight or pulled. All-in-all I think his skills were obvious and set hm apart from others of Ueshiba's students. That he chose the one-line model (many Japanese did) when it was clear he didn't have to was a choice he made. It can be powerful even for those moving externally -as long as they maintain that line- or they can get caught and be off-lined rather easily. For that reason timing and footwork has to take over to avoid the structural openings or weaknesses that type of movement can cause.

Shioda is an interesting study in that he trained in Aikido and Daito ryu. He clearly has aiki and he combines movement prevalent in some schools of Daito ryu yet retains movement seen in Aikido. Interestingly enough Hisa (who trained in both arts) did not retain much of the Aikido model but opted for more of the Daito ryu model. When you look at schools of Daito ryu you will see the same thing with some schools still retaining that one-line model and others moving from center and generating power quite differently.

Koryu is the same way. There are certain arts that move with large weapons and have handled that demand (certain schools more than others) by adopting certain modalities because it was quite simply a more efficient way to get the job done. Not by coincidence those patterns of movements are not typically seen in many of the modern arts-in particular the unarmed ones. Take the weapons out of the hands of certain arts adepts and you will find some very powerful, centered movement. Add some other training into the mix and you would see even more powerful movement...now supported on all sides.

IME, it is mistake to think that all "movement" and all methods are equal and some guys are just more powerful than others. There are more efficient ways to move; externally and internally and fighting with it or not, is a different topic all together.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #55
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That he chose the one-line model (many Japanese did) when it was clear he didn't have to was a choice he made.
Dan,

Could you explain what the "one-line model" is and provide an example of another model by way of contrast? I'd like to understand this concept better.

Thanks,
...rab
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:36 PM   #56
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Dan,

Could you explain what the "one-line model" is and provide an example of another model by way of contrast? I'd like to understand this concept better.

Thanks,
...rab
Why not come down and see the newly renovated Barn/ dojo. It'll knock your socks off. Brand new top to bottom; Mahogany, black walnut, cedars and poplars, Aged copper panel, paper and stone and new Swain mats,.
And then I will show you first hand
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:45 PM   #57
niall
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Shioda is an interesting study in that he trained in Aikido and Daito ryu. He clearly has aiki...
Now I see what happened, Dan - it looks like our earlier misunderstanding really was about terminology. What you call aiki is what is called kokyu ryoku in Japanese (Chris suggested earlier that that was how Shioda Sensei used the term too). If you substitute aiki for kokyu ryoku in my posts you probably wouldn't feel the need to be so critical. Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.

It was used once though as the title of a movie...

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0021204a3.html

This is a good movie in fact. Maybe the only movie that has treated budo at all realistically. The DVD has English subtitles. It's kind of a grittty, dark and realistic story of triumph over adversity. There is some footage of Seigo Okamoto Sensei of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai over the final credits. This is an interview with the Danish budoka Ole Kingston Jensen whose impressive story was the original model for the movie.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=293

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Old 05-08-2010, 09:15 PM   #58
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
.... What you call aiki is what is called kokyu ryoku in Japanese (Chris suggested earlier that that was how Shioda Sensei used the term too). If you substitute aiki for kokyu ryoku in my posts you probably wouldn't feel the need to be so critical.
It's always a bit difficult talking terms. You can use a term and it has an applied meaning that may or may not be correct in the Yoshinkan. In either case that may be completetly different from what I am referrring to.

1. What does your Kokyu training do to you?
2. What does it do to the person touching you?

Is Kokyu everything? You said your teachers "Told you to pursue it at all costs" or somethig like that.
3. What will kokyu NOT do to your body?
4. What will Kokyu NOT do to the person touching you?

Teaching that breath power is all and aiki is kokyu-ryoku is your training model, not mine. No harm no foul. Breath power is an important componant, but there is much more on the way to creating an aiki body and controlling what people do to you...outside of kata...through the pursuit of a trained mind/body connection and use. And at every step of the way-the more conditioned the body becomes...aiki happens. And even then there are ways to train that and use it that are not all the same or equally efficient.

