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Old 08-29-2009, 10:49 AM   #1
dps
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Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

From CNET News,

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html

I am not sure how I feel about the government having the power to control the internet in this way?

Is this a loss of freedom for National Security?

David
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:18 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Ummm DARPA invented the internet, so it is just an lllusion that it is "free" anyway. What makes you think the Government hasn't had the ability to do this all along anyway? The bill just formalizes the ability that the Government has had all along anyway.

I don't think it is a big deal as there is alot to be lost if and when this decision was ever made. I think in the event of National Security most folks would probably "Forgive" the intrusion as a sacrifice that is necessary.

Again, if and when this was done it would affect the economy and the level of trust.

Sort of like having the Big Red Button for the Nukes. Our government has the power whether we like it or not....but we trust them to make the right decision since it is a big one.

At some point I believe, we just have to admit that this level of power exsist out there and be mindful of it.

Bill is probably more protective of our rights than if we didn't have it. At least it will codify the trigger points.

Again, don't assume that this power has not exsisted before now...we have always possessed the ability to control the internet...remember it is a DARPA thing!

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Old 08-29-2009, 02:12 PM   #3
DonMagee
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ummm DARPA invented the internet, so it is just an lllusion that it is "free" anyway. What makes you think the Government hasn't had the ability to do this all along anyway? The bill just formalizes the ability that the Government has had all along anyway.

I don't think it is a big deal as there is alot to be lost if and when this decision was ever made. I think in the event of National Security most folks would probably "Forgive" the intrusion as a sacrifice that is necessary.

Again, if and when this was done it would affect the economy and the level of trust.

Sort of like having the Big Red Button for the Nukes. Our government has the power whether we like it or not....but we trust them to make the right decision since it is a big one.

At some point I believe, we just have to admit that this level of power exsist out there and be mindful of it.

Bill is probably more protective of our rights than if we didn't have it. At least it will codify the trigger points.

Again, don't assume that this power has not exsisted before now...we have always possessed the ability to control the internet...remember it is a DARPA thing!
Maybe it was, but now it is a corporate thing. I personally don't trust the government to use power like that only in a emergency. I trust them to use it to quiet to voices of contrary opinion under the guise of terrorism.

Every new power the government gains is a bad one. That is my general stance on it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:41 PM   #4
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

My God, how much more of this threat to civil liberty are we going to take from Bush & Co? One civil liberty after another begin taken away, more government control every day over every aspect of our lives. I am TIRED of Bush...

...oh... wait.. never mind.
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Old 08-29-2009, 03:59 PM   #5
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Maybe it was, but now it is a corporate thing. I personally don't trust the government to use power like that only in a emergency. I trust them to use it to quiet to voices of contrary opinion under the guise of terrorism.

Every new power the government gains is a bad one. That is my general stance on it.
But I thought that is why we had the whole balance of powers thing and the right to bear arms?

The assumption is that the government is GAINING power. I don't think this is true. They already HAVE the power, the bill admits that the government has the power and outlines the methodology for using it.

Don't necessarily like it either, but the fact remains that it exisit and I don't think I'd be comfortable on the flip side of us giving it up either, that thought is horrifiying as well, especially if terrorist groups can shut down our infrastructure.

I think our political system and economic system should be able to keep any abuses in check.

Kinda like the case of Wikipedia choosing to suppress news stories on the whole David Rohde kidnapping deal. DId they do the right thing or the wrong thing? Wikidpedia retains the ability to censor, however, it is not in their best interest to do so, and if they do, then they risk losing the trust of the public. However, is it ethical to interfere for something like David Rohde?

I think the issue is complex and not that easy to solve or mitigate.

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Old 08-29-2009, 05:01 PM   #6
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
My God, how much more of this threat to civil liberty are we going to take from Bush & Co? One civil liberty after another begin taken away, more government control every day over every aspect of our lives. I am TIRED of Bush...

...oh... wait.. never mind.
Never mind? or Mindless????

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/74549.html

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:05 PM   #7
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

DARPA gave up control a long time ago.

From http://www.savetz.com/yic/YIC01FI_19.html.

