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Old 05-08-2009, 04:47 PM   #1
MM
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Push Test 02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr17-NgGdSs

A video of me and Brian walking through our push test to the chest exercise. While Brian doesn't have 100% full force, he does have a good bit of a push going. We never start from 100% because our structure is not yet built to that capacity. But, we're really psyched because we've never been able to withstand this kind of push to the chest before. And remember, even though the vid doesn't show it, I'm standing in a natural stance, feet side by side, shoulder width apart.

Think about the ramifications of being able to withstand push tests as many aiki contemporaries did (Ueshiba, Kodo, Tohei, etc). No longer do you *have* to get out of the way of incoming energy. That energy, once it contacts you, is appropriately matched in some manner of your choosing by aiki.

(yes, yes, tactically, getting out of the way can be advantageous, but that's a different set of training principles.)

So, instead of needing to move out of the way of the incoming force, then attempt to engage and blend with that force, and then try to redirect that force -- your aiki, within you, is the pathway, the internal roadway system, that allows energy to come and go to various parts of the body. What receives, feeds. Ground the energy. Store it. Dissipate it. Whatever, but the aiki creates the connection and where you go, the other connected body follows.

You are free to be just, well, you. Because the "strength" of that incoming force is taken away. Check out the many vids of those that can do the push tests way better than I can. Just what really is happening to the "strength" of all the men pushing? Aiki. The connection of energies in an appropriate manner such that you take away their "will" or their "drive" to attack. As Ueshiba said about his meeting with Tenryu. He could not push me over because I knew the secret of aiki.
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:06 PM   #2
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Push Test 02

Fair dues for posting the video.

I like the way you talk through the adjustments as you make them.
One question I have is why are you using your hands in the way you are?
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:22 PM   #3
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Re: Push Test 02

Because it's a beneficial training tool to use the hands to guide intent.It becomes far more powerful as your training progresses. Of course the intent is in the body but it is in the limbs as well.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:39 PM   #4
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Because it's a beneficial training tool to use the hands to guide intent.It becomes far more powerful as your training progresses. Of course the intent is in the body but it is in the limbs as well.
Cheers
Dan
Hi -
... Thinking it must be like what's going on at 22-24 seconds in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g568...eature=related

Is it right?
These are some thoughts:
It's how to 'bridge' or 'graft' onto a second set of intentions, until (i assume) eventually it's a smooth transition, without the need for the hands.

I noted that in the original TenChiJin that I saw, with Akuzawa does not amplify this movement in such a way..

In my own mind i think of it as bringing two movements with knife-edges together, until the transition between them is easy.

All, for what it's worth, of course.
Josh

p.s. I've finally found a clip of shiko.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZgi36DxDY&NR=1
Gave me some ideas. Thank you very much to the original poster: cris693.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:49 AM   #5
John Brockington
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Re: Push Test 02

Nice video, well done. You seem very relaxed- impressive! I know I tend to lean into the push source somewhat, and this may be happening a little in your case too- if you notice how the letters in the sign across the street from your window, in line with the back of your head, are progressively revealed throughout the course of the video. It helps to have a mirror or something similar that you can check yourself against. Or maybe, like in the "Pushout" drill your partner can check whether or not you are leaning by abruptly removing his push and seeing if you fall forward or not.

Regards-

John
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:32 AM   #6
MM
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi -
... Thinking it must be like what's going on at 22-24 seconds in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g568...eature=related

Is it right?
These are some thoughts:
It's how to 'bridge' or 'graft' onto a second set of intentions, until (i assume) eventually it's a smooth transition, without the need for the hands.

I noted that in the original TenChiJin that I saw, with Akuzawa does not amplify this movement in such a way..

In my own mind i think of it as bringing two movements with knife-edges together, until the transition between them is easy.

All, for what it's worth, of course.
Josh

p.s. I've finally found a clip of shiko.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZgi36DxDY&NR=1
Gave me some ideas. Thank you very much to the original poster: cris693.
I don't know a whole lot about what Akuzawa does to answer. I was hoping to make the training in DC, but I doubt I'll be able to make it.

As for intentions, there are quite a bit of them going all at once. It's keeping them going all at once that's the hard part. Add in a push where now you're under some kind of a load and it gets even harder. You can't have resistance at all to the push or individual muscle groups fire. Not to mention that you lose your intent driven structure. Having no resistance is actually very hard to do. If you start getting the intent driven structure working correctly, the feeling of being pushed goes away. No resistance in aikido.

So, I have my intent going up, pulling my spine upwards. I have my intent as a heavy weight pulling my spine downwards, stretching my spine. It isn't one then the other, back and forth. They're going at the same time.

