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Old 10-14-2009, 02:51 PM   #201
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: What is "IT"?

Resistence in the truest form is he works his sh*t, you work yours, and who ever comes out on top, well, they come out on top.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:04 PM   #202
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
I would suggest that what many people in Aikido(tm) think when they hear "resistance" is "grab 'em really hard and don't let 'em move."
I would suggest that with some training that would no longer be possible. I've not met the Aikido or DR teacher capable of preventing me or some of the guys I have trained from moving. Nor have I seen anything on film to lead me to believe any teacher capable of that feat exists in the Aiki arts. More important though is the reasons why. It isn't about individuals, it's about the development of these skills, about exhaustive research and developing the body to the point that your aiki cannot be stopped, except by profoundly well skilled men.
Where is that type of training to be found?
Where are there people who have a vested interest in making you extremely powerful. And also have an actual methodology and interest in making that happen with a track record to prove it, in relatively short time frames compared to the twenty-year method?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-14-2009 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:18 PM   #203
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Resistence in the truest form is he works his sh*t, you work yours, and who ever comes out on top, well, they come out on top.

Best,
Ron
Hi Bud
That really doesn't cover it though. The best thing is someone who is better than you challenging your sh*t with his and them being capable of showing you how to handle their sh*t. Then finding teachers with better sh*t!! Otherwise your sh*t remains stagnant and attached to your teachers limits!
Everyone looks as their teacher as woo woo! In examining investment in the Martial arts it better to wait ten years to find a good teacher then spend five with the wrong one.
Some methods to train aiki are just simply superior to others.
Hope to see you soon. I will be in P.A. in Dec and Atlanta in Jan.
Cheers'
Dan
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:33 PM   #204
JangChoe
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Bud
That really doesn't cover it though. The best thing is someone who is better than you challenging your sh*t with his and them being capable of showing you how to handle their sh*t. Then finding teachers with better sh*t!! Otherwise your sh*t remains stagnant and attached to your teachers limits!
Everyone looks as their teacher as woo woo! In examining investment in the Martial arts it better to wait ten years to find a good teacher then spend five with the wrong one.
Some methods to train aiki are just simply superior to others.
Hope to see you soon. I will be in P.A. in Dec and Atlanta in Jan.
Cheers'
Dan
Hey Dan, I would like to meet you when you're in Atlanta. Me, David Orange, and a couple of other ppl meet occasionally to practice IMA. Hopefully you'll have time to meet and play with us.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:07 PM   #205
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hello
We'll have to talk shoot me a P.M.
I am only interested in a very small group and it's going to be all work, not a dog and pony show. I hate being "that" guy, it's why I eloped. I have my own list of people to talk to first.
I will organize through David.
Dan
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:09 PM   #206
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello
We'll have to talk shoot me a P.M.
I am only interested in a very small group and it's going to be all work, not a dog and pony show. I hate being "that" guy, it's why I eloped. I have my own list of people to talk to first.
I will organize through David.
Dan
Dan, it will be my pleasure to pull this together but I did suggest to my small circle (who are all more advanced than I) that they let you know of their interest in joining for that meet-up. Jang, in particular knows Atlanta inside-out and also has a knack for getting good training locations. He's a hard-working man who has a lot of experience with both Mike and Ark and has organized a lot of group trainings over there. You're going to like him.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:19 PM   #207
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Where is that type of training to be found?
Where are there people who have a vested interest in making you extremely powerful. And also have an actual methodology and interest in making that happen with a track record to prove it, in relatively short time frames compared to the twenty-year method?

Cheers
Dan
Dan,
Names and locations would be most appreciated.
Ricky
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:20 PM   #208
HL1978
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What sort of engineering? It has aided mine. My background is in aerodynamics and architectural structure -- hands on applied rather than purely conceptual. My own design-built treehouse, fwiw, survived two direct hit Cat 3 hurricanes, the first of which topped or toppled fifteen mature trees in my yard -- so my structural and dynamic intuition is hardly idle. Shear mechanics, shifting moments and rotations and resonance are my background -- and are key focus of my observation and effort on these topics -- Their neuro-muscular relationship to spinal reflex arcs is a point I have only recently uncovered.
Electrical, took all of the required statics, physics, thermodynamics, materials etc. I spent some time in power distribution, so there is plenty of crossover into the civil engineering side. On the biological side of things, I am a layman with an interest in the subject, nothing more.