1.19. Who runs the Internet?

"No one "runs" the Internet. There is no governing entity or business calling the shots. Remember, the Internet is a decentralized mass of thousands of smaller networks, each running with their own purpose, their own sources of income, and their own rulemakers. The Internet is more or less an anarchy. Every organization that is plugged into the Internet is responsible for its own computers.

The fact that no one runs the Internet has its advantages and disadvantages. On the up side, there are no membership fees, no censorship, and no government control. Unfortunately, when something goes wrong (if an important computer goes down or another user begins annoying you), there's no central authority to ask for help. In the absence of "net cops" policing the Internet, users need to rely on their own judgments and the assistance of the system administrators at their site to solve problems or resolve disputes. Most of the time, you're on your own.

The Internet is guided in its growth, however, by several organizations (loosely called the Internet technical groups) that manage it. These organizations attempt to structure the Internet while creating a minimum of restrictions."

Bold type is from me.

David
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:16 AM   #8
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
DARPA gave up control a long time ago.

From http://www.savetz.com/yic/YIC01FI_19.html.

1.19. Who runs the Internet?

"No one "runs" the Internet. There is no governing entity or business calling the shots....and no government control.
And the government couldn't know your favorite web site even if they cared....

You should know that long before Bush, the CIA and NSA had the whole internet fully infiltrated and plotted. They created it. They only opened it to the public to get people to hook themselves into it. They have always controlled it. You think they made something like this and just gave it away with no strings attached???

As Maj. Leavitt advised you, it's a DARPA project and it's still underway. You just didn't know you were a DARPA subject, did you?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-30-2009, 01:58 AM   #9
dps
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
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You should know that long before Bush, the CIA and NSA had the whole internet fully infiltrated and plotted. They created it.
Gee, are you sure,

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. "

by Al Gore

David
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:48 AM   #10
dps
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And the government couldn't know your favorite web site even if they cared....

You should know that long before Bush, the CIA and NSA had the whole internet fully infiltrated and plotted. They created it. They only opened it to the public to get people to hook themselves into it. They have always controlled it. You think they made something like this and just gave it away with no strings attached???

As Maj. Leavitt advised you, it's a DARPA project and it's still underway. You just didn't know you were a DARPA subject, did you?

David
Just in case you were serious.

Simply put,
The Internet is the hardware and the www (World Wide Web ) is one of many types of software that uses the hardware to transmit information.

The interconnecting hardware is owned by private and public communications companies world wide and the networks (that are connected together with the hardware) are owned by private and public entities world wide,

http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/...s_Internet.asp

The legislation would allow the government's control of the private property deemed critical for national security and during a cyber emergency in the United States require the private entities to give private information to the government. The government is the one that decides whose private property is critical and the president decides the cyber emergency and can exercise undefined powers.

David

Last edited by dps : 08-30-2009 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 10:24 AM   #11
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Gee, are you sure,

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. "

by Al Gore

David
Anyone with a little intelligence and honest thinking knows that Gore meant that he took the initiative in opening "DARPANET," as "the internet" was originally known, to public and business use. He was a leader in that initiative and in that regard his statement was completely true. He never claimed to have invented DARPANET.

Anyone really naive and gullible and without a knowledge of the history of "the internet" would fail to understand that the entire backbone was created by CIA/NSA through DARPA. Anyone knowing that this thing is, at heart, a US Government Issued structure would understand that no nook or cranny or backwater of cyberspace is free from US Government penetration, influence and, ultimately, US Government ownership and control.

Typically, I find that people who harp on Gore's statement are only now noticing the wholesale devaluation of American freedom and think that the last eight years of Cheney/Rove cabalistic power-grabbing are the work of Barack Obama.

