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Old 10-05-2009, 11:52 AM   #126
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Oh, that is rich. My comment reasonably criticizing using nameless shihans in nameless videos to defame countless persons, is rebutted by a nameless secret vetter showing I do not know -- what, specifically and exactly? What did we train ? What made it the be-all app-killer test?
That's the whole point, Erick. If you had been training with the methods of IT and IS, you would understand that no particular "be-all app-killer test" is necessary to know whether you have the skills. Just a moment of hands-on interaction tells the whole story very quickly. For people who have the skills, you can immediately feel things happening in their bodies as they let you put all your force directly into the ground and they keep all their force balanced within their own bodies. And then you can instantly feel the effect of that action rebounding into your own body in a way you cannot reconcile or balance, so that it puts you off balance and maybe off your feet or on the ground.

For years, these two claims have been going around about IT: 1) it has to be felt; and 2) if you have a bit of experience in IT, you can recognize in people's written comments that they don't have it.

So we have one report of someone who has felt IT from some of the most major proponents, who also felt your power and confirmed that you don't have it. So by "IHTBF", we're told you don't have it.

Second, people have been telling you for months or years that, based on your comments, you appear to have no understanding of the topic.

So to answer your own #1 question "What's the be-all app-killer test?", you need to stop posting explanations of this topic you don't understand and get out and apply your test to people who are recognized to have the goods. Not that you're not a nice guy, but you do need that experience before you ought to comment more.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
No, instead of answering the very basic concern about making a criticism of classes of people specific (and therefore rebuttable), David decided that I "seem" to not say what these guys say, because I don't talk like them -- that is -- I choose not to imitate the group.
Of course, the only reason I don't drive a Bentley is that I don't want to imitate the group of people who have the money to afford one. Of course, I have the money. Take my word for it. I just want to drive a 20 year old Corolla...

Actually, I'd rather drive the Corolla than make a car payment each month, but the real truth is, I don't have the money for a Bentley.

So you see where this is going?

It's not important for you to "imitate" the group with IS skills. If you really have the skills and you want to talk about them in different terms, that's one thing. But if you're using different terms because you really don't understand what's being described, you shouldn't get defensive when people point up the holes in your stories.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am, quite clearly, and quite specifically trying to describe things in different and more concrete terms.
But again, no matter how concrete your terms are, you're not describing the same things Mike, Dan and Rob are. And a hands-on report tells us that you're not doing what they do. So you must be describing what you do instead of what they do. Your problem is just that you really don't realize that you're not doing the same as they are.

So the descriptions, while possibly very relevant to what you are doing, are irrelevant to this discussion of Internal Training.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:15 PM   #127
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
But, I think it is unfair to say essentially my thing is better than yours, and other harsh criticisms I read. But what can you do?
You can know going in whether you have actual "gold" or just a "gold-plated" piece of tin. Or maybe it's not even gold-plated, but just gold painted.

Or maybe it's just a piece of yellow tin.

When you go to the pawn shop with that, do you complain because the guy doesn't value your yellow tin as highly as he values the 14c gold another guy brought in?

Has is it ever occurred to you that maybe what you have is really less valuable than someone who has put in decades of training at the highest levels?

You should ponder that for awhile.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:04 PM   #128
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hi Dave
Eric has never once described anything I am doing or knows how to do it. And even once told me that he acutally does but -I- don't understand his models...I find it all hilarious, and have never taken his discussion points serously. But other than that, I like him.

Speaking from personal experience (as I have never felt Mike or Rob). For me its the same old thing; one hundred thousand words that all end with a single word in person ..."Duh!" Once they feel it and either end up being totally owned or end up on their ass over and over and over. There is simply no more debate. Has anyone from anywhere, of any rank, from any art, from shodan to Shihan from sho mokuroku to Menkyo having trained with me care to debate this topic anymore? Now lets add in ICMA teachers who openly dismissed the Japanese arts as having anything of "depth" and never will again. Now you have a bunch of these guys coming on line and stating this is the aiki in aikido, and Daito ryu.
What's that proverb "A word to the wise is sufficient." I'll leave out the other half of it!!.
Is there any reason to listen to these two and even respond to a single post when all they do is go on and on about nothing.

We all knew Eric had nothing to contribute to this topic. Did anyone really need it "confirmed?" I mean...really? Come on guys. You guys are the ones who continue to talk to these people. With Mr. Burgess now stating "Everyone has IP!" I mean its positively comical. Why bother? Do we really need it "confirmed" that he has nothing to offer either?

