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Old 12-21-2009, 11:33 AM   #51
CarrieP
 
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Re: Pain

A couple thoughts on pain** that may add to the conversation:

I believe that pain can be instructive on the mat.

Take an example from last week. My husband and I were doing a technique that involved atemi, and I (accidentally) punched him in the face.

"I think I jogged him a little too hard."

Thing is, it was actually a good learning experience for both of us.

Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

For me: I was giving a good atemi that had some energy to it. My attacks as Uke are halfway decent, but my atemi are anemic. I never feel comfortable with them and I'm worried about, well, hitting someone. In this case, I actually had some oomph to the atemi, which gave the training a bit more aliveness. I also got a lot less worried about hitting someone. No lasting harm done, the pain was temporary. He didn't even get a bloody nose.

For him: It gave him motivation to get out of the way. He and I are not as dynamic in our training as we could be, and it was a visceral reminder for him to look out!

On the other hand, to rely on pain to do a technique is, IMHO, missing the deeper understanding of the technique. A visiting Sensei did a great demo last week. He demonstrated nikkyo in several different ways. First, with a wrist pin, with the wrist braced on his shoulder (our "basic" nikkyo). second, with the wrist on his forehead. Third, with no wrist pin at all.

During that class, he also said to us, something along these lines:

Sure, using pain** helps with techniques. It gets a person to move where you want them to. Sometimes. Pain can work in taking someone down, but you will eventually run into a person on whom pain doesn't work. They just don't care. And in that case, being able to take the person's balance, with your center, and move them where you want to go, regardless of whether or not you are applying pain, is important.

**Pain in this case meaning the result of applied force to the body/joints, with the possibility of, but not the intent to, seriously injure someone. Not chronic pain, and not pain that is likely to cause serious injury (bone breakage, major muscle/ligament).

Last edited by CarrieP : 12-21-2009 at 11:34 AM. Reason: formatting
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:46 PM   #52
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

Hi
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
...have you ever asked yourself why? ...
I believe the best way to discover it by yourself is to go and practice aikido with different styles\federations.
How come you presume I wouldn't train with different styles of aikido???
Not only I do exactly what you would like me to do.
I even train with people not practicing aikido at all but other martial arts.

Quote:
Then,suddenly you can discover that the usual way of executing techniques is not good anymore. Your techniques are not working anymore.
On the contrary: I exerienced it works quite well.
Again: How come you presume, the techniques wouldn't work???

Quote:
AND - you can feel a good amount of pain when receiving techniques from advanced students.
Students of other styles? Sure!
Advanced students of our style just move me but don't hurt me.
;-) Most of the time ...

Quote:
It is enough if some advanced student (6th dan and more) will 'play heavy Uke' - means he will stop to help you. I'm not talking here about resistance or counters - only being neutral. Try it, and you will discover whole new world, new aikido dimension, where all your present convictions about aikido are meaningless.You will have pain to apply technique and he will feel pain from your application.
Well there are not a lot of 6th dan to train with here in Germany. It's the last but one grading you can get in aikido aikikai as a non-Japanese.

So 6th dan are a little rare to practice with. I'm sorry.
But I know a lot of 5th dan to play around. One of them is my teacher.
Again: How come you presume I didn't experience heavy uke???
My teacher sometimes is singing "I am a rock, I am a mououountain..." when I try to move him. ;-)

Quote:
you will discover whole new world, new aikido dimension, where all your present convictions about aikido are meaningless.
...
You seem to forget what I wrote somewhere above:
I know how to inflict pain. I know how to try to move uke by pain. I know this way of aikido very, very well and practiced it the first 10 to 12 years.
Then I discovered a whole new world, new aikido dimensions.

And I changed or try to change my aikido not because I have become a pacifist or something like that. But because I found technique that does truly work.
(Not only on peple of the same style ...)

