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Old 04-12-2009, 04:17 PM   #1
Thomas Donelson
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Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Karate training is available to sub-teens, younger than 13.

Training school children how to hit, strike or kick other children may be incomplete training for the school, playground and soccer field environments.

My idea is that if the youngsters stay standing, and don't hit, then teachers don't have to implement discipline. So there are several goals of wrist lock training, aimed at both opponents remaining standing, and training to avoid getting hurt, or inflicting injury.

One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.

One concern I have is that when I first learned a wrist techniques, my partner was really upset with me, because I had no judgement about the pain I was causing my partner. So injury is possible, so I am trying to build sensitivity into the training, as a first step.

I am starting to learn more about wrist locks. I know two.

One is with two thumbs on the back of the opponent's hand, bending the hand at the wrist. One hand wrapped around each side of the opponent's hand. The grasp can be initiated as the opponent tries to strike, or other wise extends an arm. Stepping left, right, or backward, forward, to keep a position from which it is difficult for the opponent to strike or kick.

Another wrist lock is for one hand to grab the opponent's arm, just below the wrist, and with the other hand, push the palm against the knuckles of the opponent's hand, bending the hand at the wrist some 80 or 90 Degrees.

I ordered the Roy Dean Wrist-Lock Video. I could call some Aikido instructors, to find their recommendations of books. I have stopped by, some places, when they were closed, or busy. I could be more diligent in stopping by Dojos.

I just did some searches on Amazon. Alibris and a library; Found some more books and DVD's. So I will post back to this thread at least over the next few months. Just starting.

..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-12-2009 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:38 PM   #2
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I found a thread with some Book References. I need to get a glossary of terms for posting on this forum.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=Glossary

Here is a thread with a reference to You Tube.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=Glossary

..
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:45 PM   #3
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.
I am not sure I understand.

You are teaching kids wristlocks they could avoid getting in trouble by using physical force that appears to be less "witnessed"?

You only know two?

What is your background/qualifications to be teaching this stuff to kids?

This is a huge, huge area of responsibility with lots of room for misinterpretation, psychology, and mis-application.

I'd be careful, if you are looking for advice, but I am not sure I completely understand what it is that you are doing and why.

I understand inner city DC some if that is what you are getting at, so yea, I understand the need for a different approach in some areas.

However, I'd think that a more holistic approach to conflict resolution might be more appropriate that teaching subtle forms of jiu-jitsu that can really hurt someone if applied wrong.

I have been doing martial arts for along time and have a very decent background in jiu-jitsu and I would be very hesitant to teach wristlocks to anyone outright. In fact, I pretty much don't teach them until well over a year or so into training to be honest.

I'd probably be looking at this kind of an approach to martial arts training with kids that deal with gangs, violence or the need for self defense vice the tactical aspects of application.

http://www.tricycle.com/feature/peace-street

Good luck!

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Old 04-12-2009, 07:32 PM   #4
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I have to echo what Kevin is saying. IF you are thinking of teaching wrist lock techniques to kids in school, you'd better know what you are doing on several levels. On the first level, you had better know the actual techniques to a teacher's level of competence. Secondly, you'd better get a formal buy-in or approval from school officials. Thirdly, you better know what the various laws of self-defense are in your jurisdiction, particularly as they apply to students and/or the school setting.

Since you mention that you only know two wrist locks, I assume that you are not an experienced martial arts instructor. If that is correct, you are heading into more trouble than you can imagine.

You can certainly learn something from the Roy Dean material, but that is only part of the equation - the HOW is the easy part; the WHY and WHEN are far more important.

If you are a teacher, don't plan on being awarded tenure if you proceed. If you are a student, plan on getting your fanny kicked by the bullies on campus and being thrown out of school yourself. While your intentions may be noble, the reality you face will be unpleasant. I don't enjoy raining on your parade, but I'm concerned that you're all wet anyway.