They are hold outs from the past; I refer back to Dave Lowry in Autumn lIghting
"In the changing of the times, they are like Autumn lighting. A thing out of season. Bringing an empty promise of rain, on fields already bare."
These two are examples of an aikido that will sooner or later die out. Let them live out the fantasy that they have any part in a discussion of aiki at all. We all need Uke's.
In the mean time it is best to hold the door open even if they can't. Sooner of later their "Duh" moment will arrive.

There is an interesting parable about a king. His people all drank from a well that went bad and they went insane. The king had his own well. In time, the people who went mad, rose up against the King, claiming "Our king has lost his mind we must remove him." Hearing this, the king snuck out that night and drank from the well and went mad. Later, all the people rejoiced, shouting "Look! Our king had regained his sanity."

Lets leave the door open. In my opinion its only a matter of time. Everyone who has felt real aiki wants it. One...by one...by one. Aikido is going to change.

So how is the training coming along. I am going to be in Atlanta in Jan visiting family -want to meet up? Maybe we can get Eric to come!!
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-05-2009 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:06 PM   #129
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
That's the whole point, Erick. If you had been training with the methods of IT and IS, you would understand that no particular "be-all app-killer test" is necessary to know whether you have the skills.
Just so. Just so.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
that action rebounding into your own body in a way you cannot reconcile or balance, so that it puts you off balance and maybe off your feet or on the ground.
Yes. I know what that is and what it is doing to you, and how. Can do it, too -- within bounds broad enough to understand what it is and how it works, and how to show it to others. It can be managed, also. BTW. Like anything. Degree? I have no idea nor any concern one way or the other. I am not getting out the sixth appendage tape measure, so don't bother.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So we have one report of someone who has felt IT from some of the most major proponents, who also felt your power and confirmed that you don't have it. So by "IHTBF", we're told you don't have it.
Ah. So I cannot know from physical description and my own experience that what I am talking about is the same as what they are talking about but you can say that it is definitively not. No, you don't have that report. You have an enthusiastic acolyte (nothing wrong with that) over-asserting something he says was told by someone he claims said something he won't specify and who won't back him up. I know; the "source' in question volunteered the disavowal to me personally. Point is we weren't doing what Lorel wanted us to have done, but there you are. It was good, all the same.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
... apply your test to people who are recognized to have the goods.
What test? I have a test? Somebody -- quick -- tell me what it was! What I have is a bio-mechanical description. As for Ark and Mike, I don't have to guess -- I can see it -- in precisely my terms, though in rather different flavors of application, quite plainly.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
.., If you really have the skills and you want to talk about them in different terms, that's one thing. But if you're using different terms because you really don't understand what's being described, you shouldn't get defensive when people point up the holes in your stories. ... But again, no matter how concrete your terms are, you're not describing the same things Mike, Dan and Rob are.
You need to make up your mind which set of assumptions you wish to argue from, because they are simply that -- assumptions.

If I did not provoke your criticism, I would not be doing anything useful anyway, but constructive criticism is better than simply assuming that you know what I must not know simply because you DON'T understand what I am talking about. It does not follow.

The better approach would be to take me on -- with your experience of these gentlemen on these matters -- and demonstrate WHY it is that you assert that what I speak of cannot be the same as what you have experienced. We could all learn something from that. Asserting it is not the same as explaining it. And "Shut up, now, (please)" is somewhat lacking in explanatory power.



The more important question is why anyone would WANT to have the conversation limited to a certain set of concepts or terminology, and be opposed to a terminology that, being generally applicable, is not within their control. That is the more interesting question.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-05-2009 at 01:09 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:29 PM   #130
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

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The more important question is why anyone would WANT to have the conversation limited to a certain set of concepts or terminology, and be opposed to a terminology that, being generally applicable, is not within their control. That is the more interesting question.
Because the discussion is about skill-not rhetoric. Making things artificially complex to mask a profound ignorance of the topic is utterly transparent to everyone-or most everyone here.

So another interesting question is why -you- may be the only one who can't see that.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:26 PM   #131
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric has never once described anything I am doing or knows how to do it. And even once told me that he acutally does but -I- don't understand his models...I find it all hilarious, and have never taken his discussion points serously. But other than that, I like him.
Erick has been nice and supportive of me before and I regret having been less nice than necessary in some earlier posts. But it's like watching someone try to find the strings on a flute so they can play it like a guitar--or trying to figure out where to blow on a guitar to make it sound like a saxophone. You just have to say something after awhile.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So how is the training coming along. I am going to be in Atlanta in Jan visiting family -want to meet up? Maybe we can get Eric to come!!
I'll be there. Just say when and where. And I wish Erick would hop on up, as well. It would be a great opportunity to put all questions to rest, have some eye-opening moments and a lot of great laughs. I'll look forward to January!