It's really sad to see.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-30-2009, 10:28 AM   #12
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Simply put,
The Internet is the hardware and the www (World Wide Web ) is one of many types of software that uses the hardware to transmit information.
And it all runs through a backbone created and maintained by the US government. They have access to every electron that flows through it. And Cheney had his nose deep in your private areas for the past eight years.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
The legislation would allow the government's control of the private property deemed critical for national security and during a cyber emergency in the United States require the private entities to give private information to the government. The government is the one that decides whose private property is critical and the president decides the cyber emergency and can exercise undefined powers.
Kevin has already explained this to you in more polite terms. The government already has all that access and all that control and Bush made those decisions without oversight and without limit for the past eight years. You're just now realizing, though...so I don't expect that you'll catch on to the real deal anytime soon.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2009, 12:52 PM   #13
dps
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
And it all runs through a backbone created and maintained by the US government. They have access to every electron that flows through it. And Cheney had his nose deep in your private areas for the past eight years.

Kevin has already explained this to you in more polite terms. The government already has all that access and all that control and Bush made those decisions without oversight and without limit for the past eight years. You're just now realizing, though...so I don't expect that you'll catch on to the real deal anytime soon.
Can you provide sources to back up what you say about the internet?

From http://infosthetics.com/archives/200...ernet_map.html

internet backbone map

extremely detailed map of the North American Internet backbone including 134,855 routers. the colors represent who each router is registered to: red is Verizon, blue AT&T, yellow Qwest, green is major backbone players like Level 3 & Sprint Nextel, black is the entire cable industry put together, & gray is everyone else, from small telecommunications companies to large international players who only have a small presence in the U.S.
this map demonstrates that although AT&T & Verizon own a lot of Internet pipes, they currently do not dominate the Internet infrastructure (yet).
see also opte project & ddos attack visualization.
[cio.com (PDF/1.1MB) & cio.com]

From http://computer.howstuffworks.com/wh....htm/printable



In the beginning, there was ARPANET
ARPANET was a network of computers housed in various universities, government agencies and research facilities. The people who built ARPANET designed many of the protocols that the Internet uses today. ARPANET connected to several other computer networks and the Internet was born. The agency responsible for ARPANET was the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), a branch of the United States Department of Defense (DoD). Since ARPANET began as a U.S. government-sponsored project, you could argue that at one time, the U.S. government owned the Internet.


The physical network that carries Internet traffic between different computer systems is the Internet backbone. In the early days of the Internet, ARPANET served as the system's backbone. Today, several large corporations provide the routers and cable that make up the Internet backbone. These companies are upstream Internet Service Providers (ISPs). That means that anyone who wants to access the Internet must ultimately work with these companies, which include:

* UUNET
* Level 3
* Verizon
* AT&T
* Qwest
* Sprint
* IBM

From http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,12545,00.html

A relatively small number of companies own and operate the fiber and cables that form the Internet infrastructure, with most of the power centered in the U.S., which has been the dominant nation in terms of Internet backbone and use. MCI WorldCom's UUNet division, ATT (T), GTE (GTK)'s Internetworking, Global Crossing (GX), Qwest Communications International (Q) and PSINet (PSIX) are among the U.S.-based major players. Globally, Telstra, the Australian national telecommunications carrier, and Global TeleSystems Group (GTS), which offers broadband in 20 European countries as well as various Asian incumbent telecommunications companies, have major ownership stakes.



David

Last edited by dps : 08-30-2009 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 01:36 PM   #14
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Can you provide sources to back up what you say about the internet?
You provided your own documentation of what I said.

It is correct that the net was originally ARPANET, not DARPANET, but it was constructed by DARPA and everything built on that has to intereact with the DARPA roots of the system.

And Al Gore was central and instrumental in opening that system to the public and business.

But anyone who thinks that system is not entirely permeable to and manipulable and controlable by CIA/NSA (and always has been) should vote Palin 2012.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-30-2009, 01:59 PM   #15
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ummm DARPA invented the internet, so it is just an lllusion that it is "free" anyway. What makes you think the Government hasn't had the ability to do this all along anyway? The bill just formalizes the ability that the Government has had all along anyway.

I don't think it is a big deal as there is alot to be lost if and when this decision was ever made. I think in the event of National Security most folks would probably "Forgive" the intrusion as a sacrifice that is necessary.

Again, if and when this was done it would affect the economy and the level of trust.

