Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2010, 10:45 AM   #26
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 270
Netherlands
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

hello Szczepan,
Glad to see you haven't changed. we met several years ago at the Hombu in a seminar with tada sensei, and then went for a drink with peter goldsbury. You were pretty clear in your thoughts then, maybe a touch abrasive for the gentler souls amongst us but you do walk your talk, and you've trained long enough to speak your mind. Osu

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 11:37 AM   #27
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,173
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Actually the less reading and video viewing the better. Too much information is not helpful and distracts from your learning.

"Cast off limiting thoughts and return to true emptiness. Stand in the midst of the Great Void. This is the secret of the Way of a Warrior."

O'Sensei

And now a few more quotes from O'Sensei:

"The Way of a Warrior cannot be encompassed by words or in letters: grasp the essence and move on toward realization! "

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted practice that the mysteries of Aikido are brought to life."

"In your training do not be in a hurry, for it takes a minimum of ten years to master the basics and advance to the first rung. Never think of yourself as an all-knowing, perfected master; you must continue to train daily with your friends and students and progress together in Aikido."



"Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit
. "


David

Last edited by dps : 01-05-2010 at 11:44 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 01:48 PM   #28
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Hi Guys,
I was thinking more about the how's and why's of workings of waza; and also the hows/&whys of building your strength versus …the more nebulous state-of-mind/consciousness/"way" considerations, which I believe you are alluding to. Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 03:22 PM   #29
Eugene Leslie
 
Eugene Leslie's Avatar
Location: Red Deer
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 59
Canada
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Without books and reading (and the internet now) how would one know of Japan let alone martial arts and Aikido?
Here's a book.... Farenheit 451.
As far as the written word goes, as a student of history I learned long ago that one should read many sources and then decide for oneself.

Of course people who espouse their superior knowledge on a subject without credentials and the actions of studying should be corrected . There are those whom seek to subvert and practice anarchy or profitable greed.
Should I defend the fact that I am a beginner when I ask questions?
I'm trusting in faith of the experienced to guide me in my new endeavor. I never once said "I know already" because I read a book.
But I do have life experience.
I appreciate criticism and correction.
From what I understand (from reading those books), the experienced Aikidoka should be exhibiting patience and understanding towards beginners, no?
If one trains/studies any craft for many years, and a comment or question of a neophyte raises their heart-rate and causes contempt and resentment....then are they really a mentor or someone that can be trusted to teach or explain? Especially Aikido which Osensei says is a gift to the world. Love and compassion.
I sincerely apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes.
Thanks for the links Mr. Krause and the explanation of "styles" or the real lack thereof. I have been informed.

I'm trying really hard to reject my hard-wired westernized ego and be the loving character my spirit wants me to be; but it is made difficult when stonewalled and/or treated with slight regard.
I'm not trying to puff myself up or appear intelligent or knowledgeable. My questions and comments may be misconstrued as such. I have been in many fights as youngster; it was survival..and I approach Aikido with that in mind. That's why I asked about the effectiveness of Aikido in a real fight. I'm not an MMA guy or a scrapper. Now that I'm older my spirit is guiding me towards my true purpose and true character. And it has brought me to Aikido and the teachings of Morehei Ueshiba.
I want to beleive so I will have continued faith in people and just clam up. I don't want to contend. Osensei instructed not to.
Thank-you Mr.Skaggs for the reality check from the source.

Last edited by Eugene Leslie : 01-05-2010 at 03:31 PM.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 03:52 PM   #30
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

this thread is kind of weird.
Beginners aren't allowed to have an opinion on their new passion? They should just shut up and train?
Weird.
Sure they'll have alot of misconceptions and a lot of learning to do, but for many people (like myself) talking discussing reading and engaging in dialogue is part of how they learn, how they start to process information. No one is suggesting this as a substitute for training but as and adjunct to it, very useful, and, frankly enjoyable.
So why jump down their throats?

Secondly
"More you practice, less you have to say about aikido"

really? That raises the obvious question, why bother to somewhere like aikiweb in the first place??

Seems odd to me to come to an internet discussion forum on Aikido and berate people for wanting to discuss Aikido.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 03:59 PM   #31
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Hi Eugene.