Quote:
Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.
IMO, aiki.... a joining of energy, begins with the joining of opposing energies held within the body to create a zero balance or central equilibrium in the body, a state of being that creates aiki on contact, instead of always doing things to people- you change you. And as far as that not being normal in the Japanese arts go- I learned that from within...a Japanese art. And there are other Koryu that have similar ideas as well in various forms.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:26 PM   #59
Michael Varin
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
We have to couple that with the documented fact that post war modern aikido is Tohei / Kissomaru based and not the founder.
Eeeehnt! Wrong.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:28 PM   #60
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Eeeehnt! Wrong.
We have Stans research based on interviews with all the big guns and his cross referrencing......and yours.
I think I'll stick with Stan.
Dan
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:28 PM   #61
Michael Varin
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.
Thank you for pointing this out.

This has bothered me for the some time now.

It is directly related to the incorrect way they use the term aiki.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:33 PM   #62
Michael Varin
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
We have Stans research based on interviews with all the big guns and his cross referrencing......and yours.
I think I'll stick with Stan.
Stan Pranin is awesome. I'll go with his research too.

But he wouldn't leave Saito off of that list.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:43 PM   #63
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Stan Pranin is awesome. I'll go with his research too.

But he wouldn't leave Saito off of that list.
Percentagewise, Saito did not have near the same influence on disseminating the art and the teaching that was going on from hombu as Tohei and Kissomaru. They were the predominate forces. Even then Tohei was the technical figure- compared to the later Kissomaru.
Dan
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:52 PM   #64
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.
Thank you for pointing this out.

This has bothered me for the some time now.

It is directly related to the incorrect way they use the term aiki.
Or we could say...It is the reason most people in the aiki arts talk so much about not being able to actually do aiki with any serious resistance or in freestyle fighting.

Or I could ask why is it that an ever increasing number of your arts teachers are switching to this older model and way of thinking once they feel it-and not your own? That's their assessment of things and not ours.

I am doing another seminar on aiki with a few shihan and several teachers from; Daito ryu, aikido (several different branches of aikido) Karate and koryu coming. So I could ask you:
Why are these seminars attended by these people repeatedly?
You might want to consider that there is a very strong chance that something is afoot that you are unaware of or know little about, that an ever increasing number of teachers are considering essential to their careers in budo. Just ask them.
Or maybe not, its all good
Good luck in your training
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-08-2010 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:04 PM   #65
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric

I look at all of this like a better way to work. If someone shows up on a job site with a better tool and method to cut wood-the carpenters there would not have an ego or vested interest in their previous method holding them back from working more efficiently and making a better living! I have seen it happen where entire crews change on the spot and/or buy knew equipment.

Budo should be the same way. Movement is movement. There are things you can see in interaction and movement.

IME, it is mistake to think that all "movement" and all methods are equal and some guys are just more powerful than others. There are more efficient ways to move; externally and internally and fighting with it or not, is a different topic all together.
Cheers
Dan
While it's fine for people to follow this line of thinking, I think it oversimplifies the value of learning the traditional arts. There's so much more going on in these arts than "efficient movement".

I think of a Jazz saxophone player listening to a shakuhachi player and dismissing it on the grounds that it wouldn't "work"
in the Blue Note on a Saturday night. You're judging something based on criteria that it was never meant to be judged on.

A huge number of traditional skills/bodies of knowledge have been wiped out across Europe over the past few centuries because they weren't "efficient"and we're all the poorer for it now.

Dismissing traditional traditional modes of learning/transmission merely because they're inconvenient to our current lifestyles is shortsighted IMO.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:18 PM   #66
niall
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. What does your Kokyu [ryoku] training do to you?
2. What does it do to the person touching you?

Is Kokyu everything? You said your teachers "Told you to pursue it at all costs" or somethig like that.

3. What will kokyu [ryoku] NOT do to your body?
4. What will Kokyu [ryoku] NOT do to the person touching you?

Teaching that breath power is all and aiki is kokyu-ryoku is your training model, not mine.
Dan thanks for that clear and reasoned comment and your interesting questions. I would suggest that you substitute your term aiki for kokyu ryoku and you will have your own answers. Yes I think kokyu ryoku is everything - is aiki everything for you? Looks like we might be saying the same thing.

With regard to training models catching/finding/developing kokyu ryoku (aiki in your vocabulary) is the goal, not the method, of training. There's no easy way to get it. The only way I know is through many years of hard sincere training and shugyo.

Have any of your teachers in Japanese budo used the word aiki? As I said it's not a word normally used in Japanese. I have never heard it used outside that movie! Maybe after O Sensei used the words kokyu ryoku people in other ryuha were reluctant to use the same term?!