Michael
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:44 PM   #5
Fred Little
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

In addition to the sage advice Kevin and Michael have provided, I would point out more generally that wrist locks involve bone growth plates and it might be a good "best practice" to leave techniques that stress bone growth plates be until the bones are fully grown, even in instances where the instructor is well-trained and otherwise competent.

YMMV,

Fred Little

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Old 04-12-2009, 10:37 PM   #6
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Quote:
Thomas Donelson wrote: View Post
My idea is that if the youngsters stay standing, and don't hit, then teachers don't have to implement discipline. So there are several goals of wrist lock training, aimed at both opponents remaining standing, and training to avoid getting hurt, or inflicting injury.
Hi Thomas,
In this situation I don't think locks would preclude the need for teachers to issue discipline. If one student lays hands on another in any way that is aggressive, discipline of some form is required: period. It could be anything from a verbal warning to a police call depending on the particulars of the situation and age of the students. Disciplining students is simply part of the job of teachers. I like that you're trying to streamline things, but I'm not sure locks instead of strikes is the way to do it. I love the idea of training to avoid getting hurt or inflicting injury though! That is spot on in my book.

Quote:
One Goal of my wrist lock training is to have youngsters avoid getting disciplined, or having witnesses say "That child hit _____." Often witnesses see only part of a confrontation, so even if witnesses are interested in giving a truthful account, striking or kicking in a confrontation, risks a truthful witness giving part of a story, that fails to give the true picture, and can make a child using permissable, lawful self-defense, look guilty.
Maybe I should ask this: what is the point of having youngsters avoid getting disciplined? Also, accidentally spraining or breaking someone's wrist because that person moved poorly (e.g. wasn't given training on how to avoid getting hurt) is just as bad, if not worse, than a punch to the face.

Quote:
One concern I have is that when I first learned a wrist techniques, my partner was really upset with me, because I had no judgement about the pain I was causing my partner. So injury is possible, so I am trying to build sensitivity into the training, as a first step.
And that was in a contolled environment I presume. Imagine someone with slight training operating in a more hectic situation. Instead of a bruised cheek you could have a broken wrist instead. I'm not trying to say kids can't learn wrist locks in a way that reaches the goals you have in mind, but there are many liability issues at play here I think.

Quote:
I am starting to learn more about wrist locks. I know two.
Learning the basic form is easy I think. It can take a lot longer to learn how to apply them with serious precision, and that seems to be what you're describing. Books and videos are great for learning the basic form, but it takes some serious study to get beyond that, let alone to teach it very well.
If you're looking to teach kids how to avoid getting into trouble from fighting situations, teach them ways to evade and deescalate.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:13 PM   #7
raul rodrigo
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

In our own dojo, we refuse to teach wrist locks to kids below 12. The danger of damaging bones and tendons that are still growing is too great. Even with one of my 15 year olds, I dont stress the locks a lot, for fear he might do it too hard on his 14 year sister, also in my class. All in good time.

With enough training, you can become sensitive enough to know exactly when the lock begins to "bite"--to hurt uke, and so you can pull back a bit. But that can take years of training. Since you don't have a teacher, I can't see how that sensitivity can develop--outside of an outraged uke bopping you on the head and saying, "too hard!" Not a formula for good practice, since neither of you can really trust that the other knows enough when to stop.
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:37 AM   #8
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Thank you for the words of Caution.

Some of the above posts have suggested Words for De-escalation of a conflict. I have previously started a thread, "Shouts for Sub Teens"

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15236

So I agree that words are better than Dancing with Wrist Locks.

I also agree that Wrist Locks can cause injury, and that is one reason I have hesitated, in the past, to proceed.

One of my approaches has been to advocate to Karate instructors about teaching kids to dance with wrist-locks, so my personal liability is limited.

The goals I have in mind are to keep standing, and keep the opponent standing, while preventing injury. So Wrist Locks, together with positioning footwork, seems to fulfill those goals. Have I missed other options?

Some Aikido training is aimed at putting the attacker on the ground. The idea being that it is difficult for an attacker to strike from the ground, and it is easier for a victim to step out of reach of the attacker, if the attacker is on the ground. Some children have been disciplined for "Pushing" when an attacker child is witnessed to be on the ground. So keeping the attacker bully standing, seems like a better option.