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Without books and reading (and the internet now) how would one know of Japan let alone martial arts and Aikido?
Here's a book.... Farenheit 451.
As far as the written word goes, as a student of history I learned long ago that one should read many sources and then decide for oneself.
I think you have a point, but I hope you understand the limitations and implicit trap in relying on book learn'n for this endeavor.

Quote:
Should I defend the fact that I am a beginner when I ask questions?
No.

Quote:
I'm trusting in faith of the experienced to guide me in my new endeavor.
Caveat Emptor -- use that life experience of yours.

Quote:
From what I understand (from reading those books), the experienced Aikidoka should be exhibiting patience and understanding towards beginners, no?
That's a nice ideal, but "should" plus a buck-fifty buys a cup of coffee....

More importantly, while it may seem so to you, I don't think you were treated with impatience or a lack of understanding. Szczepan not only seemed just to be giving you his honest understanding, he also represents a view about your questions that is held to some extent by many people.

There's a difference between being a student "of Aikido" and being an Aikido student. One thing I've seen with a number of folks over the years who rely on "understanding" Aikido is the difficulty in letting go of their concepts on the mat, which interfers significantly with really learning through practice. I still am working on this part of my "multiplication tables."

Quote:
If one trains/studies any craft for many years, and a comment or question of a neophyte raises their heart-rate and causes contempt and resentment....then are they really a mentor or someone that can be trusted to teach or explain?
Again, I perceived the interaction differently. However, you should be aware that people have a number of reasons for responding to posts aside from some self-concept that they are playing a "mentor."

One also could make the argument that, particularly with a person who wants to do alot of reading and thinking about aikido, and also wants to learn Aikido, the best single peice of advice a "mentor" could give would be to forget your concepts and practice.

Quote:
I want to beleive so I will have continued faith in people and just clam up.
I appreciate your sincerity, but, with equal sincerity, I wonder why you feel a need for folks you are interacting with on the internet to act in a certain way in order for you to have faith. I think it's enough to practice and develop faith in yourself, whatever path you choose.

Sincerely,

cdh
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 05:05 PM   #32
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

re: the reading is bad/good thing,

O'Sensei was a big reader, read a wide variety of books on a wide variety of topics. I am willing to bet he tied it all to Aikido in his own mind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 05:36 PM   #33
donplummer
 
donplummer's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido School of Self Defense/Monticello NY
Location: Lower New York State
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18
United_States
Offline
Talking Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Does it really "work" in a fight?
"My Aikido works, does yours???"

Last edited by akiy : 01-05-2010 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Fixed quoting

"of all the things I've lost, I ,miss my mind the most..."-mushin-
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 06:53 PM   #34
David Board
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
Location: Reno/NV
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You just said it yourself: as a beginner, you really have no concept. So...give you a break? What does that even mean? When a beginner in mathematics wants to have a conversation about differential equations -- a subject that he/she lacks the foundational knowledge to understand -- should one "give him/her a break" and have the conversation anyway? Even though it won't be understood and can only lead to confusion? Or is it appropriate instead to direct the beginner towards a beginner's activity, i.e., the acquisition of that foundational knowledge? That, I think, is what Szczepan is trying to do.

(By the way...I don't have any concept either. That's why I'm over here, working on my times tables, rather than trying to chat up the professors about diff eq)

It depends. What's the "fight"? Who's attacking, why are they attacking, how many are they, what are their skills, are they armed, where is this happening? How do you define "work"? Frame the question, then look for the answer. Better still, frame the question, then ask yourself if it really needs answering. Are you in the habit of fighting on a regular basis?

Nope. Not gonna do it. I'm just gonna work on my times tables, and I suggest you do the same. The concepts will come to you when you're ready. You do not need to seek them out.
I am very very bad at multiplication tables and quite good at differential equations. I am even better at matrix algebra. I do however understand multiplication. My understanding began by learning my multiplications tables but even more came from learning were and how multiplication can be used. I didn't learn this in math class. I learned this in physics and biology. I then brought what I learned back to mathematics and applied that learning there. Your data points can come from many sources the key is to weight them properly.

In elementary school I had one teacher that was very good at teaching multiplication tables. Most in the class would role of those 13s like nobodies business (well except me, I'm still stuck trying to remember what 7*6 is ). But I this did when it came to algebra. What helped in algebra was learning that one way of thinking about multiplication was to think of it as adding groups. But that didn't help me understand differentiation; that came from understanding multiplication as rates. Telling someone to go back and do their times tables will not help them achieve an understanding of differential equations. Relating what they do understand to where they want to go will. Suggesting a book that might help, showing them a "cool puzzle" that illustrates the relation and further their understanding will.