I'm also reviewing for the PE exam, so its a nice refresher on a lot of topics I haven't dealt with in 10 years or so.

Quote:
I tend to agree but that is why I've done that. But why should we not seek to visualize the feel according to the proper mechanics ?

edited

It may or may not help you, but that does not mean it is not there.
I know you have flight experience, so the following should relate as well. I am an avid performance driving enthusiast, so I go to the track etc. Most driving schools include a classroom portion where with the aide of middle school level physics they describe what happens to your car when you corner, and what happens when things go wrong.

Calculating the mathematics, or understanding the theory to know when things go correct, or when things go wrong is great, but they don't aide very much while in actual practice. They are quite useful if one's goal is to understand the complex interactions of an object interacting with surrounding objects.

To give an automotive example, recognizing when I have lifted too much off the accelerator pedal causing a spin rather than enough weight transfer to rotate the car so I can make it around the corner faster. Of course if you have the instructor in the car with you, they can can tell the student driver via middle school physics, "oh, the combination of an abrupt weight shift from the rear to the front of the car, coupled with the slip angle for your particular tire, and the reduced contact patch on your outside tyres is going to make you spin right now, time to clutch in and brake hard!"

Or you could simply say as the student is beginning to lift too much, "don't lift." The same applies when developing internal skills, when someone can recognize the sensation of when its right and when its wrong and use the sensation/feedback to develop the skill.
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:52 PM   #209
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Electrical, took all of the required statics, physics, thermodynamics, materials etc. I spent some time in power distribution, so there is plenty of crossover into the civil engineering side. On the biological side of things, I am a layman with an interest in the subject, nothing more.

I'm also reviewing for the PE exam, so its a nice refresher on a lot of topics I haven't dealt with in 10 years or so.
BS in Physics with a minor in applied Mathematics, then went back to school with a pre-med focus intending to get into Physical Therapy. Then got offered another IT job and had kids...

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I know you have flight experience, so the following should relate as well. I am an avid performance driving enthusiast, so I go to the track etc. Most driving schools include a classroom portion where with the aide of middle school level physics they describe what happens to your car when you corner, and what happens when things go wrong.
Great analogy. I do trackdays on my motorcycle and they run with a similar format. Basic physics so that you have a reason to do what the instructors are telling you and then repeated excursions to the track to try and make your body do it. Very much like the bodyskill stuff I've been working on, you often feel like you are doing a better job than you are and need someone to give you feedback. You also need to get over your body telling you that what you know you ought to do is a VERY BAD IDEA. Our brains are wired to think we are falling after we lean about 15 degrees from vertical. My streetbike tires are good for about 50 degrees of lean once warm and that's not even including the additional center of mass effective lean angle from getting off the bike. That's a long way from where your brain is telling you you're over too far and where you've even gotten near the limit of what you're capable of. You can KNOW this fact, know that you are well within your lean angle limits, you can do the math, trust the calculations, you can even get passed by guys leaned over further, going faster than you are and STILL not be able to get your brain and body to push any more. Theory is great, but it's not a ticket to accomplishment.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:10 PM   #210
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Calculating the mathematics, or understanding the theory to know when things go correct, or when things go wrong is great, but they don't aide very much while in actual practice. They are quite useful if one's goal is to understand the complex interactions of an object interacting with surrounding objects.
My goal is quite a bit simpler -- defining images and proper actions of correct physical models. Metaphorical models try to capture "feel" -- perceptive categories. That approach may, but more often, does not, adequately capture the ACTUAL mechanical action occurring. Unlike driving, flying gives one a perspective that is also operative in aikido -- counter-intuitive 3D kinesthetic perceptions that are a feature (not a bug) of the mechanics involved. The result is that a bad metaphor creates a bad image for intuition to operate on. A correct mechanical image allow proper structural intuition to function correctly.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
To give an automotive example, recognizing when I have lifted too much off the accelerator pedal causing a spin rather than enough weight transfer to rotate the car so I can make it around the corner faster. Of course if you have the instructor in the car with you, they can can tell the student driver via middle school physics, "oh, the combination of an abrupt weight shift from the rear to the front of the car, coupled with the slip angle for your particular tire, and the reduced contact patch on your outside tyres is going to make you spin right now, time to clutch in and brake hard!"
Of course not, but they help immensely in two VERY important ways --