Further, another idea of Aikido, is to get the attacker youngster talking. Some of the suggestions for Shouts from the victim are Questions, Aimed at getting the Attacker to Talk, or shout back. The process of getting the attacker talking, sometimes stimulates the attacker to think, and sometimes to reconsider his/her actions. This is part of the process of placing an attacker on the floor, because the process of the attacker getting back up, the attacker sometimes re-thinks his/her intentions to continue the attack.

Maybe the process of dancing will stimulate the attacker to rethink the decision to continue the attack. The steps in dancing, should be taken to avoid injury to the attacker, to keep the attacker off-balance so the attacker cannot kick or hit or bite; But also to allow the attacker a measure of expression, in choosing the direction of the next repositioning dance steps.

While a wrist injury can be serious, punching a child in the face can cause a bleeding gash in the face. Boxers wear boxing gloves to avoid the Knuckles of the fist from causing the face to bleed. A youngster striking the face of another youngster, even purely defensively, risks the bully looking like the victim, with blood streaming down his cheek and chin. Many bullies will accuse the victim of being the attacker, when things are being sorted out by the principal. In addition to contradicting pacifist teachings of "Turn the other cheek", striking a bully in the face carries the risk of reverse appearances.

A gash in the face may require stitches, which could mean an ambulance trip to the hospital. A wrist injury is less obvious, and less painful. So wrist locks carry less risk of discipline, even when injury might occur. Even though it might be a highly effective deterrent, just to punch the bully squarely in the face.

..

Last edited by Thomas Donelson : 04-13-2009 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:59 AM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

This is certainly a difficult topic to communicate about over a thread as there is a lot of "non-verbal" communication that goes on in the process that I am sure we are missing.

That said, based on what you have described above, I can't agree with your reasoning at all.

I believe if you are going to use martial arts training, specifically aikido, to help kids deal with bullies etc it must be taking almost entirely as a holistic tool to teach kids how to better understand themselves and their emotional, mental and physical states when they are dealing with situations that are stressful, deal with peer pressure and bullies.

It is complex.

I thiink if you are approaching it from a tactical standpoint of "how to engage a bully physically without showing any signs or preception of injury or agression". You are completely wrong. I would not even teach my soldiers this way. It is dangerous to both parties, the one you are teaching especially I think!

Students are either in a fight or they are not. Assuming that you are teaching the "good" side of the fight, that is the one that does not want to fight, then you are sending them a message that it is okay to engage in a fight....as long as you don't leave any marks or show any signs.

OR you are teaching them the preception that they should attempt to control the situation within a narrow set of guidelines when indeed, most likely those options (the option of choice) has been taken away from them and they could not walk away from the fight and must engage in something that may be serious.

You are teaching them ways to lose on many, many levels IMO.

Conflict resolution is a very difficult set of skills to learn. I have been struggling with this for many, many years, and I personally do not possess the skills that you are professing to teach your students.

If I have the choice to walk away from a physical altercation, then I do so, at all cost.

If I don't, then I fight. I fight to get control of the situation, kuzushi with my opponent on the ground and I am in control. What happens after that is what happens. I had no choice. (philosophically I do, but that is another discussion) and now must deal with the consequences of said fight.

If it required striking, pushing, or creating distance to gain control then that is what it takes...remember, the choice to fight has been taken from me and I am fighting to prevent myself from getting injured.

If I am in control of the fight, then I don't really need those skills do I? I can choose to disengage and walk away.

I tihink this is the dynamic you should be teaching your kids. That fighting is serious, that it has 2nd and 3rd order effects that can live with you for the rest of your life. That when you fight, you do so cause you have no options left.

Your training should center around teaching them that there are many, many ways and that skill can be gained to avoid physical confrontation.

But when it does happen, here are the tools and things you have and this is the damage that they can cause...so be careful when you make that decision to fight....it has responsibility..great responsibility.

