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Old 12-17-2009, 01:07 PM   #26
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Both nikyo and kote gaeshi don't inflict pain the way they are done without inflicting pain.
... of course not. ;-) sorry

... don't inflict pain the way they are done and taught by now. ... try videos of Endo Sensei ...
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:37 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: Pain

As noted by others, living with chronic pain is a whole other animal from treating and rehabbing an acute injury, or from learning to differentiate, on the mat, between essentially benign pain you can relax into (a good pin for example) and pain that signals imminent damage.
The person with chronic pain will likely have good and bad days or even hours, so may seem very inconsistent in the level of training he can tolerate. It does not mean he is lazy or not serious about training.
The person with chronic pain will likely have a highly developed sense of distinguishing between "benign pain" and pain that signals "stop" (my dojo mates know not to grab or hold my thumbs - but I know that if the grab or hold is momentary, while it will hurt like the dickens and I may screech, it is unlikely to actually do further damage).
The most important skill a person with chronic pain can cultivate, IMO, is to learn to accept and integrate the pain as an part of his life: if it is perceived as an entity separate from the person, something to be battled, it actually empowers the pain more than it merits and, paradoxically, can become self-defining. When it is an integral part of life, along with all the other quirks, traits, strength, weaknesses, preferences, etc that comprise a human being, it becomes simply another thing to factor into daily life.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:20 PM   #28
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Re: Pain

@Rosen san - Respect for the last lines. Very well put
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:41 AM   #29
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Re: Pain

hi, back in our high school we learn about beta-endorphins, enkephalins and dynorphins we have the neuroreceptors reacts to what we feel namely pain b`coz our body has a natural painkilling compounds that also bound`d to those receptors.

Choh Li, a chemist named it Endorphin

by jugging 3.2 kilometers a every day it will help your body to increase tolerance w/ pain.

In Aikido we learn from hard work and pain.

Cheers!
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:03 AM   #30
Dirk Hünniger
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Re: Pain

It is interesting that the name "Endorphin" contains the letters "orphin" like in "Morphine". This was intended when creating the name "Endorphin" since it is somewhat similar to "Morphine" in both chemical and metabolic respects. Endorphin can be released in when pain is experienced. So possibly we are having a pleasant experience when relaxing into pain during a pin in Aikido that is similar to the one when smoking opium. Still the problems caused by addiction to opium seem not to be present when doing Aikido. And certainly many other facts are important. So saying we just are addicted to Endorphin is far too simple, but an effect one should consider too.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:30 AM   #31
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Re: Pain

Biochemically speaking im not say`n that im good at it, its just in a manner of a pleasant discussion...... as i proceed Morphine and Heroin, worked really well against pain b`coz the body had receptors that were activated by such drugs.

relating to natural painkilling compounds that also bonded to those receptors, connected to euphoric feelings, exaggeration , appetite, modulation, and d` release of sex hormones.

well IMHO as individual we have difference in d` effect e.g. addiction.

Last edited by Melchizedek : 12-18-2009 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:07 AM   #32
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Re: Pain

What leaves me puzzled is that I feel happy right from the first pin. So that is on the timescale of several seconds up two maybe one minute.
The high caused by Endorphin comes usually 20 minutes to one hour after exposure to pain or running. I think this is a strong counterargument against Endorphin. But maybe there is another chemical involved in this process.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:32 AM   #33
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Re: Pain

Micronutrients, neurotransmitters, usually its how eat.

Biochemistry we can also inherit happiness.

Last edited by Melchizedek : 12-18-2009 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:12 AM   #34
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Re: Pain

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Dirk Hünniger wrote: View Post
It is interesting that the name "Endorphin" contains the letters "orphin" like in "Morphine". This was intended when creating the name "Endorphin" since it is somewhat similar to "Morphine" in both chemical and metabolic respects. Endorphin can be released in when pain is experienced. So possibly we are having a pleasant experience when relaxing into pain during a pin in Aikido that is similar to the one when smoking opium. Still the problems caused by addiction to opium seem not to be present when doing Aikido. And certainly many other facts are important. So saying we just are addicted to Endorphin is far too simple, but an effect one should consider too.
I think it's also too simple because, if I understand correctly, exercise-related endorphin production doesn't just happen as soon as your body is under stress -- it's got to be strenuous and it's got to be prolonged. I suspect that for the large majority of people, the feeling of well-being that they come to experience during exercise, once they've been on an exercise program for a while, is mostly the body's becoming better conditioned and more comfortable with the stresses of exercise. That, plus the other general physical benefits that come from or often accompany an exercise program -- better sleep, improved circulation and respiration, better eating habits -- is more than sufficient to account for exercise starting to "feel better" after you've been doing it for a time.
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:22 PM   #35
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Re: Pain

I'm very much a novice, so I could be wrong, but it seems to me that pain is a necessary element of learning the martial arts. Don't get me wrong; I do think the martial arts in general and aikido in particular can- and should- make us more peaceful people, but this opportunity for peacefulness comes from an understanding of pain and a respect for the capacity to inflict pain. And it seems naive to me to beleve that we can learn these things painlessly.