But I'm quite happy to give you specific answers to your.questions (I am using the term kokyu ryoku, not kokyu).

1.If you can get kokyu ryoku (aiki...) everything becomes very easy. You don't think about body movement or the attack or what to do. You just do it. As I said in an earlier post - lifting your arm - without consciousness (mushin) - might be all.

2.The person touching you feels a powerful irresistible force and becomes helpless - almost like a marionette - BUT it feels wonderful for them too. It isn't intimidating or harmful. They follow the irresistible energy also because they want to (even if they don't realize that).

3.Sorry I don't understand this question. Kokyu ryoku when you get it is the same as breathing - what can breathing NOT do to your body?

4.Going on from question 2 kokyu ryoku will NOT give the person touching you any feeling of aggression, any pain, any harm or any negative feelings. Following on from that it will not cause destruction or any damage.

Let me ask and answer one final question that perhaps you hadn't considered.

5.What does kokyu ryoku do to the people watching.

The air changes. It seems to get clearer and purer like at the top of a mountain. I was the uke for Sadateru Arikawa Sensei (one of the world's foremost budoka) for more than ten years. At those times there was a sharp tension in the air. The watching students realized that something special - incredible even - was happening.

Here are a couple of links to short biographies of Arikawa Sensei - and he is also mentioned in these forums. The French one is more comprehensive.

http://www.aikicam.com/index.php?opt...=248&Itemid=56

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=518

I'll go into what kokyu ryoku is in some more detail and as simply as I can in a blog post one of these days. Thank you.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:42 PM   #67
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
While it's fine for people to follow this line of thinking, I think it oversimplifies the value of learning the traditional arts. There's so much more going on in these arts than "efficient movement".

I think of a Jazz saxophone player listening to a shakuhachi player and dismissing it on the grounds that it wouldn't "work"
in the Blue Note on a Saturday night. You're judging something based on criteria that it was never meant to be judged on.

A huge number of traditional skills/bodies of knowledge have been wiped out across Europe over the past few centuries because they weren't "efficient"and we're all the poorer for it now.

Dismissing traditional traditional modes of learning/transmission merely because they're inconvenient to our current lifestyles is shortsighted IMO.
That's interesting
This has nothing to do with altering the traditional arts. You are offering an opinion about a method. .Do you understand what I and others are discussing?
I have read this type of criticism on another forum. I am guessing, and truly only guessing that this type of critique comes from a presumption that we are teaching newbies and influencing them. This is a false assumption. The majority of people training this way are teachers or people with many years in the arts, all more than capable of making decisions on their own. As I stated above many are senior level teachers, some experts in their own right so some of the fears sound overwrought and generally do not address the realty of the training going on. I would very much enjoy hearing why you think it is harmful to any tradition. Seriously.
Here are a few questions of interest.

1. What does it have to do with learning/altering the traditional arts?
2. How is it harmful? In what way?
3. How is it changing the tradition in your view?
4. Do you suppose that of the hundreds of people now training this way-they want to quit/ alter/ make a fuss in some way? Instead they make positive comments about the effect on their training.

I teach teachers (for the most part)
5. Are you supposing men who have been in the arts for three, four and five decades are not capable of making decisions about their own training and traditions?
6. Have you spoken with them? What have they told you? Who are they?
7. SInce they comprise teachers of Koryu, hundreds of years old, teachers up to Shihan in Aikido, teachers of Daito ryu, teachers of traditional Karate,....what would you say to them about this training effecting their traditions?
FWIW, I am member of koryu myself, hundreds of years old, other members of which who train this way read these pages.
8. What would you say to us about this training and our ability to make decisions affecting our own tradition that we have not considered ourselves?

Thank you for any thoughts
Dan
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:51 AM   #68
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's interesting
This has nothing to do with altering the traditional arts. You are offering an opinion about a method. .Do you understand what I and others are discussing?
I have read this type of criticism on another forum. I am guessing, and truly only guessing that this type of critique comes from a presumption that we are teaching newbies and influencing them. This is a false assumption. The majority of people training this way are teachers or people with many years in the arts, all more than capable of making decisions on their own. As I stated above many are senior level teachers, some experts in their own right so some of the fears sound overwrought and generally do not address the realty of the training going on. I would very much enjoy hearing why you think it is harmful to any tradition. Seriously.
Here are a few questions of interest.