Wrist locks and "aiki tactics" are very narrow in the dynamic of the fight. They can get you in over your head and in big trouble trying to fight from such a narrow paradigm.

I think you are setting up conditions that are very dangerous if you approach training this way.

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Old 04-13-2009, 05:24 AM   #10
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

A few more thoughts. I think this might make more sense.

If you have Roy's DVD, watch it. Note that in all cases or practical application that Roy is in a position of dominance. that is, before the wristlock will work, you have placed uke in a position in which you have kuzushi, or are in a dominant position.

That means that you have choice, you have control of the situation in order to gain control of the wrist lock. They don't work otherwise.

Therefore, if you are in that position, assuming that there are no weapons involved, then what purpose is the wristlock anyway? It becomes the next level of escalation, which in all cases I can think of, is unethical and excessive in the use of force. You can keep the threat of it there, but the actual use of it becomes un-necesary.

This is a big reason why we spend so much time in BJJ on teaching positional control/dominance before we even touch wristlocks. Again, I won't even teach them until the senior blue belt level which is well over a year of solid, dedicated BJJ training.

However, not to be "too sarcastic".....

Many people will buy a tape like "secrets of the wrist lock" and look at it in isolation of all the other factors and dynamics of a situation and think that they have something powerful and proceed to ignore all the other important aspects of the situation that actually are present.

Then we end up with aikidoka that say "I tried aikido on my friends and it did not work. therefore, Aikido does not work in a fight."

Or we get someone hurt badly because they did not understand they full dynamic and range of what it is that they are training.

Wrist locks are not for controlling people for the most part. Positional dominance is primary or that. I'd spend time with your students on these aspects first.

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Old 04-13-2009, 08:52 AM   #11
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

The vision of the confrontation, at school, or on the soccer field, is a progression. Walking away may be an option. Standing ground to agressive intent, is a decision, with a range of times available.

Deciding not to back down, then the victim trained in Aikido wrist lock dancing, would wait for the attacking bully to make a move with his hands, in grabbing or striking.

Shouts such "Please Let Go of me", or "You are hurting Me", or "That Hurt", or "Stop Hitting me" or "Why are you threatening me?" or "Why are you trying to hit me?" can be attempted.

At the same time that defusing phrases are being comtemplated, the victim can position his feet, so that if the bully does try to strike him, that he can evsion various wrist locks to apply and directions to step, in dancing with the Bully.

While envisoning wrist locks to apply, with force, the sensivity to injuring the bully can be contemplated, and as wrist locks are applied, the amount of force needed can be envisioned and judged.

There may be cases, in which your suggestion of applying total control and forcing to the ground, may be necessary. If the bully is on an assignment from a gang, or a criminal, operating as part of a planned heist, then allowing the perpetrator to vent would be of no use.

Ordinarily Gang members are not on assignments, and are just acting tough, and unloved. So deomonstrating concern for the bully, and listening to him rant, and encouraging the attacker to vent, can be part of the defusing process.

The friends of the victim, after the confronation has defused, might say, "Wow, I would have run away. You stood your ground."

Respect from classmates or team-mates can be gained by standing up. Certainly the shouts, wrist locks and dancing may not win every fight. But if the victim has conducted himself in a principled manner, then he/she can have self-respect.

A good sequence of teaching might be for the shouts, the self-control, the channeling of KI, the Injury prevention blocking of strikes, the converting the blocks to wrist holds, and the prevention of injury to an attacker, by practicing sensitivity in wrist holds, and then dance steps.

..
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:25 AM   #12
raul rodrigo
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

That's all very well, Thomas, but what makes you think that you would be qualified to be teaching this set of skills?
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:26 AM   #13
Michael Hackett
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

To paraphrase what Kevin Leavitt recently posted, wrist locks are merely one tool in a toolbox of techniques. In order to use them successfully, you must have a fundamental skill set at your command. These include having situational awareness, getting off the line of attack, blending with the attack, taking the attacker's balance and then applying the lock with the appropriate amount of force. Those skills require both an instructor and practice to develop. Without the foundation, simply grasping or catching an attacker's wrist and trying to apply a lock is almost fruitless. It can be done, but the success rate is very, very low.