Once we have these things, we have the unique opportunity to be actively peaceful; it is no act of peace for someone to disdain violence who fears pain and has no capacity to cause it.
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:18 AM   #36
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Pain

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I'm very much a novice, so I could be wrong, but it seems to me that pain is a necessary element of learning the martial arts. Don't get me wrong; I do think the martial arts in general and aikido in particular can- and should- make us more peaceful people, but this opportunity for peacefulness comes from an understanding of pain and a respect for the capacity to inflict pain. And it seems naive to me to beleve that we can learn these things painlessly.

Once we have these things, we have the unique opportunity to be actively peaceful; it is no act of peace for someone to disdain violence who fears pain and has no capacity to cause it.
For a novice, you say incredibly smart things.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:24 AM   #37
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

Hi
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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
... it seems to me that pain is a necessary element of learning the martial arts ... it seems naive to me to beleve that we can learn these things painlessly.
Yes, sure that is true. Pain indeed is part of the way of learning.

But from a certain techniqual level on it's no longer a needed element of good technique. As long es aiki-techniques are concerned.

Learning to deal with pain sure is part of living budo.
But also to be able to deal with and to controll an attacker, whether he reacts to the pain you inflict to him or he ignores it.
To rely on pain is very treacherous.

Quote:
Once we have these things, we have the unique opportunity to be actively peaceful; it is no act of peace for someone to disdain violence who fears pain and has no capacity to cause it.
To rely on pain or not is not a question of being peaceful or not. It's a question of whether your technique works by itself or not (which means ~ has to rely on pain.)

In our dojo we some sayings like: "Well, your technique hurt's like hell. But it doesn't work." Or "I only had to move because of pain. It wasn't your technique that move me."

If you once have moved and controlled a drunken person or drug addicted person or even a mentally disabled person who all of them have a pain tolerance not comparable to what you experience in the dojo, you might understand, what I mean. No question of being peacefull. Just a question of what works and what does not.

Greetings,
Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-20-2009 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:42 AM   #38
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

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Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
For a novice, you say incredibly smart things.
Please excuse me. I don't want to offend anyone. Really.

I think understanding (or in my eyes misinterpreting) pain as an element of aiki-technique is more something you do on a beginners level then on an advanced level.
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:24 AM   #39
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Re: Pain

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Please excuse me. I don't want to offend anyone. Really.

I think understanding (or in my eyes misinterpreting) pain as an element of aiki-technique is more something you do on a beginners level then on an advanced level.
You do not offend me (wouldn't know why? Opinions differ, but that's no reason for me to be insulted!)

Pain is an element of aikido. Aikido techniques can be incredibly destructive (ikkyo: breaks the arm, knee to the face; irimi nage: smash the skull on to the floor, elbow to the face; shiho nage: break someone's back etc etc). After all, these techniques used to be effective on a battle field.

I think it really depends on which style of aikido you train. Where I train, we don't go soft on eachother. If an execution of a technique doesn't feel right, we won't go down. Attacks are attacks, if they hit, it'll hurt. I've seen aikido video's on youtube where people seem to dance more than they are practicing a martial art. This can be very good if you want to do a harmonizing exercise, but the real-life applicability is zero.

I don't practice aikido to learn how to fight, mind you. I hate violence as much as the next guy. Still, I am studying a martial art, not fitness or yoga. Pain is a part of that, as is learning how to deal with it.

The reason I think like this about pain in aikido is probably due to the background of one of my teachers: one is a 7th dan in Jiu Jitsu (and 4th in aikido), and believe me, you do not want to try and resist his wrist locks.
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:01 AM   #40
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Re: Pain

So what you're saying is that, while pain is a necessary element of learning the martial arts, properly performed aikido techniques need not rely on pain to acheive their desired ends?

Assuming I am understanding you correctly, how do wrist locks fit into this view of aikido?
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:12 AM   #41
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Re: Pain

The way I have so far experienced and understand it. Wrist, and other joint, locks work just fine without pain having to be there. that's why they are called locks. Ideally the pin locks up the joints in such a way as to make it difficult if not impossible for Uke to move. If Uke does attempt to move and resist the pain is actually applied by him, to himself, and not by nage.
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Old 12-20-2009, 12:41 PM   #42
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Pain

Hi
Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
... Assuming I am understanding you correctly, how do wrist locks fit into this view of aikido?
The way we unsterstand and try to practice it, the wristlocks (as other locks and techniques) don't work only on the actual joint.
But through the joint, on the center of the partner.
This can be done using simple mechanics or in other words using the stucture of the human body.

@ Maarten:
I don't think that our different views depend on our teachers. My teacher of Aikido also practices yawara.
And you describe your practice exactly the way we also do it.

But well ok: If Tissiers Aikido in your eyes is only dancing it can't be helped. So be it.
Only important for me is, whether or not it works.