1) They give one a categorical vocabulary to define and understand the error after it occurs and therefore narrow the corrective or misperceived input that caused it

2) They provide ways to envision how to move correctly in novel situations that one has not even encountered yet -- and then train the action in those situations

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Or you could simply say as the student is beginning to lift too much, "don't lift." The same applies when developing internal skills, when someone can recognize the sensation of when its right and when its wrong and use the sensation/feedback to develop the skill.
I agree. Don't lift - shear. The feel and feedback are great, and to be pursued -- but intuition only works if patterns of action and perception are reflective of a objective template of reality and not the trickier perception of reality.

An airplane in a slip is not turning; but if I blindfolded you, you would swear it was. In a constant rate level turn, blindfolded you would swear the aircraft is not turning; and it is. The action of what we are talking about works, among other things explicitly on extensor and flexor spinal reflexes, almost autonomic in action -- essentially causing the affected body to destabilize itself -- before it is actually structurally compromise, opening it to an unrecoverable departure from stability. The mechanism of applying it is related to the effect created. The possibilities for intuitive misperception are therefore every rich -- reinforcing the need for a correct objective model as a template for our structural intuition.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:42 PM   #211
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
You also need to get over your body telling you that what you know you ought to do is a VERY BAD IDEA. Our brains are wired to think we are falling after we lean about 15 degrees from vertical.
Only the visual and vestibular systems. Proprioceptive systems are faster, more sensitive and less concerned with positional deviation. Training is necessary to force the body to rely on the most reliable perceptive system in the physical circumstance, and disregard those that are dissonant. In flight, that means disregarding your "seat of the pants" and trusting visual inputs, initially, and then you learn to re configure the dissonant inputs in a special setting.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
My streetbike tires are good for about 50 degrees of lean once warm and that's not even including the additional center of mass effective lean angle from getting off the bike. That's a long way from where your brain is telling you you're over too far and where you've even gotten near the limit of what you're capable of. You can KNOW this fact, know that you are well within your lean angle limits, you can do the math, trust the calculations, you can even get passed by guys leaned over further, going faster than you are and STILL not be able to get your brain and body to push any more. Theory is great, but it's not a ticket to accomplishment.
But only objective theory will tell you how to ultimately resolve dissonant inputs into the objective framework for action. And you have to depart those limits over and over again to learn how close you can come before corrective is impossible. Until you lay the bike over a few times you will never truly know how far you can trust your perception to take it. For obvious reasons you shouldn't do that at full-speed -- but by all means you MUST take it at low speeds to where the back end starts to go and then correct-- and keep working that that dynamic upward in speed as your perception scales itself to the boundary conditions of the objective performance of the machine. What theory -- and ONLY theory can tell you is how tight a turn and line of entry at a relatively LOW speed you must take to enter the stability boundary you are trying to (safely) explore. Once you begin to learn that departure pattern at various speeds the structural intuition comes into play and predicts a pattern for a speed or entry line you have not yet attempted.

The body is no different. When nikkyo is applied, the body is dropping looking for a stability it has not lost before the mind knows it has happened. When sankyo is applied his body is rising in search of a stability it has not lost-- the minid is a late player in this game. Uke learns oodles from this -- if he is paying attention and has been given the categorical tools to tell him what to note as it occurs. Aikido is both using the proprioceptive mechanisms to sense the opponent's structural state (kokyu tanden ho) and triggering the operative elements of that same system to create destablizing access to enter and then accelerate departure from stability. In action, it is using those same structural systems to move more effectively itself.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-15-2009 at 10:50 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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