Sort of like having the Big Red Button for the Nukes. Our government has the power whether we like it or not....but we trust them to make the right decision since it is a big one.

At some point I believe, we just have to admit that this level of power exsist out there and be mindful of it.

Bill is probably more protective of our rights than if we didn't have it. At least it will codify the trigger points.

Again, don't assume that this power has not exsisted before now...we have always possessed the ability to control the internet...remember it is a DARPA thing!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjiman Franklin

DARPA funded projects at different Universities and TCP protocol suite was created. What you probably think of as the Internet is HTML and HTTP was created by WC3. To say DARPA invented the internet is ignorant.
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:41 PM   #16
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Yea good point Robert. Funded/Sponsored/Collaborated is probably a better choice of words than invented.

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Old 08-30-2009, 04:02 PM   #17
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
DARPA funded projects at different Universities and TCP protocol suite was created. What you probably think of as the Internet is HTML and HTTP was created by WC3. To say DARPA invented the internet is ignorant.
They laid the cornerstone and it's still there, along with portals to every aspect of the internet that exists, including tons of applications and capacities that ordinary citizens neither know about nor have anything to do with.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
DARPA funded projects at different Universities and TCP protocol suite was created.
More or less the same way the government "invented" the bomb: they paid university people to do it. And when those university folks working in the employ of the US government had created the bomb, who "owned" the bomb? Certainly not the scientists or the university and the same applies to ARPANET.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
What you probably think of as the Internet is HTML and HTTP was created by WC3.
That's not what I "think of as the internet". Those are just protocols that run on the internet, which is still and always will be ARPANET at core. And everyone who ever uses the internet for anything will be walking on top of a US government machine. And all their information and methods will always be accessible to the government, as they always have been.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
To say DARPA invented the internet is ignorant.
To think that DARPA's part in it was anything but central is both ignorant and naive. And to think that DAPRA/CIA/NSA don't have complete access is also naive.

In any case, the internet has now become both a vital necessity and a critical vulnerability for American society. Whether anyone thinks it's good or free, our government has the means to control any and every part of it and really should. When Russians, Chinese and AQ actively seek every day to learn to control our vital infrastructure through that porous system, there must be someone who can shut some of the doors and lock some of the windows when and as necessary.

The surprising thing is that the universally-intrusive Bush administration didn't do more to protect it than they did.

Current efforts to formalize that power are nothing more than formalities and those who would try to blow it up to something bigger should join up with those who claim that Obama is stockpiling guillotines and provisioning concentration camps.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2009, 05:05 PM   #18
dps
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And it all runs through a backbone created and maintained by the US government.
Please show proof (references and sources) that the government maintains the internet backbone(s).


From,
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa091598.htm

"As non-military uses for the network increased, more and more people had access, and it was no longer safe for military purposes. As a result, MILnet, a military only network, was started in 1983."


'In 1986, one LAN branched out to form a new competing network, called NSFnet (National Science Foundation Network). NSFnet first linked together the five national supercomputer centers, then every major university, and it started to replace the slower ARPAnet (which was finally shutdown in 1990). NSFnet formed the backbone of what we call the Internet today."

David

Last edited by dps : 08-30-2009 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 05:15 PM   #19
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Please show proof (references and sources) that the government maintains the internet backbone(s).
Show me anything they ever let go of.

It's amazing to me that some people believe in death panels and stockpiled guillotines but they don't think the government can intercept their e-mails or monitor their surfing on the web.

Bliss on.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-30-2009, 06:38 PM   #20
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Wow, do I miss Ted Kennedy already.
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Old 08-30-2009, 07:09 PM   #21
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Show me anything they ever let go of.

It's amazing to me that some people believe in death panels and stockpiled guillotines but they don't think the government can intercept their e-mails or monitor their surfing on the web.

Bliss on.
Perhaps we could we see a little more hyperbole from you David

Last edited by gdandscompserv : 08-30-2009 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 07:24 PM   #22
rroeserr
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Show me anything they ever let go of.

It's amazing to me that some people believe in death panels and stockpiled guillotines but they don't think the government can intercept their e-mails or monitor their surfing on the web.