1. What does it have to do with learning/altering the traditional arts?
2. How is it harmful? In what way?
3. How is it changing the tradition in your view?
4. Do you suppose that of the hundreds of people now training this way-they want to quit/ alter/ make a fuss in some way? Instead they make positive comments about the effect on their training.

I teach teachers (for the most part)
5. Are you supposing men who have been in the arts for three, four and five decades are not capable of making decisions about their own training and traditions?
6. Have you spoken with them? What have they told you? Who are they?
7. SInce they comprise teachers of Koryu, hundreds of years old, teachers up to Shihan in Aikido, teachers of Daito ryu, teachers of traditional Karate,....what would you say to them about this training effecting their traditions?
FWIW, I am member of koryu myself, hundreds of years old, other members of which who train this way read these pages.
8. What would you say to us about this training and our ability to make decisions affecting our own tradition that we have not considered ourselves?

Thank you for any thoughts
Dan
I was referring to comments such as this:
"Budo should be the same way. Movement is movement. There are things you can see in interaction and movement."

My point is that Budo is not merely a "method" of efficient movement. That may be an important component of Budo (or any "way" for that matter) but I often get the impression from these discussions that other aspects are being ignored completely.

I was making a general point based on the your comments along with others on Aikiweb who have trained with you, in particular Mark Murray (who discontinued Aikido I believe). It seems to me from reading here that you DO seem to be influencing people. I may be wrong about this, but I'm only going on the general comments on this site.

If there are senior people in traditional arts who have/are training with you, I'd love read their comments about how they incorporate your training methodology into their arts. From reading most of your comments, you seem to see pretty much all traditional Japanese budo as seriously lacking a methodology in developing high level "Aiki"/efficient movement (perhaps I'm wrong about this?). You've also stated that the traditional model of teaching is seriously flawed in terms of withholding information, so I'm having trouble seeing how long term/senior students of the arts can train while maintaining two contradictory positions!

Perhaps the problem isn't with your comments as such as with the relative lack of public commentary by senior Koryu/Aikido people etc on the connection between what they've learned from you and others and how it impacts on their arts.

My comments might not address the reality of such training simply because I don't know anything about training in your Dojo or who trains with you! I'm restricting my points to comments made by you on this forum.

Ultimately, I rarely get involved in these discussions because of the time involved. Hopefully this reply helps clarify where I am coming from.
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:43 AM   #69
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

I would not have thought that there would be much of a problem incorporating another method into your practice, after all it is how these (all) MAs evolve. The mind body connection and pathways within the body are critical to internal martial arts, if you don't spend time developing them then you will always be missing something. In CMAs this is the Qigong and jibengong (basic) practices which should be continued ad infinitum.

Though i have never met or trained with Dan, Mark or anyone associated with than group if i did and found they had something that was more efficient or effective than my own training i would certainly find it a useful addition to my own training. I wouldn't really see the need to discontinue what i was currently doing, just have to work harder.

In the past many others have done the same eg i think Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate studied with Yoshida Kotaro a long time student of Sokaku Takeda.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:40 AM   #70
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why not come down and see the newly renovated Barn/ dojo. It'll knock your socks off. Brand new top to bottom; Mahogany, black walnut, cedars and poplars, Aged copper panel, paper and stone and new Swain mats,.
And then I will show you first hand
Dan
I'll take you up on that at the earliest chance I get. I was already jealous of the dojo space - what you've done to it sounds incredible. Can't wait to see it first hand...

...rab

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 05-09-2010 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:43 AM   #71
DH
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I was referring to comments such as this:
"Budo should be the same way. Movement is movement. There are things you can see in interaction and movement."

My point is that Budo is not merely a "method" of efficient movement. That may be an important component of Budo (or any "way" for that matter) but I often get the impression from these discussions that other aspects are being ignored completely.

I was making a general point based on the your comments along with others on Aikiweb who have trained with you, in particular Mark Murray (who discontinued Aikido I believe). It seems to me from reading here that you DO seem to be influencing people. I may be wrong about this, but I'm only going on the general comments on this site.

If there are senior people in traditional arts who have/are training with you, I'd love read their comments about how they incorporate your training methodology into their arts. From reading most of your comments, you seem to see pretty much all traditional Japanese budo as seriously lacking a methodology in developing high level "Aiki"/efficient movement (perhaps I'm wrong about this?). You've also stated that the traditional model of teaching is seriously flawed in terms of withholding information, so I'm having trouble seeing how long term/senior students of the arts can train while maintaining two contradictory positions!