In my job I build models (statistical models) and test them against data. Then I rebuild my model and collect more data. I talk to others that are building similar models and add what they have learned to my understanding of my models and what I want to add to my model or how I might adjust my model. When I begin to build a new model, I read about the subject, talk to experts and because I typically build models about things I'm interested in I add in some personal experience (this can be very limited or it can be extensive depends on the subject). Then I collect data and test the data against the model.

My approach to Aikido is similar. I have experts, my Sensei, the sempai and everybody else that is above me in rank and some folks below me that for whatever reason grasp a technique better than I do. I also have several books. To be honest the books are technical manuals, I use them to help me remember what comes after I move off the line or whether the hand goes to the inside or the outside. Sometimes, however, the description in the books provides me insight because the technique is described in different way than my Sensei uses and for what ever reason they work better for my understanding. In the end though, the lectures and books are tested on the mat. That is when I can feel and see why the hand goes to the inside (sometimes, sometimes it's several weeks latter and somethings just haven't come yet.)

I can learn Aikido solely from training. But books and the experience of the sempai and other students provide me with access to years of mat time and data that I don't have. They provide me with additional information and sometime model constructs that I hadn't thought of. You have to weight them properly and knowing how to weight information can be difficult. In the end, what works on the mat is what works. Regardless of the grand theory of Aikido. Whether that theory came from book learnin' or years of practice.

All that being said, I defer to anyone with more mat time than myself on what is going on in Aikido. I'm not one to say "I read Dynamic Shpere and it says..." or "in Takemusa Aikido it shows the technique this way." If anything I might say "Sensei was showing it this way wasn't he?"

Dang if I didn't get wordy. And please don't take this as a post about Aikido because it isn't. I know too little and have tested my models with too few data points to say anything about Aikido. It is a post about how people learn, myself in particular. And where information can come from. I find the written word as helpful as the spoken word and a description can be better than a demonstration.

Last edited by David Board : 01-05-2010 at 06:59 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 09:44 PM   #35
Eugene Leslie
 
Eugene Leslie's Avatar
Location: Red Deer
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 59
Canada
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I appreciate your sincerity, but, with equal sincerity, I wonder why you feel a need for folks you are interacting with on the internet to act in a certain way in order for you to have faith. I think it's enough to practice and develop faith in yourself, whatever path you choose.

Sincerely,

cdh
(faith = faith in Osensei's vision of Aikido)

You're right of course.

Perhaps I forget at times that people are individuals and everyone has their own little idiosyncracies which should be overlooked. Perhaps it is fear of rejection. Perhaps I misperceive at times. Perhaps it is idealism and this is probably closest to the truth: not everyone has the ideals and virtues of Osensei nor should one expect another in Aikido to practice the same ideals of a spiritual giant like him; but they ought to be an example at least....in their tone if not their content....especially the sempai.
Forget mentor...choose another word......my main point in all this, (and I maintain my stance), is, I repeatThe reason I was drawn to aikido was the spiritual aspects (call them concepts, blueberrys, rainbarrels, whatever) so that's my topic and this is a forum on Aikido; right??
And YES, I do expect folks...Aiki folks to act in a certain way...to an extent at least to maintain a certain "faith" in Osenseis vision. I've been privy to the alternative in other MAs and it's rather ugly to me.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
One also could make the argument that, particularly with a person who wants to do alot of reading and thinking about aikido, and also wants to learn Aikido, the best single peice of advice a "mentor" could give would be to forget your concepts and practice.
Why have these forums at all then?

Its funny..... I'm excited and passionate about Aikido and the venerable founder but I'm finding in some cases the apple has fallen far from the tree.......but the universe gives me examples to follow when I least expect them that recharge my batteries.

Faith faith faith. D**n straight I require it! I've read (too much) about the war and the deprivations that occur on earth even now and my own life experiences and I'm not searching for divine answers in Aikido I'm merely believing. (I spelled it right this time).

