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Old 12-24-2009, 01:24 PM   #1
ChrisMoses
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Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Happy Holidays. Jeremy and I shot a quick video the other night and it's up on Youtube.

Have a look here if you so desire.

Please keep these things in mind as you watch the video:

Think of it as a training blog, not an instructional how-to video.

While Jeremy offered some resistance for the "Aikido" versions of the two techniques, please believe me that he offered MUCH more resistance for the Aunkai/frame versions that I then demo. You'll just have to take my word for it, or watch the effect on him through his ukemi.

Realize that I'm showing two different things here, the first sayundo/kokyunage throw is what I would call a training tool, particularly at the speed I'm doing it. It's kind of artificial and more of a partner drill of a solo exercise. Sped up and with a few other changes, it starts to become something more applicable. This should also be clear during the third attempt where I'm talking too much and lose some connections so the technique goes no where. I actually kind of like that I blow that one because it shows the kind of resistance I'm working with and that Jeremy is not looking for where to fall down. In the second demo (iriminage) I would consider what I'm doing more of an applied waza. It's short, fast and not very pretty. With that one, I'm working more with how much decisive juice I can generate through the frame. Again watch how much control Jeremy has in his ukemi with the slower Aikido versions vs. the Aunkai/frame versions.

And finally, for clarity, these should not be looked at as examples of how Ark or Rob would do either of these waza, I was not shown either of them but they are an outgrowth of my ongoing training and experimentation. In other words: if you think it sucks, don't hang that on Rob or Ark, but if you think it's kinda cool, please realize that it's in large part the Aunkai paradigm that brought me there.



Enjoy.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:49 PM   #2
dps
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

That is interesting Chris,

The extending of the back arm ( you called it the cross? ) during the movements is the way I was taught Aikido movements in the early 80's. My sensei then, had trained with Tohei Sensei before his split from the Aikikai.

David
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:15 PM   #3
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Thanks Chris Good Stuff...

I did notice one (what we would consider anyway ) flaw/difference in your basic demo however...All of our movements are executed palm up as though you have a Katana...I hesitate to explain how important this small distinction is( The last time I tried to explain it some of the IMA "experts" here had a field day attacking my posts LOL)... But your own experience in Koryu Tai-Jitsu should illustrate the serious structural flaws in your "framework/structure" with the wrist down... I have not seen too much of Aunkai's Stuff or felt it but I am guessing that he/they might notice it too.

I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido that made it unrealistic to practice and use against other Martial Arts.

I look forward to more of your Demo Vids and Happy Holidays.

William Hazen
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:43 PM   #4
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

very nice. It's very interesting to see how similar the two versions are at their core. I noticed you mention both the aikido versions in terms of "being softer", but to me, they just look like the more pronounced versions we would do early on, until we got a better grasp on how to keep our body alignment and posture correct and also be mindful of Tohei sensei's four principles while in motion. The higher ranks of our organization, and especially Suenaka sensei himself, look much more like the second versions you did, in terms of power and economy of movement, than the first.

Not knowing what your interests are from applying the Aunkai principles into technique, but it would seem that if they were on applying those things back into Aikido it wouldn't be a huge stretch to do so once you had those principles more locked into your body. would you agree or disagree?

thanks again for the post!
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:22 PM   #5
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

"Leverage" at the connection as you describe it is an incorrect way to do gain kuzushi in morotedori saya undo as I was taught it. So if bad aikido is compared with "good" anything else it necessarily suffers in comparison. We do it with extension (down, out, in ( tricksy that one ), sideways, up or whatever) and resultant buckling -- not leverage.

Very interesting, otherwise.

Thanks.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:44 PM   #6
ChrisMoses
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

@ all: the "aikido" versions are posted for context and should not be considered ultimate versions of the techniques but as BASIC versions to present a context for the conversation. Don't put too much into them, I don't know how many basic versions of those two techniques I've seen and done over the years, but to do them all would have been a waste of a memory card.