Perhaps the problem isn't with your comments as such as with the relative lack of public commentary by senior Koryu/Aikido people etc on the connection between what they've learned from you and others and how it impacts on their arts.

My comments might not address the reality of such training simply because I don't know anything about training in your Dojo or who trains with you! I'm restricting my points to comments made by you on this forum.

Ultimately, I rarely get involved in these discussions because of the time involved. Hopefully this reply helps clarify where I am coming from.
Thank you for your clarification. It would have been better had you answered my queries more directly.
As has happened with several people who set themselves up as defenders of traditional training- it is clear that there is some really strident misunderstanding going on. It appears they take serious offense...to a situation they have only imagined in their own minds..
Imagine if you will, being a shihan or Koryu menkyo and choosing to adopt certain training methods and having some guy fearing FOR you, that you don't know what you're doing in your practice. Further concerns seem to be about the exchange of information / misinformation and what is supposedly what. Other than oath violations-which I have never personally seen take place, the information is out there, and some koryu people (who can talk) are talking here and there but keeping it quiet.

It is interesting to see this type of interaction happening within arts as well and that is a clear precedant for the current debate. Case in point: a shihan from the Takumakia went to Tokimune to improve his aiki.
What did Tokimune teach him?
Solo training to condition the body to make aiki. When he brought it back to the Takumakai they didn't want to do them, they opted for the much slower and chancier way to do it- through kata. When the shihan went back to Tokimune he said "Yes I know, none of my people want to do them either." We can also look at various Koryu which have solo training to condition a bujutsu body. How, why and just where it produces aiki is an interesting study that I will let these teachers be the judges of. They have some VERY strong opinions on what it is doing for them, and for those who want to judge their own abilities to judge the value of it.

Individual cases V corporate cases
Your mentioning of Mark is a single case out of dozens like him. He left aikido because he had no place to train this -within aikido.
Others had the same problem. They went to various seminars and found no place to practice this training back in their home dojo. The teachers didn't get it-and were certainly not as connected as the men they had just trained with at the seminars. I picked up on the problems from reading comments here on aikiweb. My solution was to offer to teach...teachers. This solved the problem by allowing teachers to see the value first hand, and they in turn would set up a venue in their own schools.
This is where the "defenders of tadititonal arts" arguments fail on their own merits. These teachers-seniors by all accounts in Budo- consider this training and what it is doing to their bodies and their aiki to be so important that they are putting time aside from their teaching to pursue it. I have learned quite a bit by listening to their feedback in what it is doing to their teaching and among their student base. Thus it is directly affecting hundreds of people-not only from within traditional arts but in traditional training methods as well.

Allen's comments to you are from a Chinese art perspective on this type of training. That model -understanding solo training to build a bujutsu body- predates the Japanese model by many generations.
Various training practices-to include breath-power training predate Japan and are universal to many cultures.

Last and to end it on topic
Shioda rose to fame doing what? Stock in trade Kodokai aiki displays. After he did what? Went to train in Daito ryu to learn aiki.

Please note my response was not some cheap commentary like "Gee, thank you for your concerns about our welfare, but we can take care of ourselves." rather, I am attempting to clarify, in order to reach some level of understanding that is more informed. At least then people can judge and disagree, but from a more informed position then what I keep reading on different forums.
All in all, I think this is improving the aiki arts, re-focusing them back on bujutsu; the anticendents or roots, if you will. It is already making improvement in the power and sensitivity of teachers and practiioners alike. If the rumors prove to be true-several organization heads are aware, and some are soon to be impacted by it on a broader scale as the teachers are making it mandatory training.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. Since your concerns were for traditional modes of teaching, I didn't cover various MMA people I have trained with and their own view on the value of this training being used in MMA type of training. I think it speaks even futher of the universality of the method, that it can creat aiki connection in freestyle fighting. Again not your concern, but at least for me, it makes a connection to our past when the men were truly capable- using traditional methodologies many modern practioners can only dream of.

Last edited by DH : 05-09-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:53 AM   #72
chillzATL
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
I would not have thought that there would be much of a problem incorporating another method into your practice, after all it is how these (all) MAs evolve. The mind body connection and pathways within the body are critical to internal martial arts, if you don't spend time developing them then you will always be missing something. In CMAs this is the Qigong and jibengong (basic) practices which should be continued ad infinitum.