Thank-you for your insights. I read them with an open heart and mind.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 09:18 AM   #36
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,827
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Perhaps it is idealism and this is probably closest to the truth: not everyone has the ideals and virtues of Osensei nor should one expect another in Aikido to practice the same ideals of a spiritual giant like him; but they ought to be an example at least....in their tone if not their content....especially the sempai.
Right! Now, if you can just establish what "the ideals and virtues of Osensei" were, then we can get right down to enforcing conformity with same among all who practice aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 09:56 AM   #37
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
hello Szczepan,
Glad to see you haven't changed. we met several years ago at the Hombu in a seminar with tada sensei, and then went for a drink with peter goldsbury. You were pretty clear in your thoughts then, maybe a touch abrasive for the gentler souls amongst us but you do walk your talk, and you've trained long enough to speak your mind. Osu
Hi Alec, how's going?
I remember you very well, recently we talked with my wife about that meeting with you and Peter in the context of planning our next trip to Japan I hope we will meet again one day to practice and have nice beer waza! Are you in Holland?

Abrasive?
I'd rather say -- firm. I'm very polite person, but the training taught me to recognize specific situations when you have to be firm and clearly state what is white and what is black. Of course I don't have any illusions as to efficiency of my writing. Changing someone is a difficult process and can't be done with words.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 10:03 AM   #38
David Board
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
Location: Reno/NV
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Right! Now, if you can just establish what "the ideals and virtues of Osensei" were, then we can get right down to enforcing conformity with same among all who practice aikido.
A little more than a month ago, Mary Heiny gave a seminar at the dojo here and at the end of the seminars we had a chance to ask questions of her. One of the questions was about styles and traditions of Aikido (in particular the Kiai) but what was interesting about her reply was that she felt that O'Sensei taught different "styles" in different locations and to different student (<-That almost needs a Capital S). She attributed this to O'Sensei being in tune with the needs and special nature of both the location as well as the student being taught.

I don't know how relevant that observation is or even how factual. However, perhaps it has some bearing on the overall discussion of conformity and styles of Aikido. Now back to those multiplication tables. Where was I...7 times 6 is...dang it stuck again.

Last edited by David Board : 01-06-2010 at 10:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 10:18 AM   #39
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,148
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
this thread is kind of weird.
Beginners aren't allowed to have an opinion on their new passion? They should just shut up and train?
Weird.
Sure they'll have alot of misconceptions and a lot of learning to do, but for many people (like myself) talking discussing reading and engaging in dialogue is part of how they learn, how they start to process information. No one is suggesting this as a substitute for training but as and adjunct to it, very useful, and, frankly enjoyable.
So why jump down their throats?

Secondly
"More you practice, less you have to say about aikido"

really? That raises the obvious question, why bother to somewhere like aikiweb in the first place??

Seems odd to me to come to an internet discussion forum on Aikido and berate people for wanting to discuss Aikido.
Ideally, yes, no opinions, only empty mind. This way they have no emotional or intellectual filters, and can learn exactly what instructor is teaching. Have you ever seen such situation, when during seminar guest instructor is trying to teach something, but 99% ppl still practice exactly the same way as they do in their own dojo? That happens because they already have their own opinion how the technique should work.

Regarding your second question, I have few friends here and I like to chat with them sometimes. Also there are some very advanced aikidoka whose opinions are important to read.

I'm not against discussing Aikido, but against no-kyu and 5th kyu shihans lecturing everybody what aikido is and how we should practice. They create the informational noise on the forum that suffocates valuable info that comes from experienced folks.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 11:17 AM   #40
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,173
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Time for famous Zen story;

A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master.
While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 11:19 AM   #41
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 847
Germany
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
The reason I was drawn to aikido was the spiritual aspects ...
What are those "spiritual aspects"?
O Sensei was a believer of Oomoto kyo. So are we talking about shinto here?
In our dojo there is no talking about spiritual aspects. We just practice ...

Quote:
at least to maintain a certain "faith" in O Senseis vision.
What is this vision?
O Sensei thought of Japan bringing peace to the world.
I am not Japanese.

Quote:
but I'm finding in some cases the apple has fallen far from the tree
I it really an apple, what you find far from ...
... what tree do you consider to be the one of aikido?