Also, a big part of the problem with video is the old, "it has to be felt". So much of why what I'm doing in the vid has nothing to do with the specifics of the technique and all about how my body is coordinated. As an old training partner from Aikido (yodan with almost 20 years of Aikido) who recently started training with us when he felt these versions put it, "Holy Sh!t!!!"

@ William: I'm familiar with the Nishio paradigm and it's good. First I think you'd agree that to have done the Nishio style of these techniques would not have offered as generic a starting point as I'd intended since they are fairly unique. Second, I think what Nishio was getting at was a fairly straight forward way to get people to move in a fairly structured way. By keeping the movements of the arms and hand in accord with how an edge would be moved through space, it's pretty easy to get someone to move with more support and power. It's an excellent tool, I use it when teaching Aikido classes (particularly with kaiten nage where the effects can be quite pronounced). I would say however that it's only ONE way to structure the body to generate power.

@ David: Rob has written quite a bit about 'the cross' online, I'd find and re-read his "Messing with TMA" for a better discussion that I'd be able to offer here.

@ Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial genious and we all eagerly await your videos and subsequent seminar series.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #7
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

David,
I did some Tohei/Nishio influenced Aikido in my early days and was taught about the importance of the back arm. What I was never taught in any aikido that I have done was to connect the arms through the the upper cross and keep them connected.
Best
Jeremy

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Old 12-24-2009, 04:23 PM   #8
dps
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
David,
I did some Tohei/Nishio influenced Aikido in my early days and was taught about the importance of the back arm. What I was never taught in any aikido that I have done was to connect the arms through the the upper cross and keep them connected.
Best
Jeremy
Yes, no explanation why but I remember experimenting with it and noticing the difference in the technique's effectiveness with and without the back arm. My sensei taught us to always use both arms, keep hands near your center line and move the your center (one point).

David
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:28 PM   #9
ChrisMoses
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Thanks for the discussion guys.

One thing that's not very apparent in the vids is that the back arm isn't just extended and supporting, but it's actually what's driving the movement. On the one where I pooched it, I let the arm connected to Jeremy do the work, and it fell apart.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:46 PM   #10
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
One thing that's not very apparent in the vids is that the back arm isn't just extended and supporting, but it's actually what's driving the movement.
Thanks for posting the vid!

What you wrote above...something i haven't got to the bottom of.

Did you happen to see
Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
this
. He links to this article by Jarek S. HERE

In it are some things that are... sparking some thoughts. maybe it's interesting to you too.

I'll cut and paste for the lazy..

Quote:
On Joining and Supporting of Yin and Yang

Refining the Shape is not beyond Yin and Yang. How will one practice if Yin and Yang are not clear? The Du Channel in Taoist classics goes along the middle of the back and commands all Yang Channels. Ren Channel goes along the front of the body (Fu, literally: belly) and commands all Yin Channels. That is why back is considered Yang and front of the body is considered Yin. Both channels meet at Hui Yin at the bottom, and at the gums at the top. South and north, they are opposite like midnight and noon. Or like Kan trigram which resides at the center of north, and Li trigram that resides at the center of south, not easy to define.

Bending forward posture is a Yin posture, but it joins Yang Qi and is beneficial to Du Channel. It leads Qi of all Yang channels, and returns completely to the front of the top.

Bending backward posture is a Yang posture, but it joins Yin Qi and is beneficial to Ren Channel. It leads Qi of all Yin channels, and returns completely to the back of the top.
On Moving Qi
The point of contact (Luo Dian) is hard and solid. Fierce and brave, irresistible. (It) relies on Qi of the whole body, but yet (Qi must) concentrate in one place. Nevertheless, it can be used without loss of Qi. It is harmful if Qi is lost or pulled. It means that one does not know the method of Moving Qi (Guo Qi). All Qi of the body has its beginning in the Gate of Life, which is the source of Qi. Qi is manifested in four ends, which fill with Qi. (Qi) flows along (its) paths. Generally (speaking) Qi must not be sluggish nor pulled and only then can flow beneficially (for health), be nimble and unfathomable.