I have intent going out my arms and intent coming in my arms to my spine going at the same time. If anyone wants to try that, then here's a good test:

Stand in natural stance, arms straight out to the side. Have one person hold your left wrist and one person hold your right wrist. Have each person pull your wrists out away from your body until if feels like you're arms are being pulled out of your body. Then, have each person hold your wrists right there. Don't let the wrists/arms pull back in towards your body. Now, you use intent to send energy out your arms so that your wrists move just slightly beyond the two people holding them. Again, your arm should not come back in towards your body. Have each person monitor that it doesn't. This is starting to get your intent to push outwards. Now, comes the hard part. Use intent to bring energy in to your spine through your arms and try to bring your shoulder blades together -- without letting up on the intent outwards. At some point, you'll be able to do this without all the physical-ness.

Add in to the above, I have intent going down the front of my body into the ground. Then, I have a microcosmic orbit going that goes down the front and up the back. Plus a couple other intents going that are harder to explain.

They aren't really supposed to be 1 then 2 then 3. They should be working all at once right from the start. Like I can do that ... yet. I'm just now starting to work on this exercise. I never could do it before. So, for me, it's get 1 going, then 2, then 3, oh wait, 1 was dropped, pick 1 back up, get #4, #5, oh wait pick #2 back up again, etc.

As for shiko ... wow, is there a lot going on in that exercise. Well, really in all of them.
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:43 AM   #7
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
John Brockington wrote: View Post
Nice video, well done. You seem very relaxed- impressive! I know I tend to lean into the push source somewhat, and this may be happening a little in your case too- if you notice how the letters in the sign across the street from your window, in line with the back of your head, are progressively revealed throughout the course of the video. It helps to have a mirror or something similar that you can check yourself against. Or maybe, like in the "Pushout" drill your partner can check whether or not you are leaning by abruptly removing his push and seeing if you fall forward or not.

Regards-

John
Hi John,

We actually check ourselves like that. I guess you saw the vid for an example of us doing that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVCZf53XIE0

We've gotten to a point where we don't push forward so much anymore. Yeah, we still lean. One of the major reasons is that we're working with a load coming in and we don't have all the structure just right. When the load/push comes in, something gives in our body, so we tend to adjust to that. Sometimes we adjust structure (the right way) and sometimes not (lean).

In my push test 02, I lean because I feel like the push coming in is pushing me backwards. I feel like the force isn't in the sole of my foot but moving me back towards my heel. So, in trying to get the feeling of the force in my sole, I lean. I'll eventually correct it with practice. But, it isn't a push back into uke kind of thing. If Brian were to remove his hand, I'd settle into my feet, but not fall forward. (As you'll see me do in push test 01.)

There is no resistance in aikido, so I must not resist or push back. It's why we do a check like you suggested every now and then. To show us that we're pushing back or if we're actually getting better structure.

Oh, the reason that I feel like I'm being pushed back? It's because my structure isn't just right. By that, I mean I should have the contradictory forces going, the intent down into the ground, the microcosmic orbit going, the intent down around the groin and up into the T-11, etc, etc. For me, what breaks down is my lower back tightening up and causing several intents to not work as they should. Once I relax my lower back, I am able to send the incoming force down into my legs.

I know it's working because my shins and calves scream. It used to be my quads. Then it slowly worked its way down to my knees. Now it's in my calves and shins. The only other place after that is the ground. That's where it should be going in the first place if my body would cooperate.

Last edited by MM : 05-14-2009 at 07:44 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:40 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Push Test 02

Hi Mark, and or Dan if you see this.

On the intent going out I've been working on the thumb side of the arm up over the shoulders (if the thumb is up). On the intent coming in I've been using the pinkie side, connecting that into the armpit and into the body from there.

Does it matter which side does which intent, or do you not segregate the intent that way?

Thanks,
Ron

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Old 05-14-2009, 11:05 AM   #9
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Re: Push Test 02

Hello Ron
Mark is not showing that. I might add that receiving, with the hand up pinky -in and thumb-out (and elbow down) or sending with the hand down, pinky-out thumb-in, is quite useless without a whole body connection and winding. What connects to what and why- can be quite valuable. Also, absolutes and rules are very good building steps but it is the body use behind them that is paramount. You can quite handily get caught in playing hands, say in Judo, Wrestling, Kali, etc. and while grabbing -receive and send *in-balance* with the receiving hand palm down while opening and the sending hand down while closing. Thus breaking that method, and still ending up with the throw or control.
Unfortunately since these things work marginally as well as more completely (and even then there is a difference between the way some arts use those connections)and ...since they are the basis for many techniques... people have become complacent and allow themselves to get caught up in the waza and movement-missing the power behind everything.
Then again when it comes to building the body, some can get lost in certain skills and methods that are built on correct movement but use the movement as "evasions" and "changes" and still miss the point at which they can be strengthening and building the mind/ body intent -hence the state we find arts such as taiji and aikido in.
Gleason makes a very good point: that today, many, if not most, in aikido have become caught up in evasive movement and waza that covers their weaknesses, without ever concentrating on fixing the foundational weaknesses and turning them into a strength.
The skills you are working on always were and always will be -percentage wise- elite. While they are the essence of the power of most of the legendary masters, they will forever be outside of the "knowledge" of the run of the mill teachers in the arts and even further removed from the those with the "knowledge" and then the tenacity to work it and arrive at serious skill in using that knowledge.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:23 AM   #10
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Re: Push Test 02