I'm not sure, but reading about you thinking about faith, maybe I'd rather invite you into my church.Not into my dojo. I think.

hhhmmm

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 11:42 AM   #42
David Board
Dojo: Aikido of Reno
Location: Reno/NV
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Ideally, yes, no opinions, only empty mind. This way they have no emotional or intellectual filters, and can learn exactly what instructor is teaching. Have you ever seen such situation, when during seminar guest instructor is trying to teach something, but 99% ppl still practice exactly the same way as they do in their own dojo? That happens because they already have their own opinion how the technique should work.

Regarding your second question, I have few friends here and I like to chat with them sometimes. Also there are some very advanced aikidoka whose opinions are important to read.

I'm not against discussing Aikido, but against no-kyu and 5th kyu shihans lecturing everybody what aikido is and how we should practice. They create the informational noise on the forum that suffocates valuable info that comes from experienced folks.
5th kyu and no Kyu's, hopefully, come to Aikido with an open mind or at least have fewer Aikido habits built up. This is why, they should be able to have some voice, not a lot, but some voice.

I am 5th Kyu and recently went to a seminar and what you described while not common did occur (the Sensei complimented the dojo for it's openness to her instruction). It in fact happened to one of my partners. We were doing a connectivity exercise where I was supposed to resist/push back when he moved his hands towards me and when he felt the pressure he was supposed to stop the forward motion. As instructed when his hands moved forward I resisted/pushed back and he being stronger pushed through my resistance. I asked and he said he was just pushing through and doing the technique properly. He's a black belt so my assumption was that I had misunderstood the exercise and we continued on in that manner until corrected by the Sensei. I got chastised for not resisting until the instructor realized the situation and then corrected the balckbelt. If the blackbelt was open minded and willing to listen either to the instructor or the 5th kyu then more time would have been spent learning from the exercise.

That is not to say that out of babes comes wisdom. I have 3 kids all under the age of 8. Most of the time what they have to say is feed me, I don't want to and now that the boys are a little older really silly fart jokes. My house is filled with noise and I have a full fledged 7 year old Shihan well versed in the ways of Mythbusters. But if I listen, occasionally there is insight. Now, I don't let them lecture me but I am willing to listen when they have something to contribute.

When I first saw this thread and read the original post. I dismissed it. It felt like so many of the blogs and message board posts that are out on the internet. The beginner having a break through and insights wanting to share their experience. I find them a bit self aggrandizing but that is perhaps because I grew up in a Methodist church and we didn't testify! There is nothing wrong with this and perhaps others get more from them than I do. I keep a journal of my insight and learned technique. I keep them to myself (in general) since well they are mine and to be honest I don't have enough data to publish and as of yet have not had any insight that I have not seen expressed else where.

But I still look to see what others have to say. Sometimes there's something there and to chastise them for their efforts seems to defeat the opportunity. I also see no harm in beginners hashing out there ideas and insight among themselves. Tell each other what they are experiencing and learning. It shouldn't detract from getting on the mat. And it shouldn't be taken as great insight. But dialogue can help some people understand better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 01:03 PM   #43
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Why have these forums at all then?
Hi Eugene,

Please keep in mind I started by acknowledging you had a point. It's perfectly okay to be both a "student of Aikido" and an "aikido student," but if you rely on your understanding of Aikido when it is time to learn Aikido, I don't think it works so well.

For example: even "cultivate an empty mind" can simply be another voice in my head that I drag onto the mat with me, that keeps me from seeing, feeling, and doing what really is being shown.

But I think it's still a concept worth discussing.

BTW, to me cultivating an empty mind or beginner's mind is not the same as having an "open mind," in the sense of being open to new ideas.

For example, when I see a technique performed and say, "Oh, Sensei is showing ikkyo," I've labeled the interaction in a way that may allow me to imitate what I thought I just saw. But it often gets in the way of really seeing (and sometimes, vicariously feeling) what was demonstrated.

Or, if I'm taking ukemi from my teacher, and I start to think, "Oh,he's about to perform shiho nage," it may feel like I've figure something out that will help me. If he then actually does shiho nage, however, I'm likely to have anticipated the technique, turning the interaction into a dance; if he changes technique, I'm likely to have that deer-in-the-headlights look as I get hammered.

Either way, my reliance on understanding what is happening is interfering with learning in-my-body.