Hence upper Qi is in the bottom, so the bottom (must) not be pulled (e.g. stopped) if (one) wants to move downwards.

Lower Qi is on the top, so the top must not be sluggished if (one) wants to move upwards.

Front Qi is in the back, so the front will naturally enter if (one) smoothens the back.

Back Qi is in the front, so the back will naturally go away if (one) regulates the front.

Left Qi is in the right, so pay attention to the right.

Right Qi is in the left, so pay attention to the left.

For instance, in straight strike with palm, Qi should flow forward. If the other hand is not pulled back by the elbow, (then) Qi is not allowed to flow forward from the back. In upward strike, if the other hand does not insert (e.g. move downward) and shoulder does not drop, (then) Qi is not allowed to flow upward from ribs.

In separating techniques, if the chest does not open, then Qi is not allowed to flow backward. In embracing techniques, if the chest does not open (should be: close), then Qi is not allowed to wrap the front. While rising (Qi), (one) must hook the foot. While falling (Luo) (one) must draw back the crown of the head. Qi of left hand is in the right leg, Qi of right hand is in the left leg. In bending forward posture, tumbling posture and forward exploring posture, lift the heel of the rear foot. In dropping, sink arms. In lifting posture, turn over the feet. In tumbling, do not lift up feet (because you) may hit the ground with (your) head. In kicking do not straighten the leg, (but) consider drawing it back. Expand and strengthen it. All postures are like that.

To summarize it - during contact Qi moves to one place. (However) Qi does not come from one place. Its paths will be smooth only if (you) dredge its source and clear its course. (Your will) suffer from being sluggish (stagnant) or pulled Qi (and you will) not progress unless (you) advance gradually and dig in at every step,
interesting. any other references Thomas? That sounds intriguing. Would like to hear more of the...'rules of functioning'

And this part..which the author feels is.. related.. (/?)

Quote:
On coupling Hardness with Softness
Each posture, within three points, has always one point of contact. Qi, within three extremes, has always one when it is used. This is called (when) revolving, Yin turns into Yin with Yang in-between, and Yang turns into Yang with Yin in-between.

Place of contact is the place where Qi gathers and blood condensates, (to where they) move. Appropriate use of hard method (means) combining Yin and Yang (and) this benefits Qi circulation. Appropriate use of soft method does not go beyond this (either). If using only hard method Qi is seized all over the body, stagnant and not nimble. The point of contact is certainly neither fierce nor brave. If using only soft method, Qi is dispersed and not gathered and there is no place it goes to. Point of contact is not hard nor solid. (When one) should use hardness but (there is still some) softness (at the same time), then Qi does not (completely) concentrate; (When one) should use softness but (there is still some) hardness (at the same time), then Qi does not (completely) disperse.

(This person) has not received the secret of coupling (hardness with softness). Hence (that who is) good at using hardness and softness is like a dragonfly skimming the surface of the water; just touches it lightly and immediately flies upwards. Move Qi like a windmill, rotate and roll (it) without stopping. In this way hardness and softness are used properly. Only then one will not suffer from deficient and not firm, unsmooth, not nimble Qi.
anyone? bueller?

Cheers.
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:13 PM   #11
Howard Popkin
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post

@ Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial genious and we all eagerly await your videos and subsequent seminar series.
Seriously Chris, That might be been some of the funniest stuff I have read, ever.

I owe you a dollar for that. In our dojo, that is the price for a high quality techique or a makimono in sarcasm ryu.

Happy Holidays to all my friends out there on the west coast !

Take care,

Howard

Last edited by akiy : 12-24-2009 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:00 PM   #12
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Quote:
Erick: Yay for you, you've already established that you're a martial genious
Seriously Chris, That might be been some of the funniest stuff I have read, ever.

I owe you a dollar for that. In our dojo, that is the price for a high quality techique or a makimono in sarcasm ryu.
Well, there are better wits than me, surely ..

"Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once."

Evan Esar

"He who wishes to exert a useful influence must be careful to insult nothing. Let him not be troubled by what seems absurd, but concentrate his energies to the creation of what is good. He must not demolish, but build."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Popularity is the one insult I have never suffered."

Oscar Wilde

Merry Christmas -- all the same!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:57 PM   #13
asiawide
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Nice video. The problem is that aikido looks clumsy at first sight when you apply new ideas into aikido. One of my teachers said, 'make it smaller and smaller unitl your partner can't notice it'
If you initiate shintaijuku(right?) when uke grabs your wrist and if it's very small and hard to notice, that's real atemi IMHO. I'm working toward it but still quite hopeless. he he. Personally I'd like to keep Akuzawa secret though he's very much open. But the attitude of 'we also do it' or 'it's also in aikido' make him secret. he he.
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:13 PM   #14
phitruong
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
But your own experience in Koryu Tai-Jitsu should illustrate the serious structural flaws in your "framework/structure" with the wrist down... I have not seen too much of Aunkai's Stuff or felt it but I am guessing that he/they might notice it too.

I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido that made it unrealistic to practice and use against other Martial Arts.

William Hazen
i don't necessary think the wrist down a flaw. i have seen karate raising block using the wrist and the same thing with various Chinese arts. it couldn't be bad, could it? isn't wrist down to send energy up and palm up to send energy down? but then, does it matter whether wrist is down or up? just thinking out loud.

*got to stop thinking altogether. talking about dangerous habit!*
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:40 PM   #15
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i don't necessary think the wrist down a flaw. i have seen karate raising block using the wrist and the same thing with various Chinese arts. it couldn't be bad, could it? isn't wrist down to send energy up and palm up to send energy down? but then, does it matter whether wrist is down or up? just thinking out loud.

*got to stop thinking altogether. talking about dangerous habit!*
It's not a flaw of Aikido Just our Aikido...

William Hazen
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:41 PM   #16
John Connolly
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

I like how you both sorta look like you just woke up and are waiting for the coffee to finish brewing.

It's amazing how much power can be generated by shintaijuku for all kinds of waza...

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Old 12-24-2009, 11:18 PM   #17
Upyu
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I do understand that our Aikido is not mainstream but the wrist down approach is something that Shoji Nishio felt was a fundamental training flaw in Aikido
Thought I'd fill in a couple of things here.
First off, in my book it doesn't really matter whether your palm is up or down when you're actually doing a technique. Different situations call for different shapes etc. Rinkiouhen (or adapt on the fly) as Ark would say.
That being said the reason that the wrist, palm etc are turned down is because during training, you're initially trying to push the upper cross (read stretch across the sternum area) down, and keep it pushed down, pressurizing the tanden.

This eventually teaches the first vertical rotation that occurs within the body, (and more importantly in the tanden) where the front drops, gets pulled down, while pressure rises up the backside. (This is a physical skill, not something that you're supposed to fantasize about)

For "#$#"s and giggles, lets take a simplistic model.
Assuming the arms are connected through the upper cross, let's simplify the issue and look at the arms like they're a rubber hose. This means it has an elastic nature, and if pulled in various directions, will desire to come back to it's original shape.
If you rotate the hose sagitally, so that it turns down the front and up the back (while holding the ends in place) use start to get a very basic form of torque to develop. The direction of the torque also happens to...do something to the arms, but I think I'll let some figure it out for themselves. But it's that local torque (and I want to be clear that the torque I'm describing above is more "local" than whole body) that joins itself naturally to executing the kind of techs that Chris put up.

The same kind of principle is taken to a deeper level, and starts to involve the tanden etc, becoming more whole body as you progress.

That being said, my main point being there's a logic and rhyme to a lot of the "shapes" used, and most of it I think has little do with whether you're holding a weapon or not etc. (That's not meant as a slant towards you William, I'm just trying to illustrate a point).
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Old 12-25-2009, 03:25 AM   #18
Michael Varin
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Christian,

I do thank you for posting the video. Openness is the only way we will advance our art.