Anent:
Pushing serves as a great example of a vast body of misinformation. Few have expressed or seem to understand why it has value in and of itself and as a learning tool for developing power.
One might ask:
How one earth does it help develop the center
How does it help eliminate one side weighting
How does it help make incredible aiki-age rising energy
Aiki-sage sinking and sending over energy
How does it join the both of those in use
How does it help develop winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out.
How can it be the birth place of aiki-power that is useble and instant making kuzushi on contact and capturing center in Shiai

So we have posts denigrating the training and poking fun at it...as being static and dead, rooted and useless in fighting, or saying "please tell me there is more to it than this (which should be obvious) until they meet someone very good at learning it's valuable lessons.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:16 PM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Push Test 02

Hi Dan, I don't know if I'm just being thick...but that didn't really answer my question. I was thinking about the example Mark gave with a person on each side of you grasping your wrists. Not so much open/close posture...though I can see why you might think that was what I was getting at. Usually in the posture Mark described I would have my thumb up...but I'm not thinking open vs close, but rather if there is a specific orientation on the arm/body for the intent direction out vs in...

That probably doesn't make any more sense than before, does it?

B,
R (good to see you both posting!)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:38 PM   #12
John Brockington
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Re: Push Test 02

Hi Mark-

I'm with you there, man, back on heels, trying not to lean, feeling tension in low back, feeling the lack of structure. But at least we are feeling what is wrong, and hopefully will be able to correct it with ongoing honest self-analysis, partner work, trial and error, and lots of sweat. And I second Ron's thought- thanks for staying around and fighting the good fight.

John
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:47 PM   #13
DH
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Re: Push Test 02

Hi Bud
If you are facing me and we are in a contest for throwing and we are playing hands and you are grabbing my arms, I can draw you in by opening on one side while closing on another. Of course it can be horizontal or open/ down close/ up (think tenchi nage) or I can close "at you" and open "away" with the body at the same time. For that matter I can wind against myself upper-to-lower.
With the hands:
If I did a nikyo shape and grab your hand with my right; I can open to the right and close over your wrist with the left and drop you by winding without perceivably winding at all. But the right hand is aiming at opening with the thumb out pinky-in and the the left is closing with the thumb-in and pinky down. Then...I can do it the opposite way if you tried to change it and drop your elbow into your center.
Or...forgetting all of that just bring my intent over the contact point, and close over your center and drop you down and draw you in. Its a play ground.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:17 PM   #14
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Re: Push Test 02

Hey Ron
Oops!
I deleted the front section of my post tying your question in to my response of use in fighting.
Your question of Marks example:
If you are standing with the arms extended- you can of course wind and open/ close that way, but what if someon is trying to throw your butt? As in Grappling; face to face. It's much the same thing...(insert rest of post)
Dan
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:32 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Push Test 02

Ah ok, now I'm getting what you were saying...

Thanks!
Ron (a little dense here today, sorry )

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Old 05-14-2009, 01:44 PM   #16
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
For me, what breaks down is my lower back tightening up and causing several intents to not work as they should. Once I relax my lower back, I am able to send the incoming force down into my legs.

I know it's working because my shins and calves scream. It used to be my quads. Then it slowly worked its way down to my knees. Now it's in my calves and shins. The only other place after that is the ground. That's where it should be going in the first place if my body would cooperate.
Lower back is a primary tension point for me . . . actually it's where it screams for me now. With practice, In a year hopefully it will have moved to my quads . . . two years, my calves and shins . . . three years, feeling into the ground . . . at some point before I die, hopefully I'll be able to move with connection.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:35 PM   #17
DH
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Lower back is a primary tension point for me . . . actually it's where it screams for me now. With practice, In a year hopefully it will have moved to my quads . . . two years, my calves and shins . . . three years, feeling into the ground . . . at some point before I die, hopefully I'll be able to move with connection.
Hi Tom
Something which I focus on is the waist / hips as well. Everyone has their own stepping stones into this training though. For me getting them to free that up early leads to a better use along the learning curve. It is a defining movement for most MAer's. You see where they generate power from and you can feel the tensions in the tight hips or one-side weighted movement crowd that leads to easier throws. Waist drawing a spiral "through" the groin frequently means they hit a wall when they try and throw you and they end up throwing themselves. Its part of that "magic feel" before they go over without much effort. Since the two methods of movement are so diametrically opposed, the more stable one (all conditions equal) wins. Its another reason I hate ukemi and what it does to people.After teaching people how to fall, I dump Ukemi as a training model and teach them how stand up against significant power and change it. Aiki- and aiki to absorb and refuse to fall with using aiki.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-14-2009 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:07 PM   #18
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Waist drawing a spiral "through"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...Waist drawing a spiral "through" the groin frequently means they hit a wall when they try and throw you and they end up throwing themselves. Its part of that "magic feel" before they go over without much effort. ...
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

QFT.
This is outstanding.