Bliss on.
Actually the government can't just intercept your emails without your ISP, or mail provider turning them over. You can always encrypt whatever you are doing anyway. Elliptic curve cryptography (it uses a logarithm function of an elliptic curve instead of just a large primes) is unbreakable without quantum computers, and RSA encryption using large primes isn't exactly easy either. If we had too we could always do what the Chinese do and just use VPN, or SSH to circumvent government monitoring.

The fact that some people believe in death panels has nothing to do with free speech, and the right to privacy.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:34 PM   #23
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

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Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Actually the government can't just intercept your emails without your ISP, or mail provider turning them over.
I was once in a university class with an exchange student who was a fighter pilot for another country.

He was very casual about what all his country's intelligence agency could do.

A young and very pretty woman in the class challenged him saying, there were limits on things, he couldn't do all that.

The guy said, "If we want, we can get a picture of you in your shower," and she shut up.

I said, "How could you do a thing like that?" I'm thinking hiding a camera in her bathroom or something. The girl just looked at me with daggers but didn't say anything else.

It finally dawned on me many years later that she shut up because he had already taken a picture of her in her shower...and he was just letting her know that..."we have ways..."

So, uh....how hard is it to get stuff off an ISP, do you really think?

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
You can always encrypt whatever you are doing anyway. Elliptic curve cryptography (it uses a logarithm function of an elliptic curve instead of just a large primes) is unbreakable without quantum computers, and RSA encryption using large primes isn't exactly easy either. If we had too we could always do what the Chinese do and just use VPN, or SSH to circumvent government monitoring.
That still doesn't mean they can't get in your bathroom--or get someone else in there.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
The fact that some people believe in death panels has nothing to do with free speech, and the right to privacy.
Sure, I believe in the right to privacy, but to be harping on that after eight years of Bush is really way over the hill. Any sense of privacy on the internet should be practically considered a fantasy.

But the relation to death panels is that this whole thread is based on propaganda coming out of the "Tea Party" bunch, that ties up all those right-wing fear machine issues including death panel baloney, birther hype and the stockpiling of guillotines to let the goverment get rid of good patriotic right-wingers and efficiently harvest their organs (and that is not hyperbole: there are groups preaching this nutty stuff and they float on the effluence of the tea baggers):

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/74549.html

So there are honest issues about the internet, but this thread does not reflect them. This is "birther" internet paranoia.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-31-2009, 03:37 PM   #24
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

David Orange wrote:

It's amazing to me that some people believe in death panels and stockpiled guillotines but they don't think the government can intercept their e-mails or monitor their surfing on the web.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Perhaps we could we see a little more hyperbole from you David
I try, but when you read stuff like this, I'm clearly a minor league player in that field:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/74549.html

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:29 AM   #25
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
But I thought that is why we had the whole balance of powers thing and the right to bear arms?

The assumption is that the government is GAINING power. I don't think this is true. They already HAVE the power, the bill admits that the government has the power and outlines the methodology for using it.

Don't necessarily like it either, but the fact remains that it exisit and I don't think I'd be comfortable on the flip side of us giving it up either, that thought is horrifiying as well, especially if terrorist groups can shut down our infrastructure.

I think our political system and economic system should be able to keep any abuses in check.

Kinda like the case of Wikipedia choosing to suppress news stories on the whole David Rohde kidnapping deal. DId they do the right thing or the wrong thing? Wikidpedia retains the ability to censor, however, it is not in their best interest to do so, and if they do, then they risk losing the trust of the public. However, is it ethical to interfere for something like David Rohde?

I think the issue is complex and not that easy to solve or mitigate.
Tell ya what,

If the government will promise to stop attacking the 2nd amendment, and on top of that, get rid of all the import restrictions on automatic weapons / allow me to own weapons that may actually allow the people to revolt if it became necessary, then I'll stop complaining when the try to steal every little bit of power.

So when I can walk into my local gun shop and walk out with a m249 or hell even a recently built mp5 without paying a huge federal tax I'll shut the hell up.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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