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:43 PM   #132
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
So I cannot know from physical description and my own experience that what I am talking about is the same as what they are talking about but you can say that it is definitively not. No, you don't have that report....
The guy has felt top people and he has felt you and he advises that there is nothing in your approach that even resembles what Dan, Mike, Ark and Rob are doing--in other words, they have IT and you don't.

Now, that fellow has felt them and he has felt you.

You, on the other hand, have not felt Mike, Dan or Ark, but you assure me that you do have the same thing they have, though someone who has felt them says you don't.

I don't know, Erick. You make it very hard to believe you.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If I did not provoke your criticism, I would not be doing anything useful anyway, but constructive criticism is better than simply assuming that you know what I must not know simply because you DON'T understand what I am talking about. It does not follow.
Erick, what Mike, Dan, Ark and Rob are all doing is all rather different, but it does follow the same outlines--like an American jet pilot, a Russian jet pilot and a Chinese jet pilot will all be working with the universal principles of aerodynamics, but each with the peculiarities of his own country's military, engineering and other types of cultures thrown in. Even with that, all these pilots could get together and talk about jet-piloting with a "non-jet-pilot" and all of them would be able to tell very quickly which one of them is the "non-pilot."

And so it is here. It's not just that you're saying "different" things: you're saying things that just are not relevant to the topic and which are very misleading to the real approach taken by those with the real skills.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The better approach would be to take me on -- with your experience of these gentlemen on these matters -- and demonstrate WHY it is that you assert that what I speak of cannot be the same as what you have experienced.
Just re-read the statement above: "It's not just that you're saying "different" things: you're saying things that just are not relevant to the topic and which are very misleading to the real approach taken by those with the real skills."

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The more important question is why anyone would WANT to have the conversation limited to a certain set of concepts or terminology, and be opposed to a terminology that, being generally applicable, is not within their control. That is the more interesting question.
Well, go sit down with two or three jet fighter pilots and come into their conversation trying to convince them that the methods and tactics of helicopter flying are exactly the same as those of aerial combat in an F-16. And then ask them "why anyone would WANT to have the conversation limited to a certain set of concepts or terminology, and be opposed to a terminology that, being generally applicable, is not within their control."

I'm sure they'll tell you that what you say is fine within your limits, but irrelevant to what they are discussing. Would you find it a fault in them to do so?

I'm guessing you would.

You should make arrangements to meet up with Dan in Atlanta in January.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:15 PM   #133
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Erick has been nice and supportive of me before and I regret having been less nice than necessary in some earlier posts. But it's like watching someone try to find the strings on a flute so they can play it like a guitar--or trying to figure out where to blow on a guitar to make it sound like a saxophone. You just have to say something after awhile.

Thanks.

David
Point is I understand the frustration - from both sides, but I've never found a succesfull resolution that equals a hands on experience. And even then it best be with more than just a single guy. It is for no small reason, that I waited a few years till more and more people had gone out to feel people with IP and or aiki and or had any real ability to fight with it real and whole across multiple platforms. Those are not the same discussion points. They are almost three different topics alltogether.
So only speaking personally, everyone who debated just simply stopped. A logical fellow would look at the the shear numbers of people and the diverstiy of their backgrounds and come to a resonable conclusion that there must be something out there that is truly unsusual if it not only stumped such a diverse group but in actual freestyle it managed to handle them to such an extent that it was virtually no contest. Again although a reasonable man might seriously consider that not all are so reasonable.

Decades long, or a few years long.
Remember this is a very old debate for me, and the results have never changed. While I remain obessively passionate about my own training, I have no equal investiture in a public debate. Not even close. In fact my participation has widely been critisized as inconsistent and sporadic. And I think that is fair. But its also fair to say that If it were not for Ellis Amdur I wouldn't even be -in- as far as I am. Other than a hobby and interest in helping others to get this, I could drop this effort tommorrow. No sweat off my back. Therefore I am only compelled to the point of interest that a hobby would extend. So there is no interest in debating with people like these two, when I could be having a discussion with folks who are more reasonable in their assessment of things. IOW, I am unconcerned with battling every detractor out there.
If you guys are talking "past" these two to a larger audiance, thats understandable. But on the whole, direct engagement with these guys seems to be a waste of effort. They are not hearing and never will. Remember the hundred thousands word ending in one..."Duh?" after people try fighting with this?
Think of how I left the door open with you and a couple of others we know so that when the "Duh" moment came...and I boldly (some would call it arrogantly) said it was going to come)...everyone benefited and became friends instead of begrudging cohorts.
I know a certain person actually makes fun of me for the "making friends" comments, as if it is a negative. Screw that. Life's too short, and if you can do it- you can have fun doing it as well if you have half a personality.

Quote:
I'll be there. Just say when and where. And I wish Erick would hop on up, as well. It would be a great opportunity to put all questions to rest, have some eye-opening moments and a lot of great laughs. I'll look forward to January!
I think it might be a case of investiture. It's pretty tough to believe you "get it" and to have spent 40 years of your life in it and to realize after all that time "I missed it." I don't get it all."
Some people not only cannot handle that-they will avoid any opportunity that will prove it. Not everyone wants to grow. They are happy where they are at.

The only difficulty is going to be on you guys, as your understanding deepens and you become like us..knowing full well these people don't have a clue and you struggle with how to address them in a meangingful way all the while knowing one encounter will end the debate.
Er...good luck with that.

I've been back out again in some MMA gyms, I'll tell you about it when we meet. I'll let you when the date is confirmed.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:54 PM   #134
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

So, nothing's changed, then ...

Shiny.

Do you all know who invented the airplane?

Answer -- nobody in particular. It was a common endeavor of many men, (often antagonistic men) who nonetheless each advanced the art in their own way. Electrical power the same, though the antagonism was deeper, and more conceptual, and is still with us, your appliance motors are all AC but the thing with integraed circuits you are reading and typing on -- those are still DC. DC was easier to envision and apply, but had a lot of transmission loss, required local generation, a lot of complicated tinkering to power motors, and was harder to transmit and convert, whilst AC was easier to transmit and convert for a wider range of high and low power modes.

AC (Tesla's invention) on the other hand required some knowledge of maths and rotating fields to understand how to apply -- whilst DC (Edison's baby) was amenable to brute force experimentations. So here we are ...

Quote:
Nikola Tesla wrote:
If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. ... I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety percent of his labor.
Quote:
Thomas A. Edison wrote:
"Just as certain as death [AC power] will kill a customer within six months," [taking a dog -- Edison placed it on a sheet of metal, bring forth two wires attached to an AC generator] "Ladies and gentlemen, I shall now demonstrate the effects of AC current on this dog."
Tesla is mostly forgotten, and Edison celebrated.

Shiny.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:07 PM   #135
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
The guy has felt top people and he has felt you and he advises ...
Respectfully, David, he tells me different than what you assume he advised. Since he gets shot at for a living (a profession I once shared) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on what he said and what he meant, since he has made the point of telling me so. You may assume what you like, however, and it troubles me not at all.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I don't know, Erick. You make it very hard to believe you.
I do not ask to be believed. What I am talking about does not require belief.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Even with that, all these pilots could get together and talk about jet-piloting with a "non-jet-pilot" and all of them would be able to tell very quickly which one of them is the "non-pilot." Well, go sit down with two or three jet fighter pilots and come into their conversation trying to convince them that the methods and tactics of helicopter flying are exactly the same as those of aerial combat in an F-16. And then ask them "why anyone would WANT to have the conversation limited to a certain set of concepts or terminology, and be opposed to a terminology that, being generally applicable, is not within their control."

I'm sure they'll tell you that what you say is fine within your limits, but irrelevant to what they are discussing. Would you find it a fault in them to do so?
Not a fault, but a exceedingly poorly chosen example, and no, not the same. You see, by virtue of the good offices of the United States Navy and its infinite wisdom of training progression for flight -- I can fly under their aerodynamic principles -- but they can't fly under mine ... At least, not without learning the same concepts and the training in their use ...


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:33 PM   #136
dps
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Re: What is "IT"?

Why is it so important to prove that Eric does not practice IT or does not know IS.
It seem some of you guys are a bit obsessive about it.
Is he violating a patent or infringing on a copyright?



David
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:14 PM   #137
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Tesla is mostly forgotten, and Edison celebrated.
Really?

The world has built a great deal on the basis of what Edison did. The world is still catching up to Tesla.

But they lived in the same world: in that world, there is no sound statistical analysis of contemporary search queries that would support your conclusion.

FL

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Old 10-05-2009, 06:27 PM   #138
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Re: What is "IT"?

Tesla was suppressed.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:31 PM   #139
DH
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Re: What is "IT"?

Eric is the one who enters in on discussions of internal power/ aiki with us. To date he has not said anything that the folks with some understanding recognize. Yet...he...continues to enter into these discussions as if he does know the subject, when he clearly does not. As just about everyone knew was going to happen. He was tested and he doesn't know what he is talking about. That's all.
Good luck in your training
Dan
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:52 PM   #140
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Re: What is "IT"?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
You can know going in whether you have actual "gold" or just a "gold-plated" piece of tin. Or maybe it's not even gold-plated, but just gold painted.

Or maybe it's just a piece of yellow tin.

When you go to the pawn shop with that, do you complain because the guy doesn't value your yellow tin as highly as he values the 14c gold another guy brought in?

Has is it ever occurred to you that maybe what you have is really less valuable than someone who has put in decades of training at the highest levels?

You should ponder that for awhile.

David
Daivd,

If you ever heard of Pyrite, a..k.a. "fools gold?"

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
-Euripides

A great quote my father was fond of saying, I keep that in mind, often musing over it. And I bind that in with, the historical event of the California Gold Rush in the1800's. Specifically how pyrite became known as fools gold. This was because of nearly every knew miner looking for the "mother load" had contracted "gold fever." See almost everyone in those days rushing to California initially and fanatically looking for gold where ignorant of Mineralogy, gold panning and mining believed they found GOLD! when they came across the abundant, wide spread and worthless pyrite.

I ponder such historical events and things as guides in the determination of the value, validity, and the navigation of things. In this way, I am not taken in by things like pyrite as being gold. Its been working pretty well for a number of years. Well enough for me to confidently use it as advice.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #141
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric is the one who enters in on discussions of internal power/ aiki with us. To date he has not said anything that the folks with some understanding recognize. Yet...he...continues to enter into these discussions as if he does know the subject, when he clearly does not. As just about everyone knew was going to happen. He was tested and he doesn't know what he is talking about. That's all.
Good luck in your training
Dan
It says allot.

I think such rudeness and disrespect is uncalled for, and unnecessary, and it should be reported, and stuff. But whatcha gonna do?

Last edited by Buck : 10-05-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:34 PM   #142
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Really?

The world has built a great deal on the basis of what Edison did. The world is still catching up to Tesla.
Not true. The world has built a great deal more on the basis of Telsa's invention than Edison's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Westinghouse

" Westinghouse contacted Tesla, and obtained patent rights to Tesla's AC motor. Tesla had conceived the rotating magnetic field principle in 1882 and used it to invent the first brushless AC motor or induction motor in 1883. Westinghouse hired him as a consultant for a year and from 1888 onwards the wide scale introduction of the polyphase AC motor began. The work led to the modern US power-distribution scheme: three-phase AC at 60 Hz, chosen as a rate high enough to minimize light flickering, but low enough to reduce reactive losses, an arrangement also conceived by Tesla."

David
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:44 PM   #143
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
He was tested ...
...they read what they want to read, they see what they want to see, and believe, what they wish to believe -- all on the basis of what was not said or seen -- fighting phantoms is really no fun at all...

Quote:
Quote:
Tesla is mostly forgotten, and Edison celebrated.
...The world has built a great deal on the basis of what Edison did. The world is still catching up to Tesla.

But they lived in the same world: in that world, there is no sound statistical analysis of contemporary search queries that would support your conclusion
I wasn't thinking statistics, I was thinking human beings -- This one who gave us radio, hydropower, induction motors, long line transmission, 60 Hz AC power, step-down transformers, X-rays, sparkplugs, spread spectrum and electronic logic gates, among other things and died broke in the year before the Supreme Court reversed the Marconi patent on radio in his favor, and whose inventions have had more lasting influence than Edison's did, but little of the credit -- maybe being righted, however belatedly.

Also, he was kinder to small dogs...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:05 PM   #144
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Also, he was kinder to small dogs...
And large elephants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsy_the_Elephant

David

Last edited by dps : 10-05-2009 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:29 PM   #145
David Orange
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
...they read what they want to read, they see what they want to see, and believe, what they wish to believe -- all on the basis of what was not said or seen -- fighting phantoms is really no fun at all...
Yeah. So the guy was lying, basically?