These paths can strengthen the body terribly well. Will snap out (eventually) any macroscopic misalignments in the hip and lower back. A way....to FLEX strongly into the balanced position of the hips/body. Do you agree? You know, like how you can flex your bicep, but this occurs at the mechanical limit of movement concurrent to the peak in muscular tension/effort. Well, this is a way to flex the core (to it's limits) at/against its neutral balance point...by balancing this precisely against alignments of the spine (i.e. the position you are in) and limbs. Distribute load across frame. Balance load in skeleton and muscle..and ..effort systems. Flex into the ... zero balance point of the body. Strengthening what it feels like to...be...with integrity.
So that when someone knocks you, you just flex and...be...harder. ha. because you .. harden.
Do you agree?

w/ringing the groundpath, clear and clean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRnQS...eature=related
Here's 1 way for this all to happen, i believe, when you apply this to striking. I think this example shows how this maximal body flex/tension be generated at a skeletal-neutral position while lowering the boom on a guy. Otherwise known as punching. It doesn't 'look' like much at all.
On a related note: Is the wiggly guy getting beat down doing anti-aiki training? Or is he equalizing his 'wrinkle' or 'snag' in this guy's fascial webbing/connections? Or is he just wiggly? Or (i think) cause he's fu*n sore and that felt natural to do. ? dunno. Maybe like his skeleton was set ringing like the hammer and the spike at the beginning and we are watching...harmonics.

In the case of Ryabko's punches...
I was wondering what the best anti-aiki training would be. What is the best way of meeting that punch? Obviously, not meeting it at all. But if need be; Could it be related to meeting it as perfectly as possible; and letting it w/ring back to him. probably to his core. not sure exactly what..that last bit is extrapolation.

Thanks.

Sorry for thread-jack. ..
All the Best,
Josh
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:42 PM   #19
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
...

I know it's working because my shins and calves scream. It used to be my quads. Then it slowly worked its way down to my knees. Now it's in my calves and shins. The only other place after that is the ground. That's where it should be going in the first place if my body would cooperate.
Mark
That kind of blows my mind that that's the way that you are thinking.
It's very Interesting.
You reminded me of this story i read about this kung-fu practitioner ( Hung Gar?) that was given a heavy teak staff by his Father/Teacher, and was told to hold it with chi. Then when he figured out how to do that, he then held it with the chi penetrating 1 inch or so into the length of the staff, and carried on in this until he could move the 'balance point' to the full length of it.
He only then could do as his teacher and pick up the heavy staff with his fingertips.

I hadn't thought of it quite in that way before.
Best,
Josh
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #20
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Anent:
...How does it help develop winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out.
..
Cheers
Dan
Hi,
Now this questions completely stumps me.
May I ask you to ask more questions related to it?

Best,
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 05-14-2009 at 11:49 PM. Reason: spasticity
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:35 AM   #21
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Re: Push Test 02

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Quote:
Anent:
...How does it help develop winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out.
Hi,
Now this questions completely stumps me.
May I ask you to ask more questions related to it?
Best,
Josh
Not that you asked me, but to point you to some non-proprietary sources of related information -- the physical term for this "winding energy" is the sense of controlling or unleashing "moment," in a spiral form -- or, more properly, a torquing shear strain.

The "intention" toward maintaining "contradictory forces" are subjective sense impressions of what, objectively speaking, is keeping a chain of bones in a supercritical alignment that holds compressive loads without any substantial leverage by reducing the instantaneous torquing shear at joints to zero and keeping it there (a load-dependent shape called a funicular ("cable-like") curve) -- which is the mechanical inverse of the first point -- and is how they are related.

Kokyu dosa training, for instance, is learning to maintain, to collapse and to manipulate these chains, remotely, in the upper body. The points of problem people are noting in their anatomy are unresolved shear strains at discontinuities (joints) being unconsciously countered with joint leverage and its associated counter-shear (very low, and progressively worsening mechanical advantage), instead of simply directly eliminating the misalignment of load causing the primary joint shear (very large and progressively increasing mechanical advantage).

They write books on this sort of mechanics -- with pictures, and a more generally accessible terminology. Training it is, well, training it, and take the flavor you like.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...3&d=1208097999

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-15-2009 at 08:49 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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