YMMV
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2010, 01:09 PM   #44
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,854
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Hi Szczepan,
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'm not against discussing Aikido, but against no-kyu and 5th kyu shihans lecturing everybody what aikido is and how we should practice. They create the informational noise on the forum that suffocates valuable info that comes from experienced folks.
I sincerely disagree with your notion that people with less experience are not welcome in engaging in or initiating discussion here on AikiWeb.

If you feel that someone else here on AikiWeb has an opinion or experience that contradicts yours, please engage with them on the issues that they bring up rather than directing your discussion towards their person (which, in this case, is their level of experience).

Please direct all other thoughts on this topic to the Feedback forum rather than diverting the topic of this thread.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 01:39 AM   #45
Eugene Leslie
 
Eugene Leslie's Avatar
Location: Red Deer
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 59
Canada
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
What are those "spiritual aspects"?
O Sensei was a believer of Oomoto kyo. So are we talking about shinto here?
In our dojo there is no talking about spiritual aspects. We just practice ...

What is this vision?
O Sensei thought of Japan bringing peace to the world.
I am not Japanese.

I it really an apple, what you find far from ...
... what tree do you consider to be the one of aikido?

I'm not sure, but reading about you thinking about faith, maybe I'd rather invite you into my church.Not into my dojo. I think.

hhhmmm

Carsten
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Right! Now, if you can just establish what "the ideals and virtues of Osensei" were, then we can get right down to enforcing conformity with same among all who practice aikido.
Really guys? If you disagree w/ me or don't like my comments just say as much. Why the sardonic contention?
The words "spiritual", "ideals", "vision" and "virtue" were all my limited vocabulary could conjure.
I wrote a disclaimer sentence in one of these posts stating that I wasn't searching for divine answers in Aikido.
I mean, I've experienced raw aggression in real life. I've taken kung-fu where the sifu hated the sensei of the karate dojo in town and it was reciprocated and as students we were pretty much caught up in it and when the Western Canadian annual tourneys came to town they sometimes became parking lot brawls. (Real nice regional ambassadors, eh?). As much as I liked Bruce Lee and kung-fu it didn't sit right with me. Now I'm older; maybe wiser; and I discovered Morehei Ueshiba and Aikido.
So do you think you can see my point of view when I say those words?

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 02:08 AM   #46
Eugene Leslie
 
Eugene Leslie's Avatar
Location: Red Deer
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 59
Canada
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post

*snip* It's perfectly okay to be both a "student of Aikido" and an "aikido student," but if you rely on your understanding of Aikido when it is time to learn Aikido, I don't think it works so well.

For example: even "cultivate an empty mind" can simply be another voice in my head that I drag onto the mat with me, that keeps me from seeing, feeling, and doing what really is being shown.
I get it! I never thought of it that way before. Thanks.
Mr. Janczuk briefly touched upon this subject as well earlier in the thread.
I like this site...it keeps me on the straight and narrow.

I almost wish I hadn't taken those other MAs in my life because they do interfere, (and book learning Aikido too I now admit).
I envy the youth in class. (Especially the females, because of the inherent lack of testosterone (good as any word) and ego (as opposed to most males), that have brand new cups to fill and natural flexibility).

Last edited by akiy : 01-07-2010 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Fixed quoting

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 02:39 AM   #47
Linda Eskin
 
Linda Eskin's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of San Diego, San Diego, California
Location: San Diego County, California
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
...

What arrogance! Particularly considering that some members of this forum have 30 years or more daily practice on the tatami….

Reading all these books didn't even teach them one basic thing - what the "Etiquette" is in martial environment. They feel safe insulting others, sitting safely in their bedroom.

No, Linda, as you can see, reading books doesn't do any good. In contrary, it creates false certitude "I know something about aikido".
Arrogance? To say that in addition to practicing I also find value in reading?

Some of the books I have benefitted from were written by members of this forum with decades of experience. I would assume they think reading at least their own books might be worthwhile.

Linda Eskin - Facebook | My AikiBlog

"Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to train." - Morihei Ueshiba
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 03:01 AM   #48
Michael Fitzgerald
Dojo: AikiKai
Location: Canberra
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 41
Australia
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

uh, hey everyone!
I read the first ten or so posts, but thought I'd just jump in. from the OP I get that he basically found that there was a lot more to Aikido in the training than he could see in the watching...well I think that's something everyone can recognise, no? I'm pretty sure you don't need to train for 20 years to see that. (not saying training for 20 years doesn't give a person the opportunity to learn much more than the rank amateur- pls don't get sensitive) having said that, time is no guarantee of wisdom.
so yeah, anyhow, I can see how someone would find that there was much more to an art like Aikido once they started to train.

my personal thoughs on Aikido? well as far as I can go into them now, "there's more than meets the eye, in Aikido" nothing too controversial in that is there..?