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:18 AM   #53
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

Try practicing aikido with non-martial artists. I've done it at a demo for a school. Believe me, you will hurt them, whether you want it or not, because they don't know the right path to take in order to receive a technique painlessly. On the contrary, they will try to stay away from that path as much as possible, since the normal human reflex to pain is to resist.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:13 AM   #54
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
Try practicing aikido with non-martial artists. I've done it at a demo for a school. Believe me, you will hurt them, whether you want it or not, because they don't know the right path to take in order to receive a technique painlessly. On the contrary, they will try to stay away from that path as much as possible, since the normal human reflex to pain is to resist.
I work on a regular base as an instuctor with non-martial artists.

The seminars don't show "normal" self-defense techniques but techniques to de-escalate a physical conflict if possible without hurting the aggressor.

The seminars are meant for staff members who work with mentally disabled persons or persons with psychiatrical disorders or aggressive teenagers ...
The attacks we have to deal with are not very "competent" but very strong and wild. And the people are often heavy.

And In every seminar there is at least one Person who needs to test whether what I teach really works.

I have never hurt anyone.

----------------------

Quote:
... since the normal human reflex to pain is to resist.
Exactly!
So if I know that pain causes resistance, why should I use it as a part of technique?

Although I expect you won't like or won't take it serious here is a short clip of Endo about nikyo ...

Greetings,
Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-22-2009 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:10 AM   #55
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I work on a regular base as an instuctor with non-martial artists.

The seminars don't show "normal" self-defense techniques but techniques to de-escalate a physical conflict if possible without hurting the aggressor.

The seminars are meant for staff members who work with mentally disabled persons or persons with psychiatrical disorders or aggressive teenagers ...
The attacks we have to deal with are not very "competent" but very strong and wild. And the people are often heavy.

And In every seminar there is at least one Person who needs to test whether what I teach really works.

I have never hurt anyone.

----------------------

Exactly!
So if I know that pain causes resistance, why should I use it as a part of technique?

Although I expect you won't like or won't take it serious here is a short clip of Endo about nikyo ...

Greetings,
Carsten
Very instructive video, and I like Endo sensei's aikido a whole lot, to be honest. I went to a seminar of Dirk Müller in Hamburg a month and a half ago and it was an eye opener. I tried to apply some of the things I learned at that seminar at my regular class. They didn't work at all, mainly because we don't train aikido "with two", as Herr Müller does. In fact, control through pain is very much a part of our curriculum. With that I mean that if uke resists (which we all do) he will feel some degree of pain. The advantage of this is that I have learned (and am still learning) to work with heavily resisting people, or people who aren't naturally supple and subsequentially more prone to pain.

On the video: pulling someone against you when his hand is in nikkyo on your body is essentially controlling him through pain.

Last edited by Maarten De Queecker : 12-22-2009 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:10 AM   #56
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
On the contrary, they will try to stay away from that path as much as possible, since the normal human reflex to pain is to resist.
The normal human reflex to pain is not to resist what is causing the pain but to get away from what is causing the pain.

When someone applies sankyo to you do you resist or move to avoid the pain? I avoid the pain.

David
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:44 AM   #57
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The normal human reflex to pain is not to resist what is causing the pain but to get away from what is causing the pain.

When someone applies sankyo to you do you resist or move to avoid the pain? I avoid the pain.

David
I might not be normal... but I actually had to be trained and often have to be reminded to move to avoid the pain in sankyo. Before I began to learn to move, I would not move even when a pin or lock hurt a great deal. In one instance when I was first learning someone was doing kotegaeshi and I would not go down. He said to me "I can make it hurt". And I looked up and said ,"you already are making it hurt.....You don't have my center." Now I know not too bright on my part but I was also not intentionally resisting I just felt no real reason to move, its just how my brain appears to be wired and I had not yet really come to understand how to be a good uke. But of someone gets my center and unbalances me right I'll go down like a sack of bricks. And generally get the "how the heck did I get down here?" feeling right before I start to laugh. When that happens I rarely feel a bit of pain or discomfort.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 12-22-2009 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:34 PM   #58
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The normal human reflex to pain is not to resist what is causing the pain but to get away from what is causing the pain.