Your basic concept of trying to find a less-violent response to an attack is worthwhile. Kids, particularly inner city kids, are faced with real-world threats today and they do need help to protect themselves. You might consider visiting various martial arts dojo in your area and discussing your concerns and ideas with the instructors. They may put you on a successful track.

Something that continues to bother me from your first post was the idea that a kid could use the "Aikido wrist lock dancing" to avoid being disciplined at school. While some schools have a zero tolerance policy and discipline aggressor and victim alike, many investigate these events and discipline only the aggressor. It struck me that the victim in your scenario would have some sort of plausible deniability and that isn't much of a lesson for our kids either.

Lastly, I'm still not sure whether you are an educator yourself or a student. It matters in this discussion.

Michael
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:03 AM   #14
Garth Jones
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I think Kevin is spot on with his comments on position and dominance. Trying to apply a wrist lock without movement blending is a sure way to get grabbed hard or hit. For example,most beginning aikido students go through a phase during which they try to catch the wrist out of the air as a punch is coming in. In the controlled setting of a dojo this can be corrected gently - out on the street the person is just going to get hit.

Movement, blending, taking balance, all of that precedes a throw or lock, even if only by an instant. I teach kids in the age range you are interested in and I think, as others have said, that a more holistic approach is needed. Joint locks require technical precision and a good deal of practice to get right. If a kid tries one and their attacker doesn't go down, then they are in a wrestling match and a heap of trouble.

Also, Raul is right about developing joints. We don't do most of the aikido wrist locks with our kids either. An over torqued joint can be a severe and long term injury - it might be seen as a much larger use of force than you might think.

Anyway, I would highly recommend developing a stronger background before showing anything to kids. There are a number of excellent aikido dojos in the DC metro area as well as any other martial art you might be interested in.

Garth
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:07 AM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I am another voice against wrist locks on kids - in kids aikido classes it is what we DON'T do because of the growth plates and other issues. Teaching kids to move off the line, evade, block a punch, yell NO, fall without getting hurt, as well as the discipline of lining up, bowing, etc is all much more valuable then any locks or techniques.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:35 AM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Please read carefully the following thread:

Bad Advice and Self Defense
link (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16015)

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-13-2009, 02:08 PM   #17
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

I have ordered the Roy Dean Wrist-Lock video, but have not yet watched it. Thanks for the words of caution. I do not have a particular time table for advancing.
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:06 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Sounds good Thomas. If you have time and want to get together sometime to discuss in the DC area I would be happy to do so, as it might be more productive to actually be able to discuss using physical descriptions vice trying to write about it here.

If you are talking about gangs "on mission" etc, then there are alot of things going on in the situation than simply "non-committed" bullying and wristlocks IMO will not work without alot of other structure in place.

There are some real good BJJ schools in the area, and to be honest, I think those are probably what would most be able to give you the skills you are looking to transmit to your kids. Unfortunately, it is a huge time commitment to learning that needs to take place over many, many months of regular training.

Let me know if you are interested in linking up somewhere in the area to discuss further.

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:43 PM   #19
eyrie
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Perhaps the thread title should read "appropriate anti-bullying strategies and techniques using an aiki-based approach"?

I agree with the points that Kevin raised, and point you back to Janet's excellent post. There are other, more appropriate ways to deal with bullies, which do not necessarily involve having to physically "do something" to the bully.

In the majority of cases involving schoolyard bullying, the bullies almost always NEVER physically initiate the altercation. More often than not, they would verbally instigate the target in order to draw a physical response - IOW, some are savvy enough to work within the edges of the rules.