Though i have never met or trained with Dan, Mark or anyone associated with than group if i did and found they had something that was more efficient or effective than my own training i would certainly find it a useful addition to my own training. I wouldn't really see the need to discontinue what i was currently doing, just have to work harder.

In the past many others have done the same eg i think Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate studied with Yoshida Kotaro a long time student of Sokaku Takeda.
It's not that it can't be done. Ueshiba did it successfully, but he also had the luxury of being able to train all day, every day, doing whatever he wanted for his entire life.

Think of it like you're a tennis player. You've been playing for years and you're very good. One day you come across someone who just blows you away and they do it in a manner unlike anyone else you've played or seen. They move differently, hit the ball different, etc. They offer to show you what they're doing and you take those exercises back and work on them a fwe hours a week, all the while playing 20 hours of tennis every week "the old way". You might eventually get to where you're striking the ball "kinda" like that person did, and you can see the benefits on the court, but that's about all you got.

Now contrast that with a situation where you stopped playing at all for a while and did nothing but focus on burning what that person showed you into your body so that you no longer move "the old way" anymore. You're going to get results faster and more likely, results with fewer impurities brought on by the bad habits of that old method.
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:03 AM   #73
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Allan Featherstone wrote: View Post
I would not have thought that there would be much of a problem incorporating another method into your practice, after all it is how these (all) MAs evolve. The mind body connection and pathways within the body are critical to internal martial arts, if you don't spend time developing them then you will always be missing something. In CMAs this is the Qigong and jibengong (basic) practices which should be continued ad infinitum.

Though i have never met or trained with Dan, Mark or anyone associated with than group if i did and found they had something that was more efficient or effective than my own training i would certainly find it a useful addition to my own training. I wouldn't really see the need to discontinue what i was currently doing, just have to work harder..
Hi Allen
I have to get used to seeing you here now eh?
I don't think many in the JMA see that connection and how it adds, not detracts. Also the ability to discern; good or bad, correct or incorrect, what is more useful and martial and what is not, is always a concern-you could spend years chasing a dead end.

Quote:
In the past many others have done the same eg i think Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate studied with Yoshida Kotaro a long time student of Sokaku Takeda
Ah yes, I forgot about him and Richard Kim as well.
What did Mas say in his book about his Daito ryu teacher Something like "To my most valued teacher...."

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-09-2010 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:05 AM   #74
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"



"1. What does it have to do with learning/altering the traditional arts?
2. How is it harmful? In what way?
3. How is it changing the tradition in your view?
4. Do you suppose that of the hundreds of people now training this way-they want to quit/ alter/ make a fuss in some way? Instead they make positive comments about the effect on their training....

"Thank you for your clarification. It would have been better had you answered my queries more directly.
As has happened with several people who set themselves up as defenders of traditional training- it is clear that there is some really strident misunderstanding going on. It appears they take serious offense...to a situation they have only imagined in their own minds..
Imagine if you will, being a shihan or Koryu menkyo and choosing to adopt certain training methods and having some guy fearing FOR you, that you don't know what you're doing in your practice. Further concerns seem to be about the exchange of information / misinformation and what is supposedly what. Other than oath violations-which I have never personally seen take place, the information is out there, and some koryu people (who can talk) are talking here and there but keeping it quiet.
"

I'm not speaking on behalf of people I don't know. I'm basing my opinons on my own experience. There are approaches/techinques and training methods that, had I abandoned them in exchange for short term more practical/immediate gains, I wouldn't have begun to understand their depth. Please note. I am not dismissing solo training whatsoever, but there are levels of knowledge involved in other components of the arts, such as Kata, rei ukemi training in Daito Ryu/Aikido etc that are vital to these arts transmissions. From what I read of your comments here you downplay all these other elements.

"It is interesting to see this type of interaction happening within arts as well and that is a clear precedant for the current debate. Case in point: a shihan from the Takumakia went to Tokimune to improve his aiki.
What did Tokimune teach him?
Solo training to condition the body to make aiki. When he brought it back to the Takumakai they didn't want to do them, they opted for the much slower and chancier way to do it- through kata. When the shihan went back to Tokimune he said "Yes I know, none of my people want to do them either." We can also look at various Koryu which have solo training to condition a bujutsu body. How, why and just where it produces aiki is an interesting study that I will let these teachers be the judges of. They have some VERY strong opinions on what it is doing for them, and for those who want to judge their own abilities to judge the value of it."