When someone applies sankyo to you do you resist or move to avoid the pain? I avoid the pain.

David
Untrained people will stand their ground and do their utmost to resist, in my experience.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:45 PM   #59
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Re: Pain

Hi Maarten.

When you said earlier:

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
[They] don't know the right path to take in order to receive a technique painlessly. On the contrary, they will try to stay away from that path .....
I thought this could mean, alternatively, not moving or moving along a path that leads to more pain and discomfort (for example, from nikyo).

It also seemed to me one reason to move the wrong way might be, as you suggested, to resist.

I also think newer or untrained people sometimes move along the wrong ukemi path because they are trying to escape pain, but either don't know how or, in some cases, simply can't move in the way that minimizes pain (yet).

YMMV

cdh
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:10 PM   #60
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
I also think newer or untrained people sometimes move along the wrong ukemi path because they are trying to escape pain, but either don't know how or, in some cases, simply can't move in the way that minimizes pain (yet).
Hi David,

Not to disparage anything you're saying, but (and this is really addressed to the conversation as a whole) isn't this fairly obvious? Ukemi is a learned skill, it's not something everybody does automatically. Why would we expect J. Random Person to go with the technique? They don't know how.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:40 PM   #61
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
Untrained people will stand their ground and do their utmost to resist, in my experience.
In the few times I have had to use Aikido outside of the dojo against an untrained foe, when the technique was applied they moved away from the pain real fast.

David
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:43 PM   #62
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the few times I have had to use Aikido outside of the dojo against an untrained foe, when the technique was applied they moved away from the pain real fast.

David
Oh well, there's so many people around, some are bound to act differently It is rather hard to escape a nikkyo other than going down or staying up and resisting real hard..

Then again, I'm not the most proficient at sankyo.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:45 PM   #63
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Hi David,

Not to disparage anything you're saying, but (and this is really addressed to the conversation as a whole) isn't this fairly obvious? Ukemi is a learned skill, it's not something everybody does automatically. Why would we expect J. Random Person to go with the technique? They don't know how.
I beg to differ. Everybody knows (or should know) that Chuck Norris can walk that path automatically, while repeatedly roundhousekicking you in the face.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:50 PM   #64
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
I beg to differ. Everybody knows (or should know) that Chuck Norris can walk that path automatically, while repeatedly roundhousekicking you in the face.
....while juggling coconuts dropped by migrating African Sparrows.

David
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:29 PM   #65
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
....while juggling coconuts dropped by migrating African Sparrows.

David
No, african swallows can actually carry coconuts, but there need be two swallows for each coconut.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:09 PM   #66
Janet Rosen
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
I might not be normal... but I actually had to be trained and often have to be reminded to move to avoid the pain in sankyo. Before I began to learn to move, I would not move even when a pin or lock hurt a great deal.
I was the same way as a newbie.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-23-2009, 08:18 AM   #67
C. David Henderson
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Hi David,

Not to disparage anything you're saying, but (and this is really addressed to the conversation as a whole) isn't this fairly obvious? Ukemi is a learned skill, it's not something everybody does automatically. Why would we expect J. Random Person to go with the technique? They don't know how.
Hi Mary,

I'm glad it sounded obvious, actually. The reason I said anything is because it appeared the discussion centered on whether "uke" (if one could use that term loosely) either "resists" (not moving) or "moves" to avoid the pain (not resisting), leaving out what I would guess most of us recall from our own experiences -- moving in the wrong direction (e.g., withdrawing) reflexively.

To me, one of the early interesting lessons from training was learning to act in ways that weren't intuitive and sometimes were physically difficult but had better -- less painful -- outcomes.