Last edited by Michael Fitzgerald : 01-07-2010 at 03:05 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 03:18 AM   #49
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 847
Germany
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Hi
Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Why the sardonic contention?
Sorry, I truly didn't mean to be sardonic!

I just think by practicing aikido you are looking for something which you wouldn't find in most dojo, I know and train. If you can get it in your dojo, that is fine with me.

Quote:
The words "spiritual", "ideals", "vision" and "virtue" were all my limited vocabulary could conjure. - I wrote a disclaimer sentence in one of these posts stating that I wasn't searching for divine answers in Aikido.
Well yes, but the words "spiritual", "ideals", "vision" and "virtue" tend to lead right this direction. So I was asking whether you have a clear understanding of the apple and the tree?

As I said before:
As far as I get you right, I am not sure whether you would find your vision of aikido in the dojo I know. Although we are very peaceful, I think.
But we practice Aikido as a martial art. Like other martial arts. And we sometimes train with student of Kung fu, Kali, Arnis, Boxing, Karate or Judo. There is no difference in "spirituallity" or "wisdom" between them and us. And there is no difference in effectiveness.

I know teachers of Kung fu, of Karate, of Boxing ... who are as wise, as peaceful, as "spiritual" as teachers of aikido I know.
And I know some hot tempered aikido teachers who, I think, wouldn't fit into your image of aikido. But are respected and well known.

And: The more you progress, the more, I think, you will realize what aikido will do to an attacker who isn't used to take ukemi.
Please check how this fits in your thinking about spirituallity or ideals. Aikido is designed to hurt an attacker very badly. Is that the tree, you meant?

Greetings,
Carsten

I mean, I've experienced raw aggression in real life. I've taken kung-fu where the sifu hated the sensei of the karate dojo in town and it was reciprocated and as students we were pretty much caught up in it and when the Western Canadian annual tourneys came to town they sometimes became parking lot brawls. (Real nice regional ambassadors, eh?). As much as I liked Bruce Lee and kung-fu it didn't sit right with me. Now I'm older; maybe wiser; and I discovered Morehei Ueshiba and Aikido.
So do you think you can see my point of view when I say those words?[/quote]
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2010, 07:37 AM   #50
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,827
United_States
Offline
Re: My Own thoughts on Aikido

Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
Really guys? If you disagree w/ me or don't like my comments just say as much. Why the sardonic contention?
I'll cop to the "sardonic" part, but not the "contention". It's a simple statement of fact that until you define your terms, you cannot expect people to comply with them. You stated as follows:

Quote:
Perhaps it is idealism and this is probably closest to the truth: not everyone has the ideals and virtues of Osensei nor should one expect another in Aikido to practice the same ideals of a spiritual giant like him; but they ought to be an example at least....in their tone if not their content....especially the sempai.
So, you expect aikido practitioners to "be an example" of "the ideals and virtues of Osensei". But if you've been reading this board, you know that it's a perennial subject of discussion and disagreement about exactly what O-Sensei was all about, nor is there universal agreement about his virtues. How can you expect people to take these "ideals and virtues" as their model, when we don't have consensus on exactly what they are?

Quote:
The words "spiritual", "ideals", "vision" and "virtue" were all my limited vocabulary could conjure.
Really? Your vocabulary can't come up with the names of any specific virtues or ideals? I don't believe that. It's as if you recommended a restaurant, but when asked what they served, could only say, "Food." That's good to know, but it's not enough information to get me to agree to walk into that restaurant.

Quote:
So do you think you can see my point of view when I say those words?
I think I understand that you're reaching for some kind of "something more". It's a natural human impulse. My only caution would be to take things as they are, rather than as you would have them be.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 03:05 PM
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 05:29 AM
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 122 02-10-2010 05:39 PM
AikiWeb Raffle for Mary Heiny Sensei akiy General 68 05-27-2008 11:37 AM
The tool of resistance in teaching Aikido Marc Abrams Training 18 10-26-2007 10:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:53 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate