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Old 09-14-2009, 10:13 AM   #1
Flintstone
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Question Yoseikan katas

Hi all. There are a couple of katas in the Yoseikan that we've never been taught. I'm talking about the Kansetsu Waza no Kata and the Shime Waza no Kata.

Because the legacy of Mochizuki Sensei is so much spread over his different students, who in turn created their own systems, it's difficult to know who learned what from Sensei. Fact is that I've never been exposed to these two katas.

If I could ask for a wish... could some of you enlighten me on these two katas? Like what waza are included?

Sorry if this is too much asking, but my curiosity's growing over the years...

Thanks and best regards!
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:45 PM   #2
Luca Idolazzi
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Dear Alejandro,
when do you get in touch with these katas?
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:29 PM   #3
Flintstone
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Luca Idolazzi wrote: View Post
Dear Alejandro,
when do you get in touch with these katas?
That's the point: I've never got in touch with them at all!! I see from the Seifukai website that they still practice them, and you being from the Seifukai... perhaps...
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:28 PM   #4
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Kansetsu waza are armbar techniques---against the elbow. There are many ways to get an armbar.

Shime waza are chokes from in front, behind or from the side. I love shime waza the best.

Tomiki Aikido uses these techniques very often. I am not aware of any other style that uses these techniques.

Have a good day.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:41 PM   #5
Flintstone
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Kansetsu waza are armbar techniques---against the elbow. There are many ways to get an armbar.

Shime waza are chokes from in front, behind or from the side.
But of course!

Quote:
Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
Tomiki Aikido uses these techniques very often. I am not aware of any other style that uses these techniques.
Yes, only a few of the schools teach them in a daily basis. Luckily Yoseikan is one of them

Best.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:15 PM   #6
Luca Idolazzi
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Re: Yoseikan katas

dear Alejandro, I can't answer now (and I don't know if the answer is right at all) but I'll provide some hypotesis as soon as possible
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:39 PM   #7
David Orange
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Hi all. There are a couple of katas in the Yoseikan that we've never been taught. I'm talking about the Kansetsu Waza no Kata and the Shime Waza no Kata.

If I could ask for a wish... could some of you enlighten me on these two katas? Like what waza are included?
Alejandro,

I can tell you that these were two serious kata for Mochizuki Sensei and we would do them from time to time. I never thought of them as being on the level of such kata as Hyori no Kata and Tai Sabaki no Kata, but they were important to Sensei. They are included in Nihon Den Jujutsu. Do you know anyone with a copy?

The katas are performed as kata, with uke resisting only at specified times and in specific ways. Otherwise, he is compliant.

Each form is a chain of techniques with tori applying one, then moving or moving uke and applying another, then moving and applying another so there's not as much sense of action/reaction. These katas are more like a physical list of techniques. Kansetsu Waza no Kata may have more of the action/reaction and it presents techniques to some degree in order of ease of moving from one to the next and also as evolutions of the previous technique, such as bend the hand inward, then bend the hand outward, do shita ude garame the switch to ue ude garame, juji-gatame with one leg over, then with both legs over and things like that.

Shime Waza no Kata is just a chain, ordered by convenience of moving from one to the next but there's not much sense of switching from one to the next because uke tries to counter: each of these techniques is a finishing technique and you get very effectively choked time after time after time when doing uke for this. But it doesn't seem to do any harm. If you don't overdo it, I guess.

Hope that's of some help.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 09-16-2009, 03:05 AM   #8
Flintstone
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Thumbs up Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I can tell you that these were two serious kata for Mochizuki Sensei and we would do them from time to time. I never thought of them as being on the level of such kata as Hyori no Kata and Tai Sabaki no Kata, but they were important to Sensei. They are included in Nihon Den Jujutsu. Do you know anyone with a copy?
That's why I find it strange, being that important, that they cannot be found nowhere but in Nihonden Jujutsu. I'm not fortunate enough to have a copy. You know how impossible to find they are. If you hear of one available, please, please, let me know!

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The katas are performed as kata, with uke resisting only at specified times and in specific ways. Otherwise, he is compliant.

Each form is a chain of techniques with tori applying one, then moving or moving uke and applying another, then moving and applying another so there's not as much sense of action/reaction. These katas are more like a physical list of techniques. Kansetsu Waza no Kata may have more of the action/reaction and it presents techniques to some degree in order of ease of moving from one to the next and also as evolutions of the previous technique, such as bend the hand inward, then bend the hand outward, do shita ude garame the switch to ue ude garame, juji-gatame with one leg over, then with both legs over and things like that.

Shime Waza no Kata is just a chain, ordered by convenience of moving from one to the next but there's not much sense of switching from one to the next because uke tries to counter: each of these techniques is a finishing technique and you get very effectively choked time after time after time when doing uke for this. But it doesn't seem to do any harm. If you don't overdo it, I guess.

Hope that's of some help.
This is of great help. At least it gives me an idea about them! Thanks a lot, David!!
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:44 PM   #9
Luca Idolazzi
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Dear fellows,
I haven't much more information in addition to David's ones. Now I speculate about the origins of these kata. Probably they were created in recent times. The fact could be corroborated by their presence in Nihon den Jujutsu but in no other Mochizuki sensei's text. In addition these katas were ideated more to remember techniques arranged in series than to transmit some priciples (like in Hyori no kata or Tai Sabaki no kata).

I think they are important, but in a lesser way than the main katas and this can be justified by the fact that all the techniques were also taught as separate in the more conservative approach of the old Yoseikan Aiki
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Old 09-20-2009, 02:26 PM   #10
Flintstone
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Thank you both! If any of you ever hear of a copy of Nihonden Jujutsu I can lay my hands on, please let me know!
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:47 AM   #11
Massao/Seifukai
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Re: Yoseikan katas

I also am interested in a copy.
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Old 09-21-2009, 02:34 PM   #12
David Orange
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Massao Yamauthi wrote: View Post
I also am interested in a copy.
It's an incredibly rare book, very nicely made. But I won't make you feel worse about it.

I guess you must be training with Sugiyama Sensei down there in Hamamatsu.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-21-2009, 03:30 PM   #13
Flintstone
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Red face Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
It's an incredibly rare book, very nicely made. But I won't make you feel worse about it.

I guess you must be training with Sugiyama Sensei down there in Hamamatsu.

Best to all.

David
And then... you know... we can kill for a scaned or xerocopied version... right?
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:13 PM   #14
Stormcrow34
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Hello again Alex. I'll ask my teacher if I can scan a copy of his version. I don't know if he'll let it out of his site, but I will ask. I also may have some video you would be interested in. I'll get back to you about it. Happy landings.
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Old 09-22-2009, 02:01 AM   #15
Flintstone
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Hello again Alex. I'll ask my teacher if I can scan a copy of his version. I don't know if he'll let it out of his site, but I will ask. I also may have some video you would be interested in. I'll get back to you about it. Happy landings.
Oh, please, this is a fellow Yoseikan practitioner begging here

Thanks a lot for the help!
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:44 AM   #16
Stormcrow34
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Re: Yoseikan katas

No worries, my friend. I want a copy for myself anyway. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. Later.
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Old 09-22-2009, 06:49 AM   #17
darin
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Re: Yoseikan katas

My teacher had hours of Yoseikan aikido, karate, kobodu and demos on old video reels. Some really priceless footage. We had it all converted to VHS in the 90s but I think those tapes and his copy of Nihonden jujitsu were all thrown away when he died.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:29 AM   #18
Flintstone
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Smile Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
My teacher had hours of Yoseikan aikido, karate, kobodu and demos on old video reels. Some really priceless footage. We had it all converted to VHS in the 90s but I think those tapes and his copy of Nihonden jujitsu were all thrown away when he died.
OMG, that's a big loss from all points of view!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
No worries, my friend. I want a copy for myself anyway. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. Later.
Again, thank you!!
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Old 09-22-2009, 08:08 AM   #19
darin
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Yes a big loss. Once he became ill his family took over his house and possessions so there was nothing we could do.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:04 AM   #20
Massao/Seifukai
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Hello David! Yes, Sugiyama sensei is my teacher along with Namiki Sensei
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:51 AM   #21
David Orange
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Massao Yamauthi wrote: View Post
Hello David! Yes, Sugiyama sensei is my teacher along with Namiki Sensei
Wonderful men. I remember Sugiyama Sensei especially well. And his brother. Do you ever see Murai Sensei? He's up in his 90s now, I think. I hope his health is good. He is another wonderful person and a real treasure of aikido. It's a shame he has never been better publicized and I'm not aware of any interview or history that's ever been written of him, though I encouraged Stan Pranin to interview him.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 09-22-2009 at 09:53 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 09-22-2009, 10:52 AM   #22
Massao/Seifukai
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Re: Yoseikan katas

A year ago I do not see Murai sensei.Ele is very old and not very good health.
It really is a pity that he does not have its recognition.
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm2000864
Video with Murai sensei and Sugiyama sensei
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:50 PM   #23
David Orange
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Quote:
Massao Yamauthi wrote: View Post
A year ago I do not see Murai sensei.Ele is very old and not very good health.
It really is a pity that he does not have its recognition.
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm2000864
Video with Murai sensei and Sugiyama sensei
I really hope Stan or someone can get to him and do some interviews. He started training with Minoru Mochizuki in about 1951 or so, I believe, and he had incredible power, speed, accuracy and skill. He was 71 in 1986, he said, so now he would be about 94 years old. And in that clip you posted, he is about 90. Even when I last saw him, he was close to 80 and would take ukemi for those same sacrifice throws he was doing in that clip. And he would train with anyone, quite unlike most teachers who are getting up in age a few years (early to mid-50s). He would take ukemi for anyone and I never saw anyone who could resist his smooth technique. He would be out there with the black belts through hour-long sutemi-only randori sessions, time after time, taking the falls as well as doing the throws. And with a sword, he was really awesome.

I sure would love to see him again.

Thanks for posting that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:53 PM   #24
Stormcrow34
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Cool video. I've heard really good things about Murai Sensei. Anyone care to translate?
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Old 09-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #25
Luca Idolazzi
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Re: Yoseikan katas

Dear fellows,
here in Europe we're waiting for the 40th anniversary of the ANAMJ. There will be three days with Kenmotsu sensei and I hope collecting information about other senior members of Seifukai, expecially Murai sensei. I'll let you know any news. Carniel sensei often speaks about Murai sensei and the reports are the same of Mr Orange's.

Thanks for the video. Murai sensei is amazing
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