With respect, I think you're simplifying things. There are a number of Takumakai people with very high level aiki who to the best of my knowledge didn't get it from Tokimune.

Equally, at least one of Tokimune's shihan practiced and taught solo training.

"Individual cases V corporate cases
Your mentioning of Mark is a single case out of dozens like him. He left aikido because he had no place to train this -within aikido.
Others had the same problem. They went to various seminars and found no place to practice this training back in their home dojo. The teachers didn't get it-and were certainly not as connected as the men they had just trained with at the seminars. I picked up on the problems from reading comments here on aikiweb. My solution was to offer to teach...teachers. This solved the problem by allowing teachers to see the value first hand, and they in turn would set up a venue in their own schools.
This is where the "defenders of tadititonal arts" arguments fail on their own merits. These teachers-seniors by all accounts in Budo- consider this training and what it is doing to their bodies and their aiki to be so important that they are putting time aside from their teaching to pursue it. I have learned quite a bit by listening to their feedback in what it is doing to their teaching and among their student base. Thus it is directly affecting hundreds of people-not only from within traditional arts but in traditional training methods as well."


That's great, and I don't doubt that you're teaching something very valuable. I'm simply doubting that it's the whole story when it comes to traditional arts. Of course, I may be wrong...

"Allen's comments to you are from a Chinese art perspective on this type of training. That model -understanding solo training to build a bujutsu body- predates the Japanese model by many generations.
Various training practices-to include breath-power training predate Japan and are universal to many cultures."


I understand solo/breath training is vital, but I don't see how Alan's comments contradict what I said. I'm not knocking training that makes one BETTER. I'm questioning training that takes one away from learning within the perameters of one's art, especially at the beginning levels.

It's a fine line between innovation and conservation for sure.

My main point is that, before people dismiss models of practice that seem antiquated/inefficient, we should be aware that these practices may hold vital teachings that only reveal themselves over time,

If people know what they're doing, good luck to them.

"Last and to end it on topic
Shioda rose to fame doing what? Stock in trade Kodokai aiki displays. After he did what? Went to train in Daito ryu to learn aiki."


I know

"Please note my response was not some cheap commentary like "Gee, thank you for your concerns about our welfare, but we can take care of ourselves." rather, I am attempting to clarify, in order to reach some level of understanding that is more informed. At least then people can judge and disagree, but from a more informed position then what I keep reading on different forums."

I appreciate that. Hence I've taken a lot of time to reply.

"All in all, I think this is improving the aiki arts, re-focusing them back on bujutsu; the anticendents or roots, if you will. It is already making improvement in the power and sensitivity of teachers and practiioners alike. If the rumors prove to be true-several organization heads are aware, and some are soon to be impacted by it on a broader scale as the teachers are making it mandatory training."

That's great. I'm looking forward to seeing the fruits of such work on a wider scale.

This is incredibly time consuming for me.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.

Regards
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:24 AM   #75
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Yoshinkan and "aiki"

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
Aiki as something you have isn't normally used in Japanese.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Thank you for pointing this out.

This has bothered me for the some time now.

It is directly related to the incorrect way they use the term aiki.
Maybe it's incorrect in the usual aikido way of explaining aiki, but aikido comes from daito ryu and here is a little of how it was explained there--not as a dynamic of moving around an attacker's movement, but of a force emanating from the aiki man:

From Stan Pranin's "Conversations with Daito Ryu Masters" (p. 95)

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
During practice (Kodo) Horikawa would apply aiki and keep it applied for minutes on end while he was speaking, so it was pretty rough on his partner!

MORISHITA:
Yes, because you weren't able to move at all. And gradually, it would become difficult to breathe.""

They're not talking about "applying aiki" by doing tenkan or getting the opponent in an armlock. This is where the opponent grabs or just touches Horikawa and he "emits" aiki force into their bodies as you see on page 97 of the same book. Also, same page of the same book:

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
He even had aiki in the soles of his feet.""

He had aiki.

And on p. 96:

""MRS. HORIKAWA:
He would send aiki through his fingers...""

So in daito ryu, aiki is something you "have".

It was in aikido that it became something you "do".

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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