Regards,

cdh
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:50 AM   #68
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Re: Pain

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
To me, one of the early interesting lessons from training was learning to act in ways that weren't intuitive and sometimes were physically difficult but had better -- less painful -- outcomes.
Same here -- and I think this kind of connects back to the "old guy endurance" that you mentioned a couple of pages back (I really liked that post btw...in fact, it was one of those posts where I found so much in it that I didn't know where to begin commenting!). Learning how your body works, how it responds, how to differentiate between different signals and form your own set of useful labels for them, all that forms the body of knowledge that makes the "old guy endurance" possible. I haven't yet met anybody who didn't do some of that learning the hard way, as the best move wasn't always the intuitive move.
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:42 PM   #69
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Learning how your body works, how it responds, how to differentiate between different signals and form your own set of useful labels for them, all that forms the body of knowledge that makes the "old guy endurance" possible. I haven't yet met anybody who didn't do some of that learning the hard way, as the best move wasn't always the intuitive move.
Hi Mary,

I agree with both your points.

I don't know if I've written about this before here -- if so, forgive my repetition.

The winter after I graduated from college, I hiked the Napali Coast of Kaua'i. Eleven miles in, at Kalalau beach, there's a waterfall a couple of hundred meters inland. It's the best place to get fresh water, and the only place nearby to take a shower.

Kalalau, by the way, may be one of the most hauntingly beautiful places on Earth. I ended up staying several days after my food ran out, and, like two close friends I first met years afterwards, I had a freak accident while I was there that could have ended up killing me. I'd go back in a heart-beat; so, I suspect, would they.

One morning as I walked up the canyon leading to the falls, a herd of wild goats happened to be grazing in front of me. As I moved forward along the trail, they moved back, towards the cliff face at the head of the canyon.

This will be interesting, I thought.

When we got to the falls, I was amazed to watch the herd scramble up the sheer cliff walls. Then, as I watched, open-mouthed, one-by-one the goats lept across the face of the falls, unerringly finding a foothold on the opposite side. The athleticism and grace of their leaps took my breath away.

The last goat appeared to be old, or perhaps injured, as it was moving more stiffly that the others. As I watched, it reached the spot where the others had leapt, and it paused. It looked carefully at the narrow, thundering column of water in front of it. And then, very carefully, it stepped where the others had lept, unerringly finding a foothold on the opposite side.

That old goat knew it's stuff.

Before reading your comment, I hadn't occasion to remember that for some time. Mahalo.

cdh
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:55 PM   #70
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
Untrained people will stand their ground and do their utmost to resist, in my experience.
I've actually seen this before... in myself. lol I'm a little though.
When I started I stood my ground into the pain. I even went against the force at times. I thought I could find a way out by going towards and over it.....nope, had to go away from it.

Then again I am

MM
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:26 AM   #71
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Re: Pain

Nice discussion. No absolutes in the field of combat, dojo or street.
Yes, some people will try to resist pain and get harder and tougher, specially on drugs and/or booze. Pain compliance just won't work on these people.
Yes, some peoples response to pain is to try to jump away from it, better to have "sticky hands" like Endo sensei than steel clamps which lose their grip.
Yes katame waza can and will hurt, and if necessary disable, but not everyone all of the time.
Yes Aikido works on so disturbing your opponent's (sorry, partner) balance that resistance is not possible, but some people's center is hard to find.
Yes Aikido is easier on the internet than anywhere else ;-)

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:24 PM   #72
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Tongue Re: Pain