Ignatius
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:57 PM   #20
Mark Uttech
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

Onegaishimasu. I have always been of the opinion that wrist and joint locks should not be taught even to responsible teens and subteens unless you can also teach counters. There is such a phenomenon as "aikido bullies". In gassho, Mark

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Old 04-14-2009, 06:26 AM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

yeah, aiki-bullies...another topic. How many of us have been on the receiving end of some jackass that decides during cooperative practice that he is going to take you out with Nikkyo, ignoring all the other things you could do to him, but don't cause that is not the point of training?

I hate that!

Again, another topic, but certainly is an outgrowth of this topic.

Mark Uttech is correct.

It is kinda like not knowing what hand tools are all about and then you discover a hammer. You want to go around and find all the different things you can hammer and the effect the hammer has on them.

I have found wristlocks are like that. Teach one to someone that has no concept of the complete dynamic and nikkyo or kotegaeshi is the bomb!

I know I thought this way the first time I learned it. Man, I thought, this is the schizzle! It solves all my problems! bamm!

Then I ran into Mr. "I don't know aikido", but I have (insert boxed, grappled, street fight).....

and my wrist lock world came crumbling apart!

There is a whole pyschology that comes with teaching techniques without the principles and fundamentals of movement. It cost me years of my training early on!

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Old 04-14-2009, 07:11 AM   #22
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
In the majority of cases involving schoolyard bullying, the bullies almost always NEVER physically initiate the altercation. More often than not, they would verbally instigate the target in order to draw a physical response - IOW, some are savvy enough to work within the edges of the rules.
References/citations please.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:49 AM   #23
morph4me
 
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

If I'm understanding correctly you aren't qualified to be teaching wristlocks, so get someone who is. Joint locks aren't something you play with, without proper training and control a joint lock turns into a break, or tears things that you don't want torn, and in some cases cause damage that only surgery can repair, and done incorrectly, will just put you in a position to be hurt by the person you're trying to control. You don't hand tools to people who don't know how to use them properly, especially if you aren't qualified to teach them.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:23 AM   #24
Basia Halliop
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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The goals I have in mind are to keep standing, and keep the opponent standing, while preventing injury. So Wrist Locks, together with positioning footwork, seems to fulfill those goals. Have I missed other options?
You seem to have a perception that wrist locks are a soft gentle way of gently restraining someone, and comparatively easy to learn? That's not been my own experience... they mostly seem to work by forcing joints in directions they were never designed to go. They basically work by putting stresses on various joints (the one directly being manipulated, but also, through leverage, other joints e.g. elbow, shoulder). Some more than others, maybe, but from what I understand they're not mostly designed to leave someone both standing and uninjured (sometimes only one or the other...). When I've been taught them, we practice them quite carefully as it's actually kind of easy to accidentally injure someone. Personally, my worst injury in aikido was from a wrist lock that was just a tad too hard and sudden and tore something in my forearm -- a tendon, if I remember right -- and it took 6 weeks to heal, (and ice and taping and ibuprofen and physiotherapy).

Additionally, getting control of someone's hand who is actually in the middle of hitting you is not at all trivial.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:41 AM   #25
Thomas Donelson
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Re: Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
... they mostly seem to work by forcing joints in directions they were never designed to go. They basically work by putting stresses on various joints (the one directly being manipulated, but also, through leverage, other joints e.g. elbow, shoulder).

..it's actually kind of easy to accidentally injure someone. Personally, my worst injury in aikido was from a wrist lock that was just a tad too hard and sudden and tore something in my forearm -- a tendon, if I remember right -- and it took 6 weeks to heal, (and ice and taping and ibuprofen and physiotherapy).

.
Thanks for the isight that wrist locks can injure more than the wrist.

I run into parents who take their sub-teen children to Karate. I think that striking and kicking other kids is generaly a bad idea. Particulary without the options of dancing. The part of the philosphy of Aikido that is intended to foster respect and dispute resolution, can be illustrated with an Aikido wrist lock dance.

I am demonstrating writst locks to Parents and to Karagte insgtructors. I may limit my instruction to children directly, but the risk of injury would be a first topic.

Is ther a reason that Karate instructors cannot incorporate some teaching of Aikdo Energy flow for venting about problems?.

..
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