So there are no reports out there that you "don't have it"?

But there are also no reports out there that you do.

See, from my experience, when someone really has it, it's a profound and unforgettable experience to touch them or even to be around them. Ark weighed 130 pounds, but putting my hand on his shoulder was like touching a horse: and when he shook, it sent me flying. The same kind of thing with Dan.

When someone "has it" people go away talking about it.

You tell me you have it, but you're the only one I've heard that from, and your written explanations also tell me that you don't have it. So what am I to think?

You shouldn't miss a chance to meet up with Dan.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-05-2009, 11:04 PM   #146
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Re: What is "IT"?

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snip
You arguing just to argue? At this point you look like a douche-bag.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:08 PM   #147
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Re: What is "IT"?

Mr Roeserr
Eric and I contend on this issue, but I cannot sit here idle while he is spoken to or about that way. I think we can all do better than this when we disagree.
We can all get under each others skin, but please try to keep in mind that many people here are parents and spouses and lead full and balanced lives outside of budo. You would probably be surprised at how many argue on the net and become friends in person.
Please reconsider the level of your dialogue. There are better and more effective ways to make your point.
Cheers
Dan

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Old 10-05-2009, 11:25 PM   #148
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah. So the guy was lying, basically?
I've said what I've been told -- same as you, only I have it first hand, and he has no support.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
See, from my experience, when someone really has it, it's a profound and unforgettable experience to touch them or even to be around them. Ark weighed 130 pounds, but putting my hand on his shoulder was like touching a horse: and when he shook, it sent me flying. The same kind of thing with Dan. .
Wonderful. Go train. Why are you concerned with me? I tell you when he shakes @1:02-03 that I know what Ark is doing, and how it relates to other aspects of his training. I apply it in other ways. I don't pretend to analyze what others don't show or discuss in physical terms. He is gifted without question -- but whatever the relative benefits of his training regimen or anyone else's (and there may be many) what is being trained is evident to me.

The way it is discussed, though, is like saying that principles of sailing exist in exclusive absolutes, rather than being developed in varying degree to varying purpose or optimization. They exist actually quite widely -- well, pretty much wherever you find wind and water. If I am not interested in 45 knot sailboard speed, but in trimming a schooner three points closer to the wind, and one extra knot fully laden, the relative "show" " of the former has no bearing on the understanding or effective applications of sailing principles.

That is the order of what we are talking about -- sailing, vice powerboating or flying. If you fight wars these days you do it with air ordnance, mechanized ground assault, over horizon targeting and stand-off weapons, small unit weapons like LAW , SAW, small arms and 40 mm grenades. Hand to hand engagement is last-ditch warfare, not to be disregarded, but secondary and a mark of a strategic and/or tactical failure. Not to be wished. To fight and kill we have vastly preferable ways of doing that. So while martial effectiveness in the art is crucial -- it is a hallmark -- not an endstate.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
... You tell me you have it,... your written explanations also tell me that you don't have it. So what am I to think?
It is you that have said it? Well, start by saying what reasons lead you to that thought. What tells you that? I see and read things that make perfect sense in comparison what I actually do in my training. I can explain them -- but not trivially -- they are not trivial things. On which point, I think no one here disagrees.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:34 PM   #149
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Neither Dan nor I wish for a good discussion to be foreshortened, and his caution is well-taken -- by everyone..

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:11 AM   #150
rroeserr
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mr Roeserr
Eric and I contend on this issue, but I cannot sit here idle while he is spoken to or about that way. I think we can all do better than this when we disagree.
We can all get under each others skin, but please try to keep in mind that many people here are parents and spouses and lead full and balanced lives outside of budo. You would probably be surprised at how many argue on the net and become friends in person.
Please reconsider the level of your dialogue. There are better and more effective ways to make your point.
Cheers
Dan
Personally I don't see how that is much worse than saying someone is a dinosaur or saying they have nothing to contribute to a conversation.

So do you think he's arguing just to argue at this point? At a certain point you have to wonder. There is a consensus between what you, Mike, and Rob say, there are people that have meant you that back up you can do what you say, there is someone that says Erick can't, ad nausea. Any time there is an interesting IS question Erick will post something on the thread about the human resonance frequency, and then all that happens is there are 15 pages of people arguing with him. What was it, 5 pages back on this thread was a nice answers for what 'IT' is...Maybe he likes the attention?

Anyway, off to work.
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