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 12-20-2009, 02:18 PM   #43
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Re: Pain

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
The way I have so far experienced and understand it. Wrist, and other joint, locks work just fine without pain having to be there. that's why they are called locks. Ideally the pin locks up the joints in such a way as to make it difficult if not impossible for Uke to move. If Uke does attempt to move and resist the pain is actually applied by him, to himself, and not by nage.
Then let me ammend my statement. The thinking is that properly performed aikido techniques need not be painful to be successful when performed in a dojo on a properly compliant uke?
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:02 PM   #44
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Assuming I am understanding you correctly, how do wrist locks fit into this view of aikido?
I think the key is the word itself: it is not wrist pain or wrist hurt, but wrist lock. If you very slowly apply and study the body mechanics, a properly applied wrist lock will progressively move up the body, locking the elbow, locking and raising the shoulder, and connecting to the person's center. It will only HURT if the person moves against it rather than with it.

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Old 12-20-2009, 08:13 PM   #45
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Re: Pain

Thank you Janet. Right... LOCK... need not mean pain must be there for it to be effective. Matt yes and to a properly compliant Uke outside the dojo as well. Actually in the dojo I like for my partners to sometimes apply the lock tot he point of pain compliance so that I can fully experience the technique and so that they can be sure that if they were to need it they could get it.

What I'm saying is what others have said. Pain is in addition to an already effective technique, when it becomes necessary... with a non-compliant uke .

The technique should not rely on pain to be effective. For instance Yonkyo simply does not work well on me on my right side. I have a fellow student who it does not work on at all. And I've had locks put on me that totally dropped and/or immobilized me without me feeling the least bit of pain. And I am not always a "properly compliant" Uke. Since I am still learning, and since I have fellow students and a couple of senseis who like having me set up and give some resistance form time to time.
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:40 AM   #46
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Please excuse me. I don't want to offend anyone. Really.

I think understanding (or in my eyes misinterpreting) pain as an element of aiki-technique is more something you do on a beginners level then on an advanced level.
,
Hello Carsten,
This observation may be true, but have you ever asked yourself why? What is The Reason from bio-mechanical point of view?

I believe the best way to discover it by yourself is to go and practice aikido with different styles\federations. Then,suddenly you can discover that the usual way of executing techniques is not good anymore. Your techniques are not working anymore. AND - you can feel a good amount of pain when receiving techniques from advanced students.

My opinion is that more you practice, more perfectly you learn how to anticipate a technique as a Uke to avoid an injury and PAIN. In the other hand Nage is protecting you, and he does it much better when he is advanced student.
So in the end you get an illusion that pain is not needed. It is enough if some advanced student (6th dan and more) will 'play heavy Uke' - means he will stop to help you. I'm not talking here about resistance or counters - only being neutral. Try it, and you will discover whole new world, new aikido dimension, where all your present convictions about aikido are meaningless.You will have pain to apply technique and he will feel pain from your application.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 12-21-2009 at 06:44 AM.

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Old 12-21-2009, 07:20 AM   #47
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Re: Pain

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My opinion is that more you practice, more perfectly you learn how to anticipate a technique as a Uke to avoid an injury and PAIN. In the other hand Nage is protecting you, and he does it much better when he is advanced student.
Excellent observation.

Aikido applied to some one who is not trained in ukemi is very painful.

David

Last edited by dps : 12-21-2009 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:39 AM   #48
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Re: Pain

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
,
Hello Carsten,
This observation may be true, but have you ever asked yourself why? What is The Reason from bio-mechanical point of view?

I believe the best way to discover it by yourself is to go and practice aikido with different styles\federations. Then,suddenly you can discover that the usual way of executing techniques is not good anymore. Your techniques are not working anymore. AND - you can feel a good amount of pain when receiving techniques from advanced students.

My opinion is that more you practice, more perfectly you learn how to anticipate a technique as a Uke to avoid an injury and PAIN. In the other hand Nage is protecting you, and he does it much better when he is advanced student.
So in the end you get an illusion that pain is not needed. It is enough if some advanced student (6th dan and more) will 'play heavy Uke' - means he will stop to help you. I'm not talking here about resistance or counters - only being neutral. Try it, and you will discover whole new world, new aikido dimension, where all your present convictions about aikido are meaningless.You will have pain to apply technique and he will feel pain from your application.
This is what I meant.. I just couldn't find the right words for it. Thanks mr. Szczepan!
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:05 AM   #49
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Re: Pain

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
,
My opinion is that more you practice, more perfectly you learn how to anticipate a technique as a Uke to avoid an injury and PAIN. In the other hand Nage is protecting you, and he does it much better when he is advanced student.
So in the end you get an illusion that pain is not needed.
A very good point I think.
In training the nage drives the uke through a "path" in time and space from the initial attack to the final pin or projection. A good nage will be a skillful driver and a good uke will recognize the path that she needs to travel with the understanding that a world of pain awaits her outside of that path. That is the same sensitivity that will allow the uke to reverse the technique she recognize a "gap" in the path

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Old 12-21-2009, 10:13 AM   #50
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Re: Pain

Nice series of posts. Thanks.
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