But I hope you don't actually think you were working against resitance. Your uke was totally compliant and I can't say that there was any dynamic quality to what you demonstrated.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it's time we start looking at where we are going with our training.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 12-25-2009, 03:43 AM   #19
Upyu
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Christian,

I do thank you for posting the video. Openness is the only way we will advance our art.

But I hope you don't actually think you were working against resitance. Your uke was totally compliant and I can't say that there was any dynamic quality to what you demonstrated.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it's time we start looking at where we are going with our training.
Not that Chris needs defending, but I think it's safe to say that the video was done as such to illustrate the mechanics at work.

If you want someone moving at a faster speed and with more "dynamics" using those mechanics do a search for Aunkai & Akuzawa
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:57 AM   #20
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the vid! Looks good. Would love to get together and compare notes when I make it out there.

Mark
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:07 AM   #21
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

While this probably has little to do with anything but since the thought struck me why not write it down. One thing that struck me was that your footwork and general movement of the core of the body using the shintaijiku adapted movement was very nearly identical to how the late Kawabe Shigeru sensei used to teach that same technique. Although the arm movements are obviously different, he did also clearly teach a clear balanced movement between both arms. With that said, Akuzawa did throw me around much more easily than Kawabe sensei ever did so... (shrugs). Anyways, if nothing else it just shows that at least in some cases, adapting such movement into an aikido context shouldn't be such an issue as some of the general form is still floating around, if somewhat under-used in its potential.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:32 AM   #22
Howard Popkin
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Erick,

Meant no offense, I just thought it was funny. I'm an elementary school teacher and it sounds like the stuff I hear everyday.

Especially the "Yay for you" part.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

As for the dollar Chris, its still coming your way, that was funny

Happy New Year everyone !

Howard
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:18 AM   #23
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Can we define compliant?

Was I attacking with the purpose of demonstrating what was shown?

Yep.

Was it a dynamic, martial encounter......nope....

Come on down sometime and I'll give you the same amount of resistance and ff you throw me I'll buy you a beer and we can have a great laugh about it.

The video was for showing some of that stuff.

Best

Jeremy

..

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:46 AM   #24
Howard Popkin
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Jeremy,
Okay, this is getting expensive. I owe you a dollar also because that was equally as funny

Happy Holidays
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:22 PM   #25
MM
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Re: Short INFORMAL video of some of my stuff (frame based waza)

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Happy Holidays. Jeremy and I shot a quick video the other night and it's up on Youtube.

Have a look here if you so desire.

Please keep these things in mind as you watch the video:

Think of it as a training blog, not an instructional how-to video.

While Jeremy offered some resistance for the "Aikido" versions of the two techniques, please believe me that he offered MUCH more resistance for the Aunkai/frame versions that I then demo. You'll just have to take my word for it, or watch the effect on him through his ukemi.

Realize that I'm showing two different things here, the first sayundo/kokyunage throw is what I would call a training tool, particularly at the speed I'm doing it. It's kind of artificial and more of a partner drill of a solo exercise. Sped up and with a few other changes, it starts to become something more applicable. This should also be clear during the third attempt where I'm talking too much and lose some connections so the technique goes no where. I actually kind of like that I blow that one because it shows the kind of resistance I'm working with and that Jeremy is not looking for where to fall down.
Do you mind going over what you're working on in this part? At a guess, I'd say keeping the spine centered in your body while you move. Keeping slack out of the arms and the arms connected with the upper cross. Do you have contradictory forces going out both arms? Are you working on up/down of the spine, too? Are you using the arm "twisting/turning" to start a sort of torque in the arms?

One of the hard parts is to tell just how much "resistance" Jeremy is giving. Don't take that the wrong way, just saying it's hard to tell from video. IHTBF.

Easier stuff to talk and show in person, I know.

Thanks,
Mark
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