Quote:
Dirk Hünniger wrote: View Post
In this little article I would like to discuss pain. Obviously pain is often experienced during an Aikido training. I will list different circumstances under which pain is inflicted by humans on other humans and the inflicters experience their actions as consciously willed. In the end I will try to look at the peculiarities of the situation during an Aikido training. I am a physicist, who read some introductory texts on behavior of humans, but I am definitely not an expert on the subject. By writing this text I hope to make you smile and possibly to make you rethink some generally accepted truths in a critical way, but I clearly have to leave the creation of scientific truth to others. I practice Aikido for a few month now. Since I am German I apologize for possible improper use of the English language. First of all I would like to note that pain is very often avoided in our society. You can go to pharmacy and will be offered a large variety of painkillers but people will look at you strangely when you ask for a pain enhancer. Pain is sometimes observed in medical settings consider a vaccination or a dentist. Usually people argue that they expect an improvement of health in future and experience the pain as unpleasant. So we find people accepting an unpleasant situation now, hoping for a more pleasant one in future. Pain was and sometimes unfortunately is still used in order to modify behavior. Corporal punishment for criminals has been banned in Europe, still other countries like Singapore still use it. Quite recently corporal punishment of children is being banned in Europe too. Although it still takes place, even if prohibited. We also cause a lot of pain to other humans in times of war. Here it is interesting that the inflicter of the pain will often not directly see the consequences of his/her action, such as a pilot launching a rocket. There is also violence between people without the blessing of the government, such as Hooliganism. Here the inflicters of the pain see the suffering of there victims in quite a direct manner and often become victims themselves. Furthermore we find torturing of prisoners, often with at least tacit approval of the government. It has been shown (by the Standford Experiment and the Milgram experiment as well as others) that torture was committed by sane and normal people and any of us is very likely to become a torturer himself/herself when exposed to similar circumstances. We also find pain inflicted during sadomasochistic activities. These are very often described as very pleasant for the sadistic as well as the masochistic partner. Although cases of rape do occur too. There is also prostitution on both sides, in these cases the joy maybe distributed unequally among the partners. We have seen many different situations in which physical pain is caused to us by other humans throughout our lives. There are also a large number of reasons that people give us to explain each of these behaviors. All that makes me think that our tendency to exchange pain with other humans is something deeply human and needs to be accepted as it is. One thing we can do about it is to use it in a way that is nice for each of us. And I think the situation during an Aikido training provides quite a nice lab to learn about that. There is no fighting against a particular group of people like in Hooliganism. The our partner tells us when stop by tapping out unlike in the Milgram experiment or in case of war where a social authority tells us to go on until our victim is dead. Unlike in other styles of martial arts tapping out in Aikido does not result in defeat and thus can be used without that bias on both sides. There is no money involved as in prostitution. There are many people around which makes non consensual activity very unlikely. We change roles and partners very quickly and all of us wear the same clothes. This is opposed to the situation in the Standford experiment as well as in torturing of prisoners, where prisoners were naked and guards were wearing uniforms and the rolls did not change at all. The people inflicting the pain do not carry authority over the people experiencing the pain as in corporal punishment of criminals or children. Finally there is the question if there is a good reason for inflicting this pain. You can argue that you need to learn about the defensive aspects of Aikido and thus need to learn about the pain you inflict on a possible attacker. And this is perfectly acceptable, and there will very likely much more of those good reasons. Still I also often observed people creating quite a strong pain on my body which I enjoyed. The inflicters told me that they liked inflicting this pain on me too. I also observed that I enjoyed creating pain for others and hearing them tell me that they enjoyed the experience too. I also have been told by people that I hurt them too much and shall try to be more careful, and I also have told other to be more careful with me. I also sometimes ask people if they are Ok with the level of pain I create for them and also hear others asking me if the pain they inflict on me is Ok for me.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License.
The author is of this text is Dirk Huenniger born on 22nd October 1980 in Moers, Germany
This text was written on 16th December 2009 in Neukirchen-Vluyn, Germany
ok
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:31 PM   #73
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Patrick Savoie wrote: View Post
ok
There is a old Japanese quote that say " Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield"

Yes , pain will occured as any training will inflict , to have a good balance in the knowlege of your own limit and capability will ease
and reduce the pain/injuries you may experience during training.
Pat
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:33 PM   #74
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

And on the 8th day God invented paragraphs...
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:44 AM   #75
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Re: Pain

Quote:
And on the 8th day God invented paragraphs..


I am such a huge fan of paragraphs....more people should really try using them if they would like other people to actually read their posts.

Back to pain.

Last week I had a fellow student trying to learn the pin for Nikkyo. So I spent a good bit of time patiently lying on the mat while he and sensei played with my arm. Sometimes it hurt quite a lot, but he didn't have the pin. Decided that as long as there was no actual injury occurring that it would be better to allow him try until he found it than to tap out before he did. Needless to say I had a sore arm for a few days. No regrets. Hopefully he